A Squad Leader Challenge

[Veldor]

Not to resurrect a tired old debate, but I'm wondering how many SL/ASL fans out there realize that there have been 3 seperate commercial attempts at making a computerized version of Avalon Hill's Squad Leader, and that in each case the final product was so dramatically different as to not even remotely resemble the original plan and goals. Surely no boardgame design has ever suffered as big an insult as this. What does this say about the design? That its just not cut out to be computerized directly? Or is it somehow so inspiring as to have spawned 2 masterpieces and one pile of shit?

BTW can anyone name ALL 3 games?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Sorry Les, but the judges said you were not allowed to enter this contest due to unfair advantage...

Ahh man damnit

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Sorry Les, but the judges said you were not allowed to enter this contest due to unfair advantage...

Ahh man damnit

For extra credit state the original titles of the two "masterpieces"... And which one in its original form most closely resembled the board game (Using the original name).

[Hertston]

The games are Close Combat, Combat Mission and (ahem) Squad Leader. I've no idea what the original titles of the first two were, and will be interested to find out.

There's no reason a direct port wouldn't work (the Squad Battles series has come closest), but I doubt anyone thought that sort of game would get the sales the "Squad Leader" label would otherwise ensure. They were probably right.

[ShermanM4]

Not to resurrect a tired old debate, but I'm wondering how many SL/ASL fans out there realize that there have been 3 seperate commercial attempts at making a computerized version of Avalon Hill's Squad Leader, and that in each case the final product was so dramatically different as to not even remotely resemble the original plan and goals. Surely no boardgame design has ever suffered as big an insult as this. What does this say about the design? That its just not cut out to be computerized directly? Or is it somehow so inspiring as to have spawned 2 masterpieces and one pile of ****?

BTW can anyone name ALL 3 games?


Oh I dont know, I think Hasbro Interactives "Avalon Hill's Squad Leader" was the start of something good. At least the X-Com engine allowed for turnbased plays; you could individually equip and operate each man. Just too bad that the final product looked like it was still in development. I feel kinda dumb now because I did not even realize that the CC series was inspired by SL.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

To boldly state all things stateable.

Ok in the beginning there was Squad Leader. Well actually truth be known, if you look hard enough, you can find that even Squad Leader was based off of another game just a bit earlier, that merely never went anywhere. Bonus credit to any that can dig into the mists of time to identify it.

Then Squad Leader began to evolve with its 3 gamettes (gamettes what an unlikely term eh).
Then it morphed into ASL.
Which then further morphed into Deluxe ASL and even with some awesome lead miniatures.
And not to stand still continued on with Solitaire ASL and Historical ASL.

There was Up Front, which sure was connected with Squad Leader, but converted to the novelty of using cards. It also had 2 modules.

Hasbro tried to make Squad Leader into a computer game involving individuals in a very dumb copy cat attempt to scam some cash from the computer wargaming market.
And was a dismal example of supreme corporate arrogance coupled with stupidity.

Close Combat was not really Squad Leader, but featured small groups of men in squads and individual vehicles and guns enough that it looked enough alike no one cares. In real time, you got the chance to play the sort of game Squad Leader is, but with the frantic pace of command savvy.

Steel Panthers perhaps the closest at being Squad Leader, being a 2d game of superb graphics and outstanding attention to individual unit detail. But it misses out on being a clone by a few percentage points.

Combat Mission, is close enough to merit mention. But being a 3d game, and Squad Leader was always logically 2d as it was a board game after all. Combat Mission is no closer to looking like Squad Leader than is Up Front.

Interesting mention is the Campaign series. While not as close to Squad Leader as is Steel Panthers, it is nevertheless a fairly close approximation. And it is a different experience from game to game.

Special mention tot he JASL program, as it is technically meriting comment, as it combines the computer and Squad Leader.
As well as the VASL program, which makes ASL quite literally into a computer option.

Squad Battles was mentioned, but having not had any personal experience with the software, I must mention it, but do so blindly.

[ShermanM4]

Squad Battles was mentioned, but having not had any personal experience with the software, I must mention it, but do so blindly.

