A Squad Leader Challenge

[ravinhood]

Yes, I see what you mean now, in that game that I beat myself in of Combat Mission, at the very end I did a study to see what would happen if I rushed all my men out of the secruity and defense of the woods toward a large house with MG's and infantry stacked inside. Interesting conclusion....this is not a wise tactic! Audy Murphy was not in my unit order of battle this game! lol

[New York Jets]

You guys ever hear of VASL (Virtual Advanced Squad Leader). Heres a link.

http://www.vasl.org/

Check it out. I have not played VASL, but am an old ASL grognard.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Chris, are your setting set to view signatures?

Just wondering

[New York Jets]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Chris, are your setting set to view signatures?

Just wondering

OOps! I just noticed the link in your sig line. Oh, well.

[MARKUSS]

As someone involved in the historical research for Armies of Oblivion, among others, I have to say that the prices would be even higher if MMP had to pay a fair market price for the research work done by myself and others - we do it on the cheap (free copyof the game, and nothing else - not even postage / photocopying costs, let alone remuneration for the time involved) because we want to see it done as accurately as possible. This is not a complaint, so please do not cue violin music, just a cold statement of fact. Research is also fun, ditto helping others.

The only consolation for gamers who think the price steep (and that would include me if I had to pay for all the games too - those I had little or no involvement in of course cost me full whack in Sterling plus import tax and what you lot call sales tax = about the dollar figure expressed in pounds Sterling - oouch!) is that, apart from the historical modules based around specific battles or campaigns, this should complete the modules on the different forces oif WW2.

I have to say I get far more enjoyment from playing Steel Panthers and doing my own scenarios for it - when I work out how to post these I might even export some.

regards


Charles

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I know exactly what you are saying Markuss. I am unaware if there were ANY paid persons involved with the creation of MC-SE for Steel Panthers, and I am not saying I begrudge any that might have been one single penny if they were financially rewarded.

I know I contributed my portion of effort, and did it long before the suggestion or mention of anything in return occurred. I knew in advance my ownly payment might be to see my name on the credits page. But frankly sharing the same space with some of the other names there, was an extremely desirable honour in my opinion.

That I gained praise from some of the names I look up to, was indeed pleasing beyond any financial reward.

I had a local friend, one not at all involved in wargaming in any capacity, inquire why I wasn't being paid though. He said Les consultants earn good money normally. Expertise doesn't come cheap routinely.
All I could tell him, was I did it for the love of the hobby. David Heath's gift to the members of the team exceeded my personal expectations too.

But to comment on the cost of Armies of Oblivion, my own previously mentioned comments on this matter (in places more geared to ASL discussion), is more a reflection of shock due to past experiences with ASL purchases. I am sure ASL has not gotten easier to research over the last decade, but the cost of a module has risen by such an extreme margin as to defy calling it just inflation.
I currently own the modules that comprise the Allied/Axis Minors where infantry are concerned. But I do not own the two vehicle oriented Allied/Axis minors modules due to extrreme price increases. They are just not possible like they used to be.
Sadly, I have had to conclude, that contrary to the possible majority of the ASL community, that a module giving me Polish Armour or Hungarian Armour, is simply not worth well over 100 bucks apiece.

While the Allied and Axis minor nations fought bravely I am sure, they are of no pivotal value in achieving a "completely adequate" WW2 squad level wargame.
I think the need for them has not been handled wisely with regards to actual end result costs.

If in the end, the modules primary purpose was to give the ASLer Allied and Axis vehicle counters, then every possible means to do so is valid, but every additional cost should have been ruthless cut away.
The modules were a bad place to insert boards and scenarios. The item would have been better served as a source of counters and no more.

But in the end, it's MMP that is making them, and MMP's right to choose how.
Being told, you can advance order sans boards is to me, an after thought that doesn't see the purpose of doing so in the first place. The cost to produce the boards the scenarios all that goes beyond just getting the counters out, only inflates the final cost.

It is sad, but when I bought ASL, a board was NOT a 12 dollar item. 4 boards in a box is a great error if they serve no vital purpose. Let the player decide if that specific board is important to their needs.

