Does anyone else find this as odd

[Feinder]

I can't believe that so many folks have gotten their panties in a wad over this. The patch is delayed. It happens. It happens frequently. In a lot of things. Ever stood in line at DMV, only to hear that the girl who takes your picture has gone to lunch, and they'll be back "soon". What about that knuckle-head at the grocery store that wants to write a check, but fogot their driver's licence. Or you're trying to sell your house, and your buyer can't get financing (why were you looking at my house to begin with?). Or the most magnificent and wondrous Hooters that is scheduled to open next week, is delayed for 2 weeks because somebody forgot to file for a liquour licence. Life is waiting in line for the next line. Get used to it.

Matrix doesn't OWE anyone anything. These (FREE) patches are reflection of a quality company, that stands behind their product. Delays happen. Grow up.

-F-

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world.

I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well.....

Well Matrix is a publishing company, so things like advertising and trade shows are part of their job description. You don't see 2x3, Panther games, etc. over there, just Matrix. It's their JOB to go; I doubt they're doing it out of fun. If Matrix didn't do things like this why on earth would the developers be in business with them in the first place?

From the tone of your post I'm guessing you’re upset because the patch is delayed, so perhaps that's why you're lashing out at Matrix? It's simply not fair to compare Matrix to large software houses that generate millions in profit off of one game.

Matrix sells a few thousand copies of a game, to try and compare their business model with companies like EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainment, etc. shows a severe lack of understanding on your part. These companies sell hundreds of thousands of copies of their games; Matrix (or any wargame company for that matter) could never hope to structure their business like these companies.

There are only a few core people available because they can't afford to hire more. I'm sure if they sold half a million copies of WitP, 2x3 would also have a booth, but that's not the case. That's why developers sign with a publisher like Matrix. With the combined efforts of all the developers backing Matrix, Matrix can afford to send their team to these events to help generate more sales for all the development houses they represent.

Jim

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I can't believe that so many folks have gotten their panties in a wad over this. The patch is delayed. It happens. It happens frequently. In a lot of things. Ever stood in line at DMV, only to hear that the girl who takes your picture has gone to lunch, and they'll be back "soon". What about that knuckle-head at the grocery store that wants to write a check, but fogot their driver's licence. Or you're trying to sell your house, and your buyer can't get financing (why were you looking at my house to begin with?). Or the most magnificent and wondrous Hooters that is scheduled to open next week, is delayed for 2 weeks because somebody forgot to file for a liquour licence. Life is waiting in line for the next line. Get used to it.

Matrix doesn't OWE anyone anything. These (FREE) patches are reflection of a quality company, that stands behind their product. Delays happen. Grow up.

-F-

Hear, hear!

[ZOOMIE1980]

Bad analogy, but true, Matrix can do whatever it pleases. Development delays happen all the time, of course. But when the delays are due to everyone taking the week off to galavant to Europe it's a different story. It's more of an observation than a criticism, really. I just come from a totally different world, I guess. I would never run a company the way they do, but that's just me.

And I could care less about the patch, one way or another, as I am playing the game just fine, quirks and all.

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate....

You're missing the point. Matrix doesn't have sales people, marketing reps, IT folks, etc. There are a few core people at Matrix that can "do it all" and the rest are more like sub-contractors who specialize in one thing or another (programming, graphics, product development issues, etc.). So there isn't a large group of people to draw from for unique events like this. The guys going to the show are the only ones who know the FULL picture regarding all their products and development issues, so we'll have to be patient till they return. [:(] No one else could possibly even hope to answer all the different questions I'm sure a representative will get while manning a booth at a game show.

Jim

AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world.

I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well.....

Cool it, guy!!! You trying to play catch up with Bill? I spent fifteen years in business, and I am not getting my &^*&^% hot because this company is not performing like I would expect. If you treat your employees the way you act on the board...whoo boy... ain't no way I'd work under those conditions.

