Does anyone else find this as odd

[ZOOMIE1980]

A company, whose arguably biggest product has a major revision all but ready for distribution, cannot deliver it because ALL the "key" personnel are away at a trade show????

I've been in the commercial software business for the better part of a quarter century, mostly at firms roughly the same size as this one, and I cannot imagine a case where I send ALL my people out to trade shows at the same time???? They are important, for sure, but damn.....

[Ron Saueracker]

Need the patch bad or what? Anyway, it's a small company and they seem to have been working their repective bags off. Time for a few steins of beer in a breathtaking country in my book. You have to start asking yourself why every issue is major or vital, when in reality, they are not that huge. If the employees don't get a break once in awhile, the production suffers anyway.

[ZOOMIE1980]

Its a business, not recreation. When I started at my firm we had 20 people. We NEVER delayed a software delivery because of trade show commitments. I have have had to cancel five trade show trips in the past nine years to get releases out the door. And we work hard....VERY hard. Sorry, not buying. Not buying at all. At least, ONE guy simply MUST cancel the trip and get the work done. No excuse.

This is just one example of why the gaming sector has such a poor reputation among professional software developers....

[Joel Billings]

Since I posted the note in the first place, let me come to Matrix's defense. There are only a few people at Matrix that have the knowledge and ability to bring together all of the relevent files from different sources (programmers, sound techs, artists) and make a patch that deals with the various issues that the patch needs to deal with. This game show was anticipated for months and those people happen to be the same people that can be called on to show the products and "man the booth" and be able to speak intelligently about their complete product line. Matrix is a small company, as are all of the companies making computer wargames these days.

We expected the patch to be ready by early October, but a very difficult issue kept delaying the patch. By the time the issue had been solved and sufficiently tested, the Matrix people were already on the move. They did their best to try to get the patch out during their travel, but couldn't pull it off in a way that would ensure proper testing on the final patch. It was unfortunate timing. I'm sure they will do everything they can when they return to get the patch out as soon as possible.

If Matrix (or the other current computer wargame publishers) were SSI after about 1983, I'd agree with you that they should be able to go to a trade show and get a patch out the door. But you're asking a lot from companies that have few full time employees and are selling predominently very nitch products. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, they can do amazing things with very little resources, but they aren't EA.

I was reluctant to say anything about the patch for fear of this kind of reaction, and I guess I could have said less, but I prefer to be up front with people about what's going on once we know the story. I also want to say that I'm totally supportive of Matrix going to the German show as it's only by going to these kinds of shows that we can hope to grow computer wargaming (and Matrix) so we can sell more copies of our games and be able to continue making computer wargames. Germany is a big computer wargame market (used to be second to the US back in the mid/late nineties) so it deserves to be marketed to, and with our games, it takes someone that knows the products well to be able to show them off well. So although I'm sorry the patch was delayed by this bad timing, the show is something that ultimately is beneficial to anyone that wants a continuing stream of computer wargame products. On the plus side, keep in mind that the patch is continuing to be tested so it will likely be better given the extra test time.

By the way, 20 people is a ton. It took SSI 4+ years and around 30 products to reach 20 employees.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Its a business, not recreation. When I started at my firm we had 20 people. We NEVER delayed a software delivery because of trade show commitments. I have have had to cancel five trade show trips in the past nine years to get releases out the door. And we work hard....VERY hard. Sorry, not buying. Not buying at all. At least, ONE guy simply MUST cancel the trip and get the work done. No excuse.

This is just one example of why the gaming sector has such a poor reputation among professional software developers....

No offence, but it sounds like you could use a holiday. Seriously, the gaming industry and other software industries seems to me to be different creatures. The gaming industry appears to satisfy it's own timetable while the commercial companies fight bitterly over the same contracts requiring a more strict approach to deadlines.