But anyway, the bottom line is, when I bought for instance the Paratrooper module, a minor item at best, something not intrinsically important to the game, something that could be ignored with no loss of functionality, it cost me in the area of 30 bucks brand new. 30 bucks is my idea of the value of an item I don't genuinely need, but could use. Maybe 45 if the item possessed enough new counter art. 112 bucks is in my opinion a product killing price tag.
I am sure there are a good handful that will buy it, ASLers are to alarge extent largely singularly unique fanatics after all hehe.

But when you consider the cost of a minor module being 112 bucks, it has become abundantly clear, that someone is not genuinely thinking in terms of how do I make this product marketable.

In spite of the value of the research that went into making Armies of Oblivion, short of some genrous soul giving it to me, I highly doubt it will ever be obtained by myself. 112 bucks is just waaaaaay out of the realm of acceptable (regardless of how many ways people can infer the worth of that sum of cash measured against numerous other forms of entertainment expense).

MC-SE delivers and incredible experience, and was the lavish efforts of many, who worked quite hard. But it was not priced over 100 bucks when finished. In fact, a complete set of MCs would likely cost less than Armies of Oblivion.

If MMP can't master this problem of excessive expense level, they may well be residing over the failing and fading away of the game in time.
There is only ever going to be so many people willing to pay that sort of price level for a game system.

When they release Combat Leader here at Matrix Games, it might well signal the downfall of the ASL experience in favour of playing the same basic experience on a computer screen. I currently consider Steel Panthers so close to playing ASL, that I have not gotten around yet to mastering VASL out of a lack of need.

[Hydrargyrum]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

But to comment on the cost of Armies of Oblivion, my own previously mentioned comments on this matter (in places more geared to ASL discussion), is more a reflection of shock due to past experiences with ASL purchases. I am sure ASL has not gotten easier to research over the last decade, but the cost of a module has risen by such an extreme margin as to defy calling it just inflation.

When they release Combat Leader here at Matrix Games, it might well signal the downfall of the ASL experience in favour of playing the same basic experience on a computer screen. I currently consider Steel Panthers so close to playing ASL, that I have not gotten around yet to mastering VASL out of a lack of need.

Even in the short time I've been playing ASL I've seen some odd price increases. I was fortunate enough to get the BV/RB module before it vanished. It was cheaper than AoO is slated to be and I probably don't have to tell you all the "goodies" in it. I can't comment on the "good ol' days" of wargaming as I'm still a "kid" according to the guys I play ASL with.

There are a few folks that are into the VASL gizmo in the group. I've just never been drawn into learning how to use it. I'm lucky enough to have a fairly active ASL group for F2F games. Plus Steel Panthers is, as you said, just about as good as the real thing. If ASL was ever equated to computer I'm sure some folks would use it, I know I would. But I feel that the older crowd would keep on trucking.

[Reiryc]

but I'm wondering how many SL/ASL fans out there realize that there have been 3 seperate commercial attempts at making a computerized version of Avalon Hill's Squad Leader, and that in each case the final product was so dramatically different as to not even remotely resemble the original plan and goals

Beyond squad leader was not an attempt to make a computerized version of SL/ASL...

The goal was to make something different but based upon the squad leader concept, squad level battles with influential leader units. So it wasn't a true attempt to make a computerized version of the game.

[MARKUSS]

I can't disagree with anything you've said.

The British revamp, retitled For King and Country {uugh! I an a fervernt anti-monarchist] has some new data in it thanks to some recent research by self and others, but to include some old boards that most peoiple already have, and a lot of reworked scenarios (when dozens of new ones are there for publication) is a great shame.

The aim should be to keep the price as low as possible in all cases. I do not think it is a good marketing strategy to offer old wine in new bottles, and successfully used this argument when MMP were simply going to reprint the old British counters and notes, with nothing tangible to offer save a new box. At least there are some changes - though the PzKfW IIIs especially are over-rated with fast turret traverse (ditto all the German and Soviet OB)...

Regards


Charles