This is a diversion after all, and they are not a huge company - as has been attested to above. I've been waiting for this game virtually all my adult life. Personally, I think you are way over the top with some of your comments. Granted, you have the right to rant and rave, but I also have the right to call it an unwarranted rant. By the way, your ranting makes me think that you have another problem - besides obvious impatience.

BTW - regarding trips to Germany - last time I took a look at the Business Code - that was considered an business related expense - which justifies the trip - as this is considered at least a good will investment which may lead to future business. Do you want any more games you can rant about not being on your time schedule? If yess, then cool it.... If not, rant on. We'll just read it and shake our heads...

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world.

I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well.....

Well Matrix is a publishing company, so things like advertising and trade shows are part of their job description. You don't see 2x3, Panther games, etc. over there, just Matrix. It's their JOB to go; I doubt they're doing it out of fun. If Matrix didn't do things like this why on earth would the developers be in business with them in the first place?

From the tone of your post I'm guessing you’re upset because the patch is delayed, so perhaps that's why you're lashing out at Matrix? It's simply not fair to compare Matrix to large software houses that generate millions in profit off of one game.

Matrix sells a few thousand copies of a game, to try and compare their business model with companies like EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainment, etc. shows a severe lack of understanding on your part. These companies sell hundreds of thousands of copies of their games; Matrix (or any wargame company for that matter) could never hope to structure their business like these companies.

There are only a few core people available because they can't afford to hire more. I'm sure if they sold half a million copies of WitP, 2x3 would also have a booth, but that's not the case. That's why developers sign with a publisher like Matrix. With the combined efforts of all the developers backing Matrix, Matrix can afford to send their team to these events to help generate more sales for all the development houses they represent.

Jim

Publishing company or not (read their who's who link, not ALL of these guys are publishers at all and they aren't as small as some of you seem to THINK they are), you don't send the ENTIRE STAFF to trade shows, period. At least leave SOMEONE behind that can continue to deal with the business end of things. I don't give a damn if they have 5 people and sell 500 CD's a year, you STILL don't send ALL your people capable of operating the business to some show, no matter HOW important it is. I still fail to see how having five or six or however many they send to these things get more "marketing" done than sending ONE or TWO.

Still not buying.

[Mark VII]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I can't believe that so many folks have gotten their panties in a wad over this. The patch is delayed. It happens. It happens frequently. In a lot of things. Ever stood in line at DMV, only to hear that the girl who takes your picture has gone to lunch, and they'll be back "soon". What about that knuckle-head at the grocery store that wants to write a check, but fogot their driver's licence. Or you're trying to sell your house, and your buyer can't get financing (why were you looking at my house to begin with?). Or the most magnificent and wondrous Hooters that is scheduled to open next week, is delayed for 2 weeks because somebody forgot to file for a liquour licence. Life is waiting in line for the next line. Get used to it.

Matrix doesn't OWE anyone anything. These (FREE) patches are reflection of a quality company, that stands behind their product. Delays happen. Grow up.

-F-

Could'nt agree more with Feinder.

Joel; Thankyou for the update on the patch. Precisely the info I wanted to hear. Have no problem waiting for the "free" update another week or so. Looking forward to it but I understand there are delays that are unavoidable. Staff going to a trade show is cool, if you guys don't expand you may go out of business, then where will we be? Now that I know how long to the patch, my pbem can carry on without worrying about when the patch will show up overnight! Thanks for the info.....terry

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns




You're missing the point. Matrix doesn't have sales people, marketing reps, IT folks, etc. There are a few core people at Matrix that can "do it all" and the rest are more like sub-contractors who specialize in one thing or another (programming, graphics, product development issues, etc.). So there isn't a large group of people to draw from for unique events like this. The guys going to the show are the only ones who know the FULL picture regarding all their products and development issues, so we'll have to be patient till they return. [:(] No one else could possibly even hope to answer all the different questions I'm sure a representative will get while manning a booth at a game show.