Personally, I don't care how long they take, as long as they get it right in the end. Further(as Isaid a few previous times), it would be grand if they regarded this game as their flagship and every few years updated it incorporating new industry standards and player design suggestions and game streamlining. Where ya gonna go if 2by3 did not produce this game? Nowhere. RTS is the norm, and most likely the companies which concentate on these or killing themselves, but without competition, 2by3 can worry less about heart attacks and divorce and enjoy a hobby which earns them a living.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Since I posted the note in the first place, let me come to Matrix's defense. There are only a few people at Matrix that have the knowledge and ability to bring together all of the relevent files from different sources (programmers, sound techs, artists) and make a patch that deals with the various issues that the patch needs to deal with. This game show was anticipated for months and those people happen to be the same people that can be called on to show the products and "man the booth" and be able to speak intelligently about their complete product line. Matrix is a small company, as are all of the companies making computer wargames these days.

We expected the patch to be ready by early October, but a very difficult issue kept delaying the patch. By the time the issue had been solved and sufficiently tested, the Matrix people were already on the move. They did their best to try to get the patch out during their travel, but couldn't pull it off in a way that would ensure proper testing on the final patch. It was unfortunate timing. I'm sure they will do everything they can when they return to get the patch out as soon as possible.

If Matrix (or the other current computer wargame publishers) were SSI after about 1983, I'd agree with you that they should be able to go to a trade show and get a patch out the door. But you're asking a lot from companies that have few full time employees and are selling predominently very nitch products. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, they can do amazing things with very little resources, but they aren't EA.

I was reluctant to say anything about the patch for fear of this kind of reaction, and I guess I could have said less, but I prefer to be up front with people about what's going on once we know the story. I also want to say that I'm totally supportive of Matrix going to the German show as it's only by going to these kinds of shows that we can hope to grow computer wargaming (and Matrix) so we can sell more copies of our games and be able to continue making computer wargames. Germany is a big computer wargame market (used to be second to the US back in the mid/late nineties) so it deserves to be marketed to, and with our games, it takes someone that knows the products well to be able to show them off well. So although I'm sorry the patch was delayed by this bad timing, the show is something that ultimately is beneficial to anyone that wants a continuing stream of computer wargame products. On the plus side, keep in mind that the patch is continuing to be tested so it will likely be better given the extra test time.

By the way, 20 people is a ton. It took SSI 4+ years and around 30 products to reach 20 employees.

Makes sense to me, Joel. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Can't argue with German beer either.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Since I posted the note in the first place, let me come to Matrix's defense. There are only a few people at Matrix that have the knowledge and ability to bring together all of the relevent files from different sources (programmers, sound techs, artists) and make a patch that deals with the various issues that the patch needs to deal with. This game show was anticipated for months and those people happen to be the same people that can be called on to show the products and "man the booth" and be able to speak intelligently about their complete product line. Matrix is a small company, as are all of the companies making computer wargames these days.

We expected the patch to be ready by early October, but a very difficult issue kept delaying the patch. By the time the issue had been solved and sufficiently tested, the Matrix people were already on the move. They did their best to try to get the patch out during their travel, but couldn't pull it off in a way that would ensure proper testing on the final patch. It was unfortunate timing. I'm sure they will do everything they can when they return to get the patch out as soon as possible.

If Matrix (or the other current computer wargame publishers) were SSI after about 1983, I'd agree with you that they should be able to go to a trade show and get a patch out the door. But you're asking a lot from companies that have few full time employees and are selling predominently very nitch products. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, they can do amazing things with very little resources, but they aren't EA.

I was reluctant to say anything about the patch for fear of this kind of reaction, and I guess I could have said less, but I prefer to be up front with people about what's going on once we know the story. I also want to say that I'm totally supportive of Matrix going to the German show as it's only by going to these kinds of shows that we can hope to grow computer wargaming (and Matrix) so we can sell more copies of our games and be able to continue making computer wargames. Germany is a big computer wargame market (used to be second to the US back in the mid/late nineties) so it deserves to be marketed to, and with our games, it takes someone that knows the products well to be able to show them off well. So although I'm sorry the patch was delayed by this bad timing, the show is something that ultimately is beneficial to anyone that wants a continuing stream of computer wargame products. On the plus side, keep in mind that the patch is continuing to be tested so it will likely be better given the extra test time.