That is a comma splice young man![:D]

What is squad battles?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I beat on commas like they was an errant slave heheh

Here is a link to an atypical HPS Squad battles example.

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/S ... gStrk.html

Again, I know of them, just never had one.

[Veldor]

Beyond Squad Leader ..... became ..... Close Combat
Computer Squad Leader ..... became ..... Combat Mission
Avalon Hill's Squad Leader ..... became ..... One of the lowest rated computer wargames in history

Interestingly enough, Combat Mission was entitled "Computer Squad Leader" for a very long time and though they don't advertise the fact as much these days (Perhaps a bit due to Avalon Hill's negative PC Game reputation) Big Time Software (ie Battlefront.com) is actually in some ways pretty much half of the computer division of Avalon Hill in the later days. As they did for Avalon Hill such titles as Flight Commander 2, Over the Reich and Achtung! Spitfire and perhaps some others my memory is not allowing me to remember. Well that was their roots anyway, Avalon Hill, Until Computer Squad Leader came along.

Combat Mission in its early days came far closer to Squad Leader than did Close Combat, though due to copyright issues after the "strategic differences" with Avalon Hill they almost puposefully (or legally) had made it nearly unidentifiable as to its origins. It was even suppose to originally share certain scenarios and so forth. Interestingly, the project was called "Computer Squad Leader" for some time after the split with Avalon Hill perhaps while they came up with the current name.

Avalon Hill's Squad Leader (The PC Version) spent a small time on the drawing board as a serious attempt at converting the boardgame. About 5 minutes later they realized the only thing better than exploiting one acquisition was exploiting two. So having recently acquired Microprose, they made the game "Soldiers at War 2" and just renamed it Squad Leader. For some reason they didnt bother to fix any of the bugs that the original game had. Nor did they improve the graphics, or the A.I. or anything. All they ended up doing is making an ok game much much worse. In fact, to this day, the reviews of this game are some of the most interesting you will ever read about any wargame ever IMHO. To quote David Miller at Intelligamer.com "This is a very, very, really mega ultra bad game. Oh yes, yes... it is very, very bad. Let me emphasize: bad. And not in a good way. Oh bad, bad, bad. I had to get that out of my system.....Need I reiterate? This game is bad, bad, bad. I have played a lot of computer and video games, some of them really awful, but this is the worst ever. Ever. That is really bad. And the sad fact is that all of the companies associated with it seem to agree, you can't find a mention of the game on the Random Games, Microprose, or Hasbro Interactive web sites anywhere..... Don't even think about fishing this bottom feeder out of the bargain bin."

I mean how truly awful does a game have to be for all of those involved to almost immediately pretend as if they had nothing whatsoever to do with it?

Given that I think WWII tactical is still the most popular type of wargame out there IMHO I think there is still plenty of room for a more direct and serious translation of SL/ASL. Perhaps not in the near future, but someday.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

To the best of my knowledge, I think Close Assault, will be an evolution (almost directly) of the Close Combat game basically, but married to the same basic software as Combat Leader.

It is sad that it is a well known, but singularly fringe effort at Matrix Games (Close Assault). One look at its forums tells an almost dismal reality. It has all but fallen off the radar, it is far enough out of sight, that no one is even discussing it any more.

Combat Leader appears to be an in house favourite, that has no real reason to be considered an any time soon project. And Close Assault is assumed to be a project that won't appear until AFTER Combat Leader.

It is a shame. Because in spite of a decent following of Combat Mission devotees, I think a reborn Close Combat in the form of Close Assault, would give Combat Mission a need to put out genuine effort to keep its lead. 3d would not be enough.
I am perfectly certain that seeing Combat Leader arrive would be a significant boost to Matrix Games's wargaming community, most of which are basically Steel Panthers fans if they have been here 3 or more years now.

While Matrix Games has several good games to its credit, the fact remains, Combat Leader remains an unfullfilled promise at this time. Each month that passes without it, is a negative if it is anything.

I don't wish to see it released until it is actually ready, but getting it ready is indeed a worthy cause.