Jim

AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world.

I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well.....

Cool it, guy!!! You trying to play catch up with Bill? I spent fifteen years in business, and I am not getting my &^*&^% hot because this company is not performing like I would expect. If you treat your employees the way you act on the board...whoo boy... ain't no way I'd work under those conditions.

This is a diversion after all, and they are not a huge company - as has been attested to above. I've been waiting for this game virtually all my adult life. Personally, I think you are way over the top with some of your comments. Granted, you have the right to rant and rave, but I also have the right to call it an unwarranted rant. By the way, your ranting makes me think that you have another problem - besides obvious impatience.

BTW - regarding trips to Germany - last time I took a look at the Business Code - that was considered an business related expense - which justifies the trip - as this is considered at least a good will investment which may lead to future business. Do you want any more games you can rant about not being on your time schedule? If yess, then cool it.... If not, rant on. We'll just read it and shake our heads...

You damned right I have a right to rant and I will. There is a LOT about Matrix and their partners I like, but there is are some aspects of Matrix that simply defy logic. This is one of them. Again, I could care less if the patch isn't done till Christmas or later. And business trips cost the BUSINESS money, often a hell of a lot more than it does an individual. I know how to run a business and how not to run a business. The people I work with work very hard, are well managed, but at the same time are quite happy, as a whole....and very very few EVER go to a trade show....

I know for many here Matrix and their partners walk on water and can do no wrong. A lot of you are like college football homers and fanatics and take as personal insult ANY level of criticism. Well Matrix does a lot of things either flat out WRONG, or not as well as they could or should. This is one of them. If you have a problem with opinion, then that's YOUR problem, not mine.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980


Publishing company or not (read their who's who link, not ALL of these guys are publishers at all and they aren't as small as some of you seem to THINK they are), you don't send the ENTIRE STAFF to trade shows, period. At least leave SOMEONE behind that can continue to deal with the business end of things. I don't give a damn if they have 5 people and sell 500 CD's a year, you STILL don't send ALL your people capable of operating the business to some show, no matter HOW important it is. I still fail to see how having five or six or however many they send to these things get more "marketing" done than sending ONE or TWO.

Still not buying.

Well I see 2 possibly 3 people on that page who might have access to the secure servers. The rest I'm sure are sub-contracted and work on single projects. And who knows, perhaps only one of these 2 or 3 people even knows how to build a self installing patch?

There are major legal issues involved when you represent another companies property, so not very many people will have secure access to the srevers where all the different files are stored. You are making some very erroneous assumptions regarding how Matrix does business I think.

The guys at the show have to be fully knowledgable about ALL of Matrix's products. In addition I'm sure their are lots of new product (potential) business development meetings held after hours at these events, so basically the entire small core team is needed. One guy manning a sales booth might work for a single product interested only in selling units, but Matrix represents 28 products according to their "select a game" pull down menu.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

oops double post sorry.

[UncleBuck]

Seems to be only one person upset about this. The others are disappointed but understanding and just glad to get info on what is going on.
UB

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980


Publishing company or not (read their who's who link, not ALL of these guys are publishers at all and they aren't as small as some of you seem to THINK they are), you don't send the ENTIRE STAFF to trade shows, period. At least leave SOMEONE behind that can continue to deal with the business end of things. I don't give a damn if they have 5 people and sell 500 CD's a year, you STILL don't send ALL your people capable of operating the business to some show, no matter HOW important it is. I still fail to see how having five or six or however many they send to these things get more "marketing" done than sending ONE or TWO.

Still not buying.

Well I see 2 possibly 3 people on that page who might have access to the secure servers. The rest I'm sure are sub-contracted and work on single projects. And who knows, perhaps only one of these 2 or 3 people even knows how to build a self installing patch?

There are major legal issues involved when you represent another companies property, so not very many people will have secure access to the srevers where all the different files are stored. You are making some very erroneous assumptions regarding how Matrix does business I think.

