Japanese Pilot Training

[Nikademus]

its not a matter of coming up with a 'realistic' #. The central problem is that the "production" of pilots represented by the pilot pool in game terms are "free" pilots. They dont require add'l training but more signifigantly, they dont require supply or AvGas to be expended in order for their training to have proceeded, a very important factor and limitation that dogged the Japanese.

Thats why Mogami first suggested eliminating the pool, and its a suggestion i am largely in agreement with. I think it would be better to have larger starting pools of "trained" pilots to represent the pilots of the immediate classes and those of at least part of 42. That way the pool would not be so quickly exhausted and would give both services some "paddage" to use in the early battles. By the same token a small trickle of pilots received monthly is not undesirable but it should remain small because of the 'free' factor.

Remember too that once exhausted, that doesn't mean complete untrained newbees are immediately received. Starting exp for non-pool pilots is based on the year they are received, only the pool itself is 'fixed'.

Lastly, there is no distinction between fighter pilots, bomber or search plane pilots. A pilot is a pilot is a pilot in the game. Hence the issue becomes more complicated still. A fighter only requires 1 pilot.....a Level bomber can require a half dozen or more trained indiviuals in addition to the pilot.

Mogami's suggestion on Japanese strategy is daunting....but in economic terms it is the most realistic.....because it both requires time, management, and most of all......supply to train.

[mogami]

Hi, How much gasoline is required to give one pilot 150 hours flight training?

Lets say 10 gallons per hour x150 hours equals 1500 gallons per pilot x 2500 pilots per month 3,750,000 gallons per month 45,000,000 gallons per year. OK make it 1 gallon per hour. 4,500,000 gallons per year just to train pilots to 1/3 of pre war.
I've approached this from every angle in the development forum and I think the unlimited pilots with yearly ratings is the best way.
currently 1941=60 (so all excess pilots are 30) 1943=55 (so all excess pilots are 27) 1944=50 (so all excess pilots are 25)
The player is going to have to improve history on his own and on the map. Japan is getting a lot of free experiance in the current system.

currently Japan gets an unlimited number of pilots free of charge. Even these 30 experiance pilots cost Japan a considerable amount (all they could afford).
(I think Joel will laugh his butt off when he reads this post after all my comments in private) I've thought long on this subject (since I consider it the single most critical event of Japanese production) The other day I tried to post in WITP supply terms what training 2500 pilots per month would cost Japan (I mean fully training) the 30 pilots was a monthy expense of 34,000 supply. (So training 2500 pilots would be a monthly expense of of over a million supply.) (that was at 3 points per pilot per day after a year you have 30,000 pilots always in training (at 12 levels)
Be happy Gary does not charge you supply for each and every pilot you use.

[Brady]

So, An Emily will take two piolets from the pool posably? A kate one, but certainly not 3 to make up her crew right? Aircrew dont count toward the piolet pool right?

I think what I am seeing and corect me please if I am misunderstanding this, is that while Historicaly Japan did turn out on average a few thousand trained piolets and aircrew per month (Army and Navy combined hear), That the game only alows for 30 free piolets per month for both services.

Acording to what I have read The Navy clearly turned out what could arguably be the Best trained Naval avaitors in the world well into 42, and even from then into very late 43 only a minimal drop in total traing time was imparted on their training, and the one on one instructers were changed to 6 on one, this is still a very high leval of traing, we dont see a big drop realy until 44 and even then it is not that big a deal. They should all be free imo, all the piolets should arive from the initial traing at the same leval of experance, whatever that may be, and then receave adational traing in their types and units in the field as Mogami sugests. And this was realy how it worked in Japanes units, at least as much as was posable, the green piolets were slowly introduced to combat.

[mogami]

Hi, each aircraft requires 1 pilot. Aircrew is the same experiance as the pilot but not tracked.
All Japanese pilots are free. 30 per month are free and fully trained. The rest are free but only half the fully trained experiance. (The more you use per month in excess of the trained pilots the lower their experiance gets.)
I don't think Japan ever had a month where 2500 fully trained pilots were added to the pool. (It simply costs too much) in order to start from scratch Japan would need to train 76,000 pilots. (the number of aircraft she built) The war lasted 46 months. (1,652 per month) Now many of these aircraft were given to pilots who were already flying another aircraft. (a replacement for his current aircraft or an upgrade to a new aircraft)
Many were given to pilots with 150 hours or less. 2,500 is a dream and it might be 2,500 aircrew were trained per month (of which 100-200 were pilots)
Certainly the 30 per month is too low in 1941 and 1942. However I think asking for free pilots given that the war is about Japanese production is unfair to the Allied player. I think there should be a supply cost to train pilots and the only way this is possible in WITP is to train them on map.