I am first and last a Squad Leader player.
I am only actually a computer wargamer because of Matrix Games and its release of Steel Panthers World at War.
I am only interested in SPWaW due to its remarkable similarities to Squad Leader. Similaritites that are not merely vaguely reminicent, but almost literal translations.
When I get past notions like a tank can't drive in reverse direction in Steel Panthers, I get hard pressed to find worth while differences eh.

I don't foresee any day I will require ASL actually being made a computer wargame. What would be the point. A much more sane person gets the real game, and gets a copy of VASL.
Why accept a substitute when you can have the real thing?

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: ShermanM4

What is squad battles?

A series of squad level PC wargames from the HPS/John Tiller stable. Very much "paper and counters" style which may or may not be a plus for you, but I'm a big fan of them, personally.

There are two Vietnam games, one Korean, and East Front, West Front and Pacific (2) WW2 games.

HPS Simulations


BTW, did anyone else play "Soldiers at War" ? Much more X-Com styled turn based than anything resembling ASL, but really enjoyed it. Much better than "Squad Leader", although that wasn't exactly difficult.

[ravinhood]

What about Typhoon of Steel and Kampfgroupe and Battlegroup? Les you seem to forget these were the lead-ins to Steel Panthers, they were out way before Steel Panthers hit the scene.

Personally though I would like to see a computerized board game of Squad Leader, just like the board game and a half way decent AI to play against. This new age of graphics sells and content comes 2nd really troubles me. I don't need little men shooting imaginary bullets for my eyes. I'd rather see that time spent creating and AI that is exceptional to the 1980's AI, when AI was better than graphics.

I recently pulled out my old SSI Gettysburg, Shilo and Battles of Napolean and with DOSBOX got them to run on my screaming machine. I have to say these are enjoyable experiences of the battles, with as good of an AI as there is today if not better. Battles of Napolean is one of my favorites still, and with the random battle creator, it was a game before it's time.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Computerised Squad Leader exists actually Ravinhood, its called VASL

With an AI though, I think JASL is as close as it has come.

For the record, I only have a few older games in my inventory ie Kampfruppe, but only as a result of ownng compilation sets. So essentially, my computer wargaming began with Steel Panthers, and does not really predate 1995 much.

I had bought Patton Stikes Back on a lark before I was fully interested in computer wargaming, but most titles that go back earlier than 1995 are either unknown to me, or possessing graphics to far back in time, or possessing interfaces to way to non Windows friendly for my interest level.

Most of computer wargaming experienced a lot of graphical and interface revolutions between 95 and 2000.

A lot of pre Steel Panthers game though, were more akin to Panzer Leader than Squad Leader for action.
Of the older designs, Tanks is still the only one I still spend any amount of time wondering how it runs under modern computer set ups. What is nice, is Tanks is still every bit playable.

[ravinhood]

My you are a youngster then Les if you only go back to 1995 computer wargaming. I became interested in computer wargaming when KNIGHTS of the DESERT came out for the C=64 back in 1982 on a CASSETTE TAPE mind you! lol It played simular to Avalon Hills Africa Korp, with of course more data per unit because it was a computer game. I must say, for a 1982 version of a computer wargame, the AI was quite a challenge, it played very much true to the actual history in many ways. I found myself short of supply just before reaching Alexandria, gotta love that part, and watched myself get pushed back to Bengazi and then to Tripoli. lol Then of course came Battle for Nomandy (omaho beach/ d-day) and TIGERS in the SNOW (battle of the bulge) for the C=64, these I had upgraded to 5-1/4 floppy disc player.

A really cute beer and pretzels game called Operation Crusaders was kind of fun, very basic, but, pretty close to realism except for the dates, seems the allies had too much of an advantage and Paris could be taken pretty early in the game.