The guys at the show have to be fully knowledgable about ALL of Matrix's products. In addition I'm sure their are lots of new product (potential) business development meetings held after hours at these events, so basically the entire small core team is needed. One guy manning a sales booth might work for a single product interested only in selling units, but Matrix represents 28 products according to their "select a game" pull down menu.

Jim

I admit ignorance as to the details of how Matrix conducts their day to day business. But even if they only three guys with secure access to servers and knowhow to get distributable binaries out you ONE, don't send ALL THREE to a show AT THE SAME TIME, and TWO, you ensure that at least one or two people OTHER THAN than those three know enough about the company and its products to be able to market the firm.

Sounds like you're being an apologist for what amounts to the manifestation of an internal management problem. Bottom line, there is NO real justification for essentially shutting down company's ability to distribute product for a week for a mere trade show. It defies logic. But then again, as I've said before, I guess i just live in a completely different world than these people.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Seems to be only one person upset about this. The others are disappointed but understanding and just glad to get info on what is going on.
UB

Again, not upset at all about the delay of the patch. I could care less. As usual, I am miffed at Matrix internal business/develoment practices... It was intended as a mere observation, but as usual with the fanatics on the forum, anything less than outright Matrix worship is considered blasphemous treason. And, also as usual, I couldn't really give a damn whether the fanatics like what I have to say or not....

[UncleBuck]

Well Zoomie, See if they are a publicly traded company, and buy a bunch of shares, or gather your funds together and buy into the Matrix board and then you can do it your way. They made the decision, as stated well in advance, so that is just the way it is. It is a patch, which fixes issues that are non-game stoppers. This is not the 1.1 or 1.2 patch that fixed issues that actually kept people form playing. This is the 1.3 patch with player suggestions and fixing some minor annoyances. Send them all to Germany, hell stay for Christmas, if they keep us informed on what is going on as the have, then I am not going to worry about it as you appear to be doing.

Rant all you want, what they do as a business is there well business. I am just amazed at how much they listen to the player base as it is. You work for a software company so how would you like it if on your user bulletin board they were telling you how you should run your business? Not ideas to change product or add features but how they run the office?

UB

[pompack]

A lot of you are like college football homers and fanatics and take as personal insult ANY level of criticism.

No, not just ANY level of criticism. As the Reverend says, you have been a little over the top here.

However, I do apologize for any sarcasm that leaks into my posts.

Matrix and 2x3 are both small operations operating in an infinitesimal niche market; no one in either company is going to get rich from this. In fact, I find it hard to believe that any of the technical people can be paid “normal” salaries to the standards of the industry (and I agree with you that there is no shortage of talent here). For whatever reasons they continue to work on WitP and all their other products, I am damned glad to be one of the beneficiaries of their efforts.

[PeteG662]

Zoomies point is that from a business efficiency standpoint it doesn't make sense. That is all. Guys, its okay to talk and express opinions so go with the flow here.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Well Zoomie, See if they are a publicly traded company, and buy a bunch of shares, or gather your funds together and buy into the Matrix board and then you can do it your way. They made the decision, as stated well in advance, so that is just the way it is. It is a patch, which fixes issues that are non-game stoppers. This is not the 1.1 or 1.2 patch that fixed issues that actually kept people form playing. This is the 1.3 patch with player suggestions and fixing some minor annoyances. Send them all to Germany, hell stay for Christmas, if they keep us informed on what is going on as the have, then I am not going to worry about it as you appear to be doing.

Rant all you want, what they do as a business is there well business. I am just amazed at how much they listen to the player base as it is. You work for a software company so how would you like it if on your user bulletin board they were telling you how you should run your business? Not ideas to change product or add features but how they run the office?