You know I am 7 hours into my Beta PBEM turn 1 as Japan.?

[Brady]

A couple things to remember hear as we discuss this:

2500 is a rough estimate of the NAVY (Not Army)aircrew, it only refers to new inducties, not those drawn from withen the service as many were, nore the Oficers who were trained seperatly:

p.9: "During the 1937-45 war , some 18,900 Yokern of all classses were killed in action out of 241,463 entering trainess. (This figure does not include the old Sohren programe priour to its incorperation into the Hei-Class Yokaren, or any of he commissioned Officer programs"

About 20% of the entering number did not finish the programe in the prewar years, howeaver it should be noted that Pre war traing included up two 3 years of schooling before Flight traing was undertaken, during the war it was was around 1 year of classes before the flight traing was undertaken(and most admited made it). Pre war 200 to 500 hours of flight traing was the norm before the trainie was sent to a unit. During the war this was around 200 unit till 44 then it droped to about 150 hours. Also apon entering flight traing the men were divided into specific traing groups for the plane type they were to fly, Float plane, Atack, Fighter, ect...

The flight training part of their education lasted for 10 to 12 months, during which they got on avaerage 200 hours of flight time, the first 6 months was on initial flight traing whil the last 6 was on operationaly types advanced training. This was the routine in 41 (12 months on average) and in 42 and 43 (10 months on average). In 44 it droped to about 6 months of traing on average.

It should also be Noted that WiTP does not model the entire Japanese ecenomy, we dont have to bother witth the traing of Calvery troops and the nightmear that feading all those horses and acquiring them was, nore the traing of tank crews, paratroppers ect...


Regreatably I do not have a decent referance for the Army piolet traing programe, though I belave it was certainly larger.

[mogami]

Hi, You do have to feed your Cav and if you don't want to train your LCU thats your business. I plan on training mine.

To train a land combat unit:
Unit must have objective selected
Unit must be at objective
Unit must have 100 prep points.
Unit will train up to 70 (I believe)
Unit will eat supply (whether it is training or not.)

Having a million men out of supply provides less combat power then having 200,000 in supply. (Gee wonder if Allied player should put Japan out of supply before invading any target?)

[mogami]

p.9: "During the 1937-45 war , some 18,900 Yokern of all classses were killed in action out of 241,463 entering trainess. (This figure does not include the old Sohren programe priour to its incorperation into the Hei-Class Yokaren, or any of he commissioned Officer programs"

Hi I think you can use this to interpolate the number of pilots trained. 410 pilots were killed per month. Japan suffered a shortage of pilots with only 410 being killed per month means they were training fewer then 410 pilots per month. (There remains that prewar cadre of trained pilots to draw from for a while. When it is gone the less trained pilots become replacements. The quality declines over time. While I cannot assign a number based on this statement I can say the number is less then 410 trained pilots per month
(avg for 46 months) (there might be a month 2500 pilots were added. However there would also be 6 months where 0 pilots were added.)

[Brady]

See the edited part of my post, above I just added it:

"The flight training part of their education lasted for 10 to 12 months, during which they got on avaerage 200 hours of flight time, the first 6 months was on initial flight traing whil the last 6 was on operationaly types advanced training. This was the routine in 41 (12 months on average) and in 42 and 43 (10 months on average). In 44 it droped to about 6 months of traing on average. "

........................................................................................

I was refering to training, calvery require a lot of training(Basic) and a huge infastructure to suport them, as do armored crews, gun crews ect, just the aparatus of basic traing is a huge mechanism, for all services, and it is not modeled in WiTP, i mentioned this in referance to your comments about the piolet traing programe. This is traing prour to their being sent to an operational unit, ship, squadron ect.