Then we saw Kampfgruppe and Battlegroup, then the SSI Civil War games, and Battles of Napolean, then Typhoon of Steel and dang if I can ever recall that European one something like Panthers of Steel or something or other, it actually came out before Typhoon of Steel, but, I'm a Pacific war fanatic anyways. Anyway those were and are practially identical to STEEL PANTHERS in the way you create a campaign company, the graphics are only different as far as I can see from the games, all of them made by the same person. Cept I think Koger had a hand in some of the SSI programs, but, I'd have to pull out the manuals to be sure. Mostly though it was Grisby, Koger and Landry games for that time period that were great computer wargames. I just got finished getting smoked by the AI in Dave Landrys "WAR of the LANCE", I ran out of time....thas unusual, lol.

I haven't played a lot of STEEL PANTHERS v8.1 yet, but, if the AI is as easy to push over as the origional STEEL PANTHERS III, it's not going to rate highly on my games to play list. Already in my first game I wiped out the AI before half the scenario was over. But, i'm prone to use random generated games vs scenarios, perhaps that makes a difference?

A lot of people tout graphics, graphics and more graphics, but, to me these games of the 80's had enough graphics and AI's that would challenge even the most hardcore, on higher settings of course.

Now tell me about this JASL? What is it? Where can I get it? And it does have a computer AI correct? I've seen the prices for ASL on ebay and I'm not going to pay $300 - $400 to play one wargame, even with all the scenarios, that is just rediculous to me. I'll pay something in the range of $39.99 to maybe, maybe $59.99 if the game is superb, but, after that uh uh, no game is worth that much really. It's hard enough paying $39.99 for them. heh, that's why mostly I buy from ebay now. Good games at reduced prices.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

JASL is a program made by a fan for the most part.

http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/

"Youngster" hehe now that is a funny notion

Actually my time in with computer wargaming doesn't go back a long way, but I was basically a wargamer long before most of wargaming existed.
I got into it with Tactics II the board game.

When I started, there was no such thing as a computer wargame (regardless of how quaint looking it might seem now ).

I only got drawn into computer wargaming when the visual experience was impossible to ignore. The early pre Steel Panthers wargames for computer were in my opinion, mostly insufficient to entice a hard core board gamer.

The downside of ASL is clearly the price tag. But when you consider, that a large swath of ASL fanatics could care less about any other wargame in existence. And when you consider they would not balk at the price, as it is the only thing they would be spending money on at any rate.

I have a friend that recently spent 700 on a video card upgrade. And it was mainly to play a specific game. We all expend odd sums on our pet passions eventually.

My main gripe with ASL as it stands today, is the 1980's prices I recall for 1st Edition items, is soooooo way different from 2004 prices of the here and now.
The latest item out Armies of Oblivion, going for 112 bucks, would have sold for half that when I was buying the 1st Edition items.
Inflation I can deal with to a point. But anyone looking to amass what I have sitting upstairs, better have deep pockets.

[ravinhood]

Well like I said in another post, my first board wargame that I purchased Stalingrad by Avalon Hill was $3.64 + tax from Treasure City. So inflation has hit all aspects of life, funny though the common wage sure hasn't. I also had Tactics II, but, it didn't get played very much because of all the other board wargames Avalon hill was putting out by 1968 when I first got into board wargaming. Guadacanal was one of my all time favorites. Along with Midway when my friend let me be the Americans. heh That's something I would like to see in modern day computer wargames is some good recreations of those two games. I've seen HPS's version and wasn't impressed, it's individual battles instead of the whole campaign as far as Guadacanal was concerned. The last best Midway type computer game I played was by SSI, "Carrier Force" with laminated maps even, just like they did for their Civil War games. SSG's "Carriers at War" wasn't bad, but, I still enjoyed Carrier Force better, because it was hex based and you did all the searching for the Japanese Fleet.

Do you have any of the American Heritage games? Broadsides? Battle Cry? Dogfight? Battle Cry is still my favorite, very beer and pretzels type chess match moreso than a Civil war game, but, fun no less.

You are right about how much one will sink into their hobby, while I wouldn't spend $300-$400 on a single game, I've spent that and 10x that probably in my computer gaming hobby over 20 years! heh What drives me to like and enjoy computer wargaming the most is that the computer keeps up with all the record keeping, the rules, and gives me more of my play time to play instead of calculate and read the rule book time and time again to clarify something. And once, if ever the computer AI becomes HARDCORE like many of us are, then and only then will computer wargaming reign supreme I think.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

To me, the computer where wargaming is concerned, has done more to support wargaming, than actually allow me to play it.