UB

We're told how to run our business by our customers all the time. We charge too much for this, too little for that, our code and environment is too complex, we don't invest enough in documentation, we over design, under design, we are top heavy, bottom heavy, we have great customer support, our customer support sucks, etc.... Hear it all the time. Sometimes we make a change, most of the time we don't, but we here it all the time either way...

True, that they can conduct their business any way they see fit, but also true that when they make public what they are doing, they then open themselves to the critical eye as well. It's all fair game. They choose to effectively shut their company down for trade shows. I was merely pointing out that that is a very odd way of doing business, because, well, it is. That's a OBSERVATION, but of course, as usual, most take it as a criticism and get their panties in a wad over it.

[Skyros]

Here I am sitting on the fence.

I see Zoomies point and I understand Matrix's position. I too worked in the software industry and if one more person tells me "its only cutting and pasting code from one section to another, why do you charge so much" I could scream. I also see how Matrix with money committed to this trip, which the airlines will not give back, wants to make sure all the players are at a show which could help grow their business.

My major concern is to do the patch right. Having been rushed by clients, told not to use business analysts to test etc. and then be blamed when something goes wrong I can understand why they have put it off. If they had winged it and something had gone wrong there would be threads here complaing about why they did not wait and do it right.

By the way Zoomie keep speaking up, its your right to have an opinion and you express it well. Hopefully as Matrix grows they will be able to add more people to address your concerns.

Joel thanks for keeping us informed and Gary thanks for PacWar and WITP, I don't know what I would have done for the last ten years with out your games.

[byron13]

Zoomie does have a right to speak his peace on the forum, and he can weigh the depths of his displeasure the next time he considers buying a 2by3 or Matrix game. I'm sure if Matrix has made a poor decision in how they've handled this, they will learn from their experience and do things differently in the future - if possible.

My concern is that the furor (really, a fart in a whirlwind) over this issue will suggest to Matrix that they should be less forthcoming with information. I would much rather have Matrix hang it all out for everyone to see and know than just be told that "the patch is delayed for awhile; don't call us, we'll call you." I think we all agree that one of the best things about Matrix is their responsiveness to, and interaction with, customers (no gaming company does better). I don't want to discourage them from being honest and open for fear of criticism. They are human, after all.

[Joel Billings]

I agree that Zoomie has every right to express his opinions. Even with perfect knowledge of every aspect of the situation (which non of us has, just like a commander in wartime never has full knowledge except in a wargame), you could still honorably disagree with certain aspects of decisions that are made. I'm just pointing out that lots of assumptions are made that are incorrect and would radically alter your thinking if you knew the reality and weren't clouded by the fog of war. I've heard some say business is just war without the physical casulaties (unless you count stress).

I can't speak for Matrix, although the person that said there are only a few people on the list that are qualified to go was probably right on. I can say at SSI I didn't hire a sales person until 4 years after I started the company and 3 1/2 years after I was selling products. I was the sales person. I was the game developer. We had a few programmers, some production staff, and one marketing person. Only the marketing person and I could "man the booth" except at end user shows where we could send a programmer if we wanted to interrupt their critical path work. I was the only project manager so if I was gone, it was hard to get some things done. That's why I even remember sending my mom to a trade show once (she didn't know the games, but at least could help sell games and do the paperwork, I seem to recall Keith may have gone as the tech guy to that show to answer game questions). I guess you can say we were a grandma and pop outfit. Of course, after I hired a sales guy, I regretted waiting so long to get one, however I still had to spend a lot of time selling (and working with the sales person) as it was hard to find a sales guy that knew anything about computer wargames (there being no history of such a thing and little money in it). In hindsight, I feel like I should have hired a sales guy 1 year earlier, but not 3 years earlier given the financial situation and the costs/benefits of such a move. Of course, that's 20/20 hindsight, and overall I'm proud of SSI's success in those early days.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear from those that are happy to get the straight info, and will continue to try to give it when I have some definite information I think people want to know. I don't think you guys are homers, I just think you're willing to give us the benefit of the doubt, and I find that encouraging.