Japanese Pilot Training

[Pascal_slith]

Hello,

one of the poor choices that the Japanese made was in the system of training pilots. Too few were trained and many of their best pilots had to stay in the front lines for much longer than the experienced US pilots, who were rotated back to the US to train new pilots. Does WitP allow for a change in the Japanese pilot training system to augment the rate of new, trained pilots?

[mogami]

Hi Where you been Pascal? Japan can train pilots on the map. (It's what I plan on doing)

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Japan can train pilots on the map. (It's what I plan on doing)

I hope you find in your testing that you are getting net gain out of this method. I seem to remember losing more pilots to op losses than anything else when I tried training "on-map".

What is the max level pilots can be trained up to with training set to 0%? (ground school).
What is the max level they can be trained up to with a percent training greater than 0%? (assuming there is a difference).

[Pascal_slith]

I mean pilot training BEFORE they are sent to operational units. In any case, the problem with Japanese pilot training, especially in the IJN, was excessive selection and no expansion of the training programs until too late (the Japanese thought the war would be short, DUH). An excellent reference is 'Sunburst' by Mark Peattie (a follow on to 'Kaigun').

The point here is to be able to plan for pilot replacements and training before arriving at operational units.

[mogami]

Hi, My method is simple. I reserve a number of groups as training/replacement groups.
When a front line unit needs replacements I send one of (or part of) my reserve groups and disband it into the front line unit. Then I train another reserve unit. Keep the front line units set to "no replacements" to prevent untrained pilots from joining unit. (I try to keep my off map trained pilots in the pool for selected assignments (CV)
It does not hurt a front line unit to be over strength. If a Sentai with max size of 27 gets down to 20 AC and pilots and I send 9 trained pilots I have 2 AC and 2 pilots as a reserve for the group. The pilots will actually fly as the computer assigns those with the lowest fatigue to missions. Having a few extra pilots improves performance. (Note these extra pilots have been assigned by me not the program. The UV excess pilot bug has not been seen by me in WITP in testing)

[Rainerle]

Hi Mogami,
doesn't Training produce casualties as well ? (always thought so)

[Brady]

I will punt up a thread that I had on this subject, At face Value the numbers WiTP allows per month are a joke.

From the Punted thread:

From the Book, Imperial Japanese Naval Aviator 1937-45 by Osama Tagaya:


p.9: "During the 1937-45 war , some 18,900 Yokern of all classses were killed in action out of 241,463 entering trainess. (This figure does not include the old Sohren programe priour to its incorperation into the Hei-Class Yokaren, or any of he commissioned Officer programs)

Most all Japanese Naval avators were enlistedmen.

"In retrospect the IJN maintained a rigorously exclusive policy in it's avaitor programe for to long. The otsu Yokaren admitded little more than 200men anualy up to 1938, and class size did not excead 1,000 untill may 1941. Otsu Yokaren Class No. 19 of December 1942 still had only 1,500 recutes. The figure then sudenly Jumped to 2,951 in the following Class No. 20 of May 1943. Among the Ko Yokaren by far the largest of the Yokaren programs , anual class sizes remained in the 250-260 range for most of the China War perioud. Numbers did not excead 1,000 until class No. 10 od Aprial 1942. A year later Class no. 12 counted 3,215, divided into three groups. The figure then exploded to almost 28,000 in class No. 13, divided into two groups in Otc. and Dec. 43."

"The Leveal of piolet skill remained High throught most of 1943"

"In 44 Carrier piolets were being introduced to flight deck landing with barely 150 hours flying time under their belts."

Japanese Naval Airmen who were the product of Pre war and early war traing were exceptionaly well trained, it would be fair and accurate to say that those trained in the mid war period were still very well trained and then those in the late war period were only trained. Pre war anywhear from 500(priour to the China war) to 200(during and after, up to 44 when it went down to 150) hours was normal for piolet traing priour to Being introduced to Carrier landings.