By the way, 20 people is a ton. It took SSI 4+ years and around 30 products to reach 20 employees.

I can appreciate everything you are saying here. Been there, done that.....really.

Matrix does not suffer from a talent problem, they suffer from a training problem (where to find the time to train????)

Matrix does not suffer from a work ethic problem they suffer from a resource management problem. Remember, washing machines work hard (National Lampoom's Christmas Vacation)...

At some point, like we did some 10 years ago (we are 21 years old), we had to formally separate our marketting function from our technical function and bite the bullet and hire some folks who were 100% non-tech, pure sales types. Those are the folks that are today our "booth bunnies". We still send a couple of techies with them, but the guys we send are always non-critical path guys who are essentially plug-and-play folks who can be recalled on a moment's notice (that's me...).

You guys have what? 25, 28 folks??? That's enough to start thinking about keeping some critical path techies at home and acquiring at least a few talking heads to take the load off.

It;s the sad lot of us techies....we really are NOT wired to be booth bunnies.

[von Murrin]

I for one really do appreciate feedback from devs, positive or negative. Nothing 'til the 28th? That's fine. I have other games and things I can do, and would be cool with it anyway had I not such, err... "distractions."[:D]

Take a day off, Joel. Grab a beer and watch a game or something. After all, you've "only" got GGWAW on your plate for the next few days.[:'(]

Thanks for the heads up. It does matter.[:)]

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Its a business, not recreation. When I started at my firm we had 20 people. We NEVER delayed a software delivery because of trade show commitments. I have have had to cancel five trade show trips in the past nine years to get releases out the door. And we work hard....VERY hard. Sorry, not buying. Not buying at all. At least, ONE guy simply MUST cancel the trip and get the work done. No excuse.

This is just one example of why the gaming sector has such a poor reputation among professional software developers....

No offence, but it sounds like you could use a holiday. Seriously, the gaming industry and other software industries seems to me to be different creatures. The gaming industry appears to satisfy it's own timetable while the commercial companies fight bitterly over the same contracts requiring a more strict approach to deadlines.

Personally, I don't care how long they take, as long as they get it right in the end. Further(as Isaid a few previous times), it would be grand if they regarded this game as their flagship and every few years updated it incorporating new industry standards and player design suggestions and game streamlining. Where ya gonna go if 2by3 did not produce this game? Nowhere. RTS is the norm, and most likely the companies which concentate on these or killing themselves, but without competition, 2by3 can worry less about heart attacks and divorce and enjoy a hobby which earns them a living.

It's the difference between a legit "business" and a "past-time". You can exhaust yourself with both. I'm not all that hyped about the patch. I am playing with a great deal of satisfaction with or without it. But I always find the business end of this stuff facinating. And that's what this thread is about. Right now, Matrix is what I call a "Mom and Pop" type business. "What do I have to do today to open the doors tomorrow". But I also see it as an entity about ready to take the next step...towards an EA-Sports..."it's no longer good enough to just be able to open the doors tomorrow...".

I'm just watching and learning.....

[Joel Billings]

Where'd you get 25-28 people? I don't honestly know for Matrix, but would say you're off by close to an order of magnitude (ok, maybe not quite that much). At 2by3 we have 3 full time and currently 2 part time people. Don't mind the man behind the curtain.

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

I for one really do appreciate feedback from devs, positive or negative. Nothing 'til the 28th? That's fine. I have other games and things I can do, and would be cool with it anyway had I not such, err... "distractions."[:D]

Take a day off, Joel. Grab a beer and watch a game or something. After all, you've "only" got GGWAW on your plate for the next few days.[:'(]

Thanks for the heads up. It does matter.[:)]

Thanks for the support. Yes, focused on GGWaW now for sure. Wish I had time to grab that beer. Maybe after my next roller hockey game.