[mogami]

Hi The IJA is trained (mostly) at start. Land Combat Units that are raised once the war begins do require training. The Japanese player will find quite a few units need training.
(The 65th Bde of 14th Army comes to mind)

[mogami]

Hi, I posted the complete training requirments for Japanese a long time ago. The pilot trainiee began at 15 or 16 years old and became a pilot at 18 but still had at least a year to go of advanced training. The last class of this type entered service early (shortend training) in 1944.
In 1942 you got the class begun in 1939
In 1943 you got the class begun in 1940
In 1944 you got the class begun in 1941
After 1941 there are no more 3 year pilot programs. These total enrollment for each class began with 300 canidates. Nearly 50 percent washed out. Total pilots from this program less then 500. (total trained pilots WITP 460)

[Brady]

ref-410:

During the early part of the war, 41/42(initialy) the traing programe did not scale up realy it remained the same largely:

"In retrospect the IJN maintained a rigorously exclusive policy in it's avaitor programe for to long. The otsu Yokaren admitded little more than 200men anualy up to 1938, and class size did not excead 1,000 untill may 1941. Otsu Yokaren Class No. 19 of December 1942 still had only 1,500 recutes. The figure then sudenly Jumped to 2,951 in the following Class No. 20 of May 1943. Among the Ko Yokaren by far the largest of the Yokaren programs , anual class sizes remained in the 250-260 range for most of the China War perioud. Numbers did not excead 1,000 until class No. 10 od Aprial 1942. A year later Class no. 12 counted 3,215, divided into three groups. The figure then exploded to almost 28,000 in class No. 13, divided into two groups in Otc. and Dec. 43."

You would be corect in assuming I beleave that their could espichaly early in the war be gaps in the new arivals do to traing classes finishing their courses, but their were various clases runing cocurently, and starered in their starts and finshes. So I beeleave the gaps were small, and certainly early in 42 the new piolets would be small in number, espichaly compared to those sean later in the war.

I dont think that the 410 number is realy a fair estimation of the NAVYS (caps to be clear we are just refering to them hear and not the Army). Their would be far more Killed later in the war per month, just when their were far more available, so realy later in the war their would be plenty of piolets available, though lower skilled ones. Earler in the war if not for Midway their would still likely of been more than enough, certainly not enough to suport reckless use of their assests but suficient to suport the planes being produced. What I would realy like to see is a good number given for the Numbers trained per month with a decent referance behind it. we are both extrapolating to a degree hear, and it bothers me a bit.

[Brady]

"Hi, I posted the complete training requirments for Japanese a long time ago. The pilot trainiee began at 15 or 16 years old and became a pilot at 18 but still had at least a year to go of advanced training. The last class of this type entered service early (shortend training) in 1944.
In 1942 you got the class begun in 1939
In 1943 you got the class begun in 1940
In 1944 you got the class begun in 1941
After 1941 there are no more 3 year pilot programs. These total enrollment for each class began with 300 canidates. Nearly 50 percent washed out. Total pilots from this program less then 500. (total trained pilots WITP 460) "

This howeaver does not include all the training for the Navy, as sean above in my postings, my source also states that prewar only about 20% failed to compleat the programe.

As an example:

"The figure then sudenly Jumped to 2,951 in the following Class No. 20 of May 1943."

During the war several traing facalityes were added to help to increase piolet traing for the Navy.

Do you have anything for the Army?

[mogami]

Hi, Brady I still don't think you understand what I am saying.
Just because a pilot arrives on map as a 30 does not mean he will not become a fully trained pilot. He gets half his training off map free of charge. After that it is up to the Japanese player how much more training he gets. If you commit them to combat that is your choice. No one is forcing Japan to use untrained pilots.
Certainly the Japanese player will be forced to spend more time and effort on pilots compared to the Allies but the Allies can still improve many of their pilots by on map training.
Because Japanese pilot training was dependant on the supply situation it cannot be done fairly off map without a system that requires him to spend supply each month. The only way to do that is to make him train the pilots on map. They still get their ground school free of charge and in unlimited numbers. (every aircraft will always have a pilot)
By all rights every new Japanese pilot should begin at 0 and train from there.

Japanese pilots did not go from getting 300 hours of training to 150 or less because of time constraints. They got fewer hours because of a lack of fuel to train with.
Adding 10,000 pilots to training with only enough fuel to give them 10 hours each does not produce 10,000 trained pilots. It produces 10,000 pilots with a WITP rating of 10 (But they are all "graduates")

In WITP Japanes players can actually train more pilots to higher levels then were trained during the war. (If he devotes the resources (has them to devote) there is no upper limit to the number of pilots he can train. Every trainee eventually gets a real aircraft. In WITP he trains in the aircraft he will fly in combat. So if I want fighter pilots I train fighter groups. I decide when they are ready for combat. The entire time before a pilot enters combat is training so I plan on producing nothing but trained pilots for as long as I am able (and as long as the combat results justify it)

Your numbers would produce over 100,000 fully trained pilots for a nation that had fewer then 80,000 aircraft total during the entire period.

