DL, MDL and naval reaction

[Ambassador]

So, I've been browsing and searching the boards, and found the following :

ORIGINAL: Alfred
[...]

In AE radar has never operated in the manner inferred from the OP it should. Been pointed out several times by devs (Symon most prominent), LoBaron and myself. All it does is aid in increasing the DL at which point I have to, once again draw attention to chapter 10 of the manual.

Note in particular s.10.1.1.1 of the manual which categorically states, and which so many refuse to accept, that the DL of a TF is set to 0, zero, nada at the start of each day and night resolution phase. A TF with a DL of 0 is not going to appear on the map at all, a TF with a DL of 1 or 2 is probably not going to be found even though the aircraft know it is out there somewhere.

[...]

Alfred

(from here : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3916123 )

This bothered me, as I have had ASW TF react to submarines, the movement obviously happening before the phase's air sequences.

The manual (section 10) explains the difference between DL and MDL.

So, maybe the answer is obvious, but does it mean it's the MDL which determines if a TF will react ? I guess so.

But then, 10.4 explains the type of ships composing the detected TF is only given (with chances of errors) for MDL >1.

So, if a sub TF has a MDL of exactly 1, does it mean ASW TF won't react ?

And as a sub TF only increases its DL by 1 for each aircraft spotting it, if there are no attacks on either side, and given MDL is halved for submarines at the start of each phase, am I right in assessing you'd need to spot the sub with 8 planes on a given day to have a chance of an ASW TF reacting the next day (and 4 planes for a night reaction) ?

[thephalanx1453]

But then, 10.4 explains the type of ships composing the detected TF is only given (with chances of errors) for MDL >1.

The question is how does a Sub TF show on the map when its MDL=1? According to the rules, it has to be visible on the map. I think it's represented by a sub symbol even at MDL=1, and ASW TFs may react to it, although I'm not sure at all.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

But then, 10.4 explains the type of ships composing the detected TF is only given (with chances of errors) for MDL >1.

The question is how does a Sub TF show on the map when its MDL=1? According to the rules, it has to be visible on the map. I think it's represented by a sub symbol even at MDL=1, and ASW TFs may react to it, although I'm not sure at all.

MDL of 1 is minimal, and I am not sure if it even narrows the location down to a single hex. Within a hex of 40NM diameter, there is a heck of a lot of water for a sub to be in. I am pretty sure an ASW TF would want more definite info before changing hexes and using the fuel.

You may not be aware, but the react routine for ASW is incomplete. An ASW TF might react several times a turn to a sub in the next hex, but it will never attack as part of the react- that part of the routine was never programmed. There is a chance that once both the sub and the ASW TF stop in the same hex that normal detection/attack could occur.

[geofflambert]

TFs operate day and night, unlike planes which do one or the other. I suppose radio intercepts and sampans blundering into one affects the DL day or night, air ASW or no.

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

You may not be aware, but the react routine for ASW is incomplete. An ASW TF might react several times a turn to a sub in the next hex, but it will never attack as part of the react- that part of the routine was never programmed. There is a chance that once both the sub and the ASW TF stop in the same hex that normal detection/attack could occur.

This.

ASW TFs don't react to attack. They react, and if, oh, by the way, there's a sub in the same hex they may attack.

[Lowpe]

Do a forum search, we have beat ASW reactions to death.

[thephalanx1453]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
MDL of 1 is minimal, and I am not sure if it even narrows the location down to a single hex.

I have no idea about ASW, or reaction routines, but I'm fairly sure that subs at MDL=1 show up on the map as a sub symbol in the correct hex. The reason for this is the option of turning FoW off is making everything having a minimum MDL of 1, and you can see all the previously undetected subs now show up in the correct hex, with a sub icon.

[Lowpe]

How do 2 subs in a task force show up?

[RangerJoe]

On TF, size two. You may not see the type depending upon the DL.

[rustysi]

Here's one on ASW 'reacting'.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... sw%2Creact&#

[rustysi]

And here's another which seems to show an attack, but as another forumite pointed out it was a response to a failed sub attack.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... sw%2Creact&#

[rustysi]

So the ASW TF is 'picking' up something in the code such that if follows the sub, but never attacks. The code for that was never written according to the 'Devs'.

[thephalanx1453]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So the ASW TF is 'picking' up something in the code such that if follows the sub, but never attacks. The code for that was never written according to the 'Devs'.

Are all "sub vs surface" combat the result of submarines deciding to attack the TF?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

ORIGINAL: rustysi

So the ASW TF is 'picking' up something in the code such that if follows the sub, but never attacks. The code for that was never written according to the 'Devs'.

Are all "sub vs surface" combat the result of submarines deciding to attack the TF?

No.

[rustysi]

As said above, no.

[thephalanx1453]

Interesting.

Reading the manual p.131-132, it seems to say that
First, combat has to be initiated by submarine affected by following factors
1. Sub’s maximum speed
2. TF’s cruise speed
3. Sub crew’s experience
4. Prior detection of the sub

Then, within that combat sequence
1. Escorts have a chance to detect sub early
2. Sub attack (if not detected during previous step)
3. Sub dive to escape
4. Escort attack

Manual says nothing about surface ships initiating combat against subs. If they do, then what are the parameters that govern the chance of surface TFs initiating combat against a sub in the same hex?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

Interesting.

Reading the manual p.131-132, it seems to say that
First, combat has to be initiated by submarine affected by following factors
1. Sub’s maximum speed
2. TF’s cruise speed
3. Sub crew’s experience
4. Prior detection of the sub

Then, within that combat sequence
1. Escorts have a chance to detect sub early
2. Sub attack (if not detected during previous step)
3. Sub dive to escape
4. Escort attack

Manual says nothing about surface ships initiating combat against subs. If they do, then what are the parameters that govern the chance of surface TFs initiating combat against a sub in the same hex?

What does the manual say about sub on sub attacks?

Also, why bother with ASW task forces?

Since you seem not to be satisfied with my answers, I will not respond to your questions any more.

[thephalanx1453]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


What does the manual say about sub on sub attacks?

Manual says that subs can initiate combat against subs unless both are submerged.

Also, why bother with ASW task forces?

That's what I'm wondering also. I'd just like to know what are the parameters that govern the chance of surface TFs initiating combat against a sub. The reverse situation is clearly described in the manual, so I thought that it would be too.

[RangerJoe]

.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

And here's another which seems to show an attack, but as another forumite pointed out it was a response to a failed sub attack.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... sw%2Creact&#

Thanks for the links.

When an ASW TF enter a hex with a sub, don’t they have a chance to detect it and increase its DL ? Doesn’t that increase the odds of attacking during the movement phase ?


ÉDIT: and now I have read them. I have the feel the source of the confusion is semantics - I don’t care if they move during the Naval Reaction or Naval Movement phase, as long as they move and end up attacking the subs (and whether it’s after a failed sub attack or not, and not as part of the « reaction », is not really relevant either, as the point is to get them to attack).

I’m sad to see the lack of attacks doesn’t stem from a will to make attacking subs hard to do, as would be historical, but from a lack of code.