[ZOOMIE1980]

Yea, I can't ever seem to get a feel for exactly how you guys all fit together. I guess that's part of the problem. Who's the "partners", who's the parent company, who's in what group and who's in both???? All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate....

[Bosun]

Joel,
I really appreciate your letting us know about the delay for the patch. It really is important to keep the lines of communication open. I feel that we grognards of UV and WITP are almost family; in fact after playing some of you for years now I think of you as family in a sense. I know frustration levels have been high for me and, I think, many others as well. Now that we have the facts we can all get back to a semi-normal routine w/o checking the forum every 30 minutes. At least until the 29th LOL. Anyway, this old sea dog thanks you.

[Halsey]

I wish I had a job that allowed me that kind of freedom! I don't begrudge them for having that opportunity though. I say, more power to ya![;)]

Besides, being a UV player, I know that this game will be constantly upgraded as time goes by. The younger generation wants all now! Us older and experienced people are a little more patient when waiting for something.[;)]

With that being said, I really look forward to starting new 1.40 patching threads![:D]

[Nomad]

I understand that Matrix and 2x3 are small companies. I am glad Joel gave us some information. The lack of information is the one thing that frustrates me. I have no problem waiting for a patch, I just do not want to have an expectation of 'in a few days' or 'soon', when it is going to be a few weeks.

[Andrew Brown]

Thanks for the updates Joel. Greatly appreciated.

[pompack]

The fact that Matrix and 2x3 aren’t “real” software companies is the reason we can afford this game. If they were “real” companies there would indeed be salesmen, probably at least one full-time PR guy, a QC department, a dedicated Customer Support group (probably outsourced to Bangladesh), two or more layers of management plus a Finance department, a Purchasing department and probably an Ethics Committee to make sure that the folks in purchasing don’t take kickbacks or other gratuities such as ballpoint pens. WitP would cost $2000 a copy plus the standard 15% annual maintenance fee that allows the customer to e-mail or telephone customer support and receive periodic updates. It's also true that the employees of such a "real" software company would be able to afford a home, an automobile and eat meat at least once a week.

(The above rant may be slightly colored by experience with companies that have to deal with some government)

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: pompack

The fact that Matrix and 2x3 aren’t “real” software companies is the reason we can afford this game. If they were “real” companies there would indeed be salesmen, probably at least one full-time PR guy, a QC department, a dedicated Customer Support group (probably outsourced to Bangladesh), two or more layers of management plus a Finance department, a Purchasing department and probably an Ethics Committee to make sure that the folks in purchasing don’t take kickbacks or other gratuities such as ballpoint pens. WitP would cost $2000 a copy plus the standard 15% annual maintenance fee that allows the customer to e-mail or telephone customer support and receive periodic updates. It's also true that the employees of such a "real" software company would be able to afford a home, an automobile and eat meat at least once a week.

(The above rant may be slightly colored by experience with companies that have to deal with some government)

Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate....

You're missing the point. Matrix doesn't have sales people, marketing reps, IT folks, etc. There are a few core people at Matrix that can "do it all" and the rest are more like sub-contractors who specialize in one thing or another (programming, graphics, product development issues, etc.). So there isn't a large group of people to draw from for unique events like this. The guys going to the show are the only ones who know the FULL picture regarding all their products and development issues, so we'll have to be patient till they return. [:(] No one else could possibly even hope to answer all the different questions I'm sure a representative will get while manning a booth at a game show.

Jim

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate....

You're missing the point. Matrix doesn't have sales people, marketing reps, IT folks, etc. There are a few core people at Matrix that can "do it all" and the rest are more like sub-contractors who specialize in one thing or another (programming, graphics, product development issues, etc.). So there isn't a large group of people to draw from for unique events like this. The guys going to the show are the only ones who know the FULL picture regarding all their products and development issues, so we'll have to be patient till they return. [:(] No one else could possibly even hope to answer all the different questions I'm sure a representative will get while manning a booth at a game show.

Jim

AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world.

I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well.....