[Brady]

I understand that you can train on map.

I think that the Japanese piolets should arive at a normal trained leval just like the Allied piolets do, it may be free of charge as you say, but that part of the Japanese ecenomy is not modeled and the lower skill leveal they arive at later in the war is represenative of the worsened fuel situation and hurried traing schedual.

Why on earth would /should he arive at Zero, the whole Japanese ecenomy is not modeled, nore is the infastructure that suported it. I would certainly complaine about not having my beloved midgets, but I would draw the line at neading to have a mechanism to train the men who used them.

The went from about 200 hours (this was normal all the way up to 44 even pre war many were deleaved at 200 hours), to around 150 hours. and yes it had much to do with fuel, which was not a problem realy untill 44, they still got their traing done in all of 43 at the normal figure of 200 hours.

Just for the sake of argument, what happens if for some reasion the japanese dont suffer from an oil shortage? if things go well later in 44 for example will the Japanese be forced to deal with lower trained men even thought their is no reasion for it? In other words it is hard coded, it is not a variable, Some bases doesent nead X number of suply points to acheave a good turn out on next months piolets skill levals...?

[Brady]

I see you eddited you post a bit, it is late and I am a bit tierd, so hear goes my revised view based on your eddited comments.

First off I am not nore did I say that the figure of 2500 was realy the one I was advocating for the game, it should be noted as well that their was no piolet traing in 45 for the Navy past I beleave march 45, and that some of those men went to sucide units Bakas ect, and some went I belave to Kaitens, ect...this would asorbe some the excess in the figures your sighting (my rough setamates).


I do now better appricate what your saying regarding the training of the men, while it is not realy historicaly corect to do it the way you sugest it is refelective of the ecenomic situation and better scaled to represent the game enviorment. If a player has good luck, he can better train, if he has bad luck he will not be able to.

Howeaver to be fair, then you should have the training planes on map, and not force neaded front line units to be sidelined to acomadate this training of piolets.

[mogami]

Hi, In the end you have the system you would like and then the system the game is going to use. I'd adapt to the system the game is going to use and forget what you think it should have been. We have to play the game and see what results it produces before we condem it. Believe me when I say that I have pushed for a realistic system that was possible and did not require a rewrite of the program. I think I have achived this aim. (There is still one last feature needed but it has been promised)

I'm ging to test training in every game I run the Japanese (4 PBEM games began today)
Hopefully I will be able to form a usable training program that others can use.
The system in WITP is the best achivable at this time. Give it a chance.

[Brady]

I am not realy condeming it, as with anything I see from the posts you and the other testers provide, I note things that seam to me off in some way, and I post why I feal it this way and offer solutions or comments about it, wheather it is a missing whatever or a game play feature. This does not mean I am condeming it just that I wish it were otherwise. I am going to buy the game and play the piss out of it. Game play tweaks I suspect will come in patches over the next year or so, and like in UV i will look forward to them. What I am a bit concerned about is missing units in the OOB, if they dont come now I feal it may screw up PBEM games I may of started when and if they do come.

For whats its worth I think you have come up to a reasionable work around for what apears to be a not well represented aspect of the game. It will work, but that does mean I think the reasion for having to do it in the first place is at all sound. I still think the 10 Navy and 20 Army piolets a month is insanly low, and geting extra piolets that are below the normal leval they areive at is just a crazy it would sugest that they were pulled out class early, which was certainly not the case.

I also realy appricate the time taken to discuss this with me hear.

[Brady]

Punt.....

[Mr.Frag]

Brady, you do know that pilots for new groups coming in do *not* come from the replacement pool right?

[Brady]

"Brady, you do know that pilots for new groups coming in do *not* come from the replacement pool right? "


No I did not, this is cool and will help, since I asume any realy new groupe will arive with the training leave for that year it arives in?

Many of the Units that were formed during the war (I know this true for Navy, and fairly certain for the Army as well) were fromed from what was left of other unit(s), those former units being disbanded or renamed. I asume that since WiTP does not folow Historical upgade paths for most Japanese units that theise are indead new units corect? What becomes of the old units that many of the New ones replaced?

But were still looking at the grosely under estimated number of new trained piolets that were in the system.