Some quick and shoty math generates a figure aproaching 2500 per month on average for the 8 years, this would of been much higher for the mid war perioud of course. And again this figure is not inclusive of all the programs in this time frame that fed piolets into the Navy, Officers came from other programs for example. These men were also funneled into the Following training programs specificaly geared toward their fininal assinements, Atack planes (Kats, Jills, ect), Dive Bombers, Fighters,Float planes, Ea planes, Land Atack Planes (Bettys, Nells,Peggys, ect...).

[mogami]

Hi, If the truth be told in Alpha I was in favor of completly eliminating all off map training of Japanese pilots. I was in favor of a starting pool but no per month addition to pool once game began. I still intend on training all my pilots on map.

[mdiehl]

[edit]

Sorry. Couldn't resist. In a mude for paridy or something.

[mogami]

Hi, The Japanese built 76,000 aircraft during the war.
2500 pilots per month is 30,000 per year.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The Japanese built 76,000 aircraft during the war.
2500 pilots per month is 30,000 per year.

You beat me to the punch in pointing out the obvious flaw in Brady's "pie-in-the-sky"
figures. I still think 30 a month is a measly trickle even compared to Japan's totally
inadequate efforts, and would like to see a gradually increasing flow as the war con-
tinues (maybe with the level of "trained" gradually decreasing along with it); but he's
talking orders of magnitude above any sane proposal.

[brisd]

From what I've read on this subject, Japan didn't start expanding its pilot training program until 1943, after it had lost so heavily at Midway and South Pacific theaters. There were proposals to expand their program prior to war's start and it probably would have resulted in more allied planes lost but not maintaining air supremcy. Mogami's on-map training seems a reasonable way to control which pilots are making it to the front lines, preventing untrained pilots from diluting one's combat units. The USA's policy of rotating veterans out of front line units to aid in training was a war-winning policy. If Japan had done the same, it would have benefited its air units in the long run. If there is no option in WITP to enhance Japan's air training, I'm sure someone will devise a scenario that does so and give us gamers who enjoy a challenge and like ahistorical options some fun. Those who wish to avoid such blasphemy to their "USA! USA!" view of the world can do so too. [8D]

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
I still think 30 a month is a measly trickle even compared to Japan's totally
inadequate efforts, and would like to see a gradually increasing flow as the war con-
tinues (maybe with the level of "trained" gradually decreasing along with it);

The level of training (exp value) DOES decrease as the war goes on. [:(]

30 per month is so low I think we will see pilots with experiences in the 20's and 30's from January 42 on. On-map trainig will be required and, as tedious as that sort of micromanagement is, I doubt it will even be effictive. Op losses alone will make it difficult to impossible. 2550 per month may be too high but 30 is definately too low.

I would like to see BOTH sides have the option of returning aces and other high experience pilots back to the pool and have it have an effect on the average experience level of pilots coming out of the pool. Currently the US gets this benifit (because it is something they did historically) without actually having to withdraw the high exp pilots. Sort of like having your cake and eating it too.

[mogami]

Hi, IN WITP Allied pilots are withdrawn after a number of missions.
If the Japanese player allows replacements into his front line groups and does not watch his pool he will get 20's in Dec 41. (There are a lot of undersize groups that will use up the pool in a few days)

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, IN WITP Allied pilots are withdrawn after a number of missions.

This is great news, and very historical. How many missions do the pilots have to fly before they get to go home? Is this number the same as historical? Does it apply to all allied pilots or just American ones? (I don't know if the British adopted a similar program).

I can live with on-map training but I think a lot of people won't be able to handle it and will get frustrated at all of their pilots dying in training accidents.

[Nikademus]

Training accidents are much rarer in WitP thx to the reduced fatigue rules.

[mogami]

Hi, OK this might not be what many people want to here but it is the truth as far as I know it. The Pacific War was an airwar. Air combat is the most important routine in the program and all the Naval Battles and ground assaults are over control of airfields.
The side that controls the air gets to move. If you lose air equality you also will find your TF's being sunk and your LCU going out of supply.