This forum, the ability to get fast instant reviews, the opportunity to purchase and disregard where I might actally live, these have all mattered to me more than the percieved capacity to gain an opponent.
I don't actually find the online opponent option superior to FTF. But with FTF one has to get off their butts and out the door to actually meet people. And that in a nutshell is a lot to ask of people in 2004 it appears. I guess I am lucky in that respect. I have never found it difficult to approach complete strangers and chat them up. It's just part of my nature.

I like the computer more so with the biggie wargames for the obvious reason. Setting up a game of ASL is nothing, setting up a game of Fire in the East is another matter altogether hehe. For me it isn't about an electronic opponent, its just a space based convenience.
That would explain my lack of over all interest in AIs in a lot of cases. I am used to playing solo, and as such don't consider playing both sides in hotseat mode a burden.
Actually, I think hotseat mode is more valuable than a competent AI, as with hotseat mode, I can get past certain design hassles that might foil solo preference in a board game.

ASL is perhaps one of the very few games, where the rules system is just complicated enough now (with ASL), that it might not be so bad having a computer kept track of the rules.
Although I must state, that if the wargame is made in any manner similar to classic board games, then the rules are not a problem at least for me personally. Too many years learning board games. The basics are usually common to most board games, as it is rarely worth it to completely reinvent the wheel just for the sake of doing it.

[ravinhood]

How can you or do you play hotseat games against yourself Les, when there is a "Fog of War" feature in the game? You know you know where your units are on both sides, that's why I've always had a hard time playing hotseat against myself.

I like Combat Missions series, and I like it because of that FOG of WAR effect it has, and it'd be great to play a hotseat game on both sides, but, I know where I'm at and what I'm going to do on both sides. It's sort of like no challenge, when I know the tactics and strategy of myself. It would be like being a telepath and playing against anyone or anything, lol, I would know the strategies and tactics they were thinking and always get accused of cheating! lol

Although I did play one game of Combat Mission against myself and I did crush myself! lol It basically just came down to which side had the better units, not so much strategy or tactics.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

How can you or do you play hotseat games against yourself Les, when there is a "Fog of War" feature in the game? You know you know where your units are on both sides, that's why I've always had a hard time playing hotseat against myself.

The trick is to be schizophrenic. Best is if your a bit like Golum and your dark side can play the "evil" Germans whilst your happy-go-lucky side plays the "dimwitted" Americans.

Another workable solution is to suffer from Alzheimer's so that you've already forgotten what the plans were for the current side your playing not to mention the opposing side!

Lastly is the old "roll the dice" trick. "Hmm, if I roll a 1 that means I'll ..."

I suppose you could also try to get a loved one to make a few of the most important calls and I've heard tales of some people even employing pets with boardgames though, from my experience, they violate unit movement limitations often and are somewhat prone to flipping the entire board over if you fail to give them enough needed attention (Then again some loved ones probably do that as well)....

Seriously though, IMHO I think hot-seat is primarily for learning a game or testing out a specific strategy. In that later way it can be quite interesting and challenging somewhat akin to testing a Chess strategy wherein you purposefully manuever the opponent you are also playing into a particular situation so as to determine if an strategy you have for dealing with such a situation has any merit or not.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Lousy memory and housework does amazing things for some games if the game models FOG already like say Strategic Command.

Play a turn, then hit done turn. Then get up do something for 5 minutes like some general clean up.

Come back play next turn. And if you are like me, you won't have memorised the other side at any rate hehe.

Side benefit, your place looks great, and your wife could care less if you wargame all darned day hehe.

This doesn't work on board games sadly. There you have to resort to just refusing to take it in any other way than as a serious study. This works fine for monster size wargames, where it is more about sound thinking than blind chances. Because there is usually only a few real choices, and then you add a dose of random element through the dice. So I have no trouble with this for The Longest Day or a Europa series game.

You have to get off yer butt and find players for games like Up Front though, as it is basically like a game of poker.