Because of this. The single most important detail for Japanese players will be training pilots and maintaining combat groups.
Players that devote time to this will do better then players that ignore it. It is not a problem for the allied player. He has larger pools and if he should some how exhaust these he has almost unlimited supply at safe large airfields for on map training.

The Japanese player can be denied training by supply levels. It takes a long time to train pilots so he has to plan operations for what he has at the moment and hope training will allow for replacements and future operations. A great number of the more extravegant plans will fail because there are not air groups in numbers to continue combat operations. (no point in taking Midway and stocking it with bombers if bomber loss exceed replacement rates for an extended period)

Japan has to count ready pilots, replacement pilots and projected training rates to see if plans are realistic. Even getting good ratios in air to air combat fails if the ratios are in the end more then Japan can sustain or less then the Allies can replace. (Japan can kill it's self while winning)

Prior to 1943 I believe the Japanese with carefull planning can defeat poorly planned or executed allied operations. Japan must be prepared to strike rapidly and with over whelming force. Japan has to avoid protracted battles. When it becomes clear they can no longer achive numeric advantage Japan has to horde her assets for use in gigantic (but short) battles.

Suspend expectations of victory and concentrate on buying time. The Japanese player will under go a complete reversal of pre 1943 behaviour. Pre 1943 avoid loss while inflicting max damage on enemy. After 1943 suffer any loss to inflict damage that requires the Allies to spend time recovering before their next operation. As a result Japanese quality will decline and need to be made up for by numbers. Post 1943 pilot training will be 0 percent flying (pilots will gain the points they get from ground school)
The supply is now more important then the training of pilots who are only going to fly 1 or 2 missions before they are shot down no matter what their training levels. The more experianced pilots will be saved for missions like CAP over Home Islands in good aircraft or held in reserve in case a target not protected by enemy CAP is in range.
Japan will never be short pilots. For every ready aircraft there will always be a pilot.

If Japan wins a battle that delays the Allied advance then Japan also gains that much time to train pilots for use where training is the important consideration. (I expect to use trained pilots in China late in the war. This will hurt the Chinese and provide a place for me to raise experiance levels. Supply in China and Manchuria and Korea is good for training pilots. Flying safe combat missions is a good means of scoring points and training pilots.

Sorry I went farther then I wanted to here.

[Mike Scholl]

Well..., that is the most rational and logical plan I've seen yet for dealing with the
inate problems of playing Japan. I hope you enjoy the Japanese side, because I
imagine most of your opponants will lack the patience for such an approach and opt
for the Allies. But I'm predicting that, barring unusually stupid play on the part of an
Allied Player, you will be the first one to post a "win" as the Japanese in the whole war
scenario. You have the right "mind-set".

[pad152]

The plan for the Japanese is simple:

1. 1942 - Capture what you need.

2. 1943 Renforce and build your defence, be carefull in picking your battles.

3. 1944 - Try to limit your losses.

4. 1945 - Hope your still there, just try to hang on.

All this nonsense on invading the US/OZ/India is just a quicker way for the allies to win.

On playing the allies, no matter how bad things start out you know things will get better. Playing Japan really takes a different mind set, the things you due in 1942 will determine if you are still in the war in 1944.

Then again there is always the editor, that can be used to increase things like the number of pilots and experince levels.

[Brady]

It should be noted that I am not nescessarly advocating 2,500 piolets per month. Somthing I am not to clear on is how piolets for Sea Planes, Float planes transports, atack and dive planes are handeled, are they part of the Pool? the 10 or so a month for the navy? or is that just fighter piolets? If they are seperate and not counted, then some of this figure is going to fead them (the 2,500). It should also be mentioned again that this is an average for the perioud from 37 to 45, it was lower pre war and much higher mid war than 2,500. And again it does not count for Officers and other programes the Navy had just those mentioned above.

It should also be Noted again that the figures above are Just for the Navy, they do not include Army training figures, which would be higher.


I beleave that a more realistic figure is certainly somewhear between the ones shown presently for WiTP and the numbers hinted at above.