Moses vs WITP_Dude--China AAR

[mogami]

Hi, Well go look up where the Chinese were at in Dec and move them there.
(actually there should be a herd down south of Shanghai as well but I managed to get them moved back. )(and I got the Chinese Cav units moved in from the field and placed on the RR behind Changsha so the deployment is actually better for China then history)

[moses]

The screenshot makes everything much clearer. Situation as of 18 Jan:

A major battle was fought at Honam as China counterattacked while I was occupied at Ichang. When the Chinese entered Honam I launched a shock attack to try and retreat them but the Chinese had more troops than I thought and I got a 0 to 1 attack. I really thought he might drive my disrupted troops out of the city on the next turn but instead he retreated most of his guys out and I expect he will be gone by the next turn.

Ichang is now besieged by superior forces and his troops have to be exhausted by their forray toward Hsinyang. I expect this city will fall very soon.

South of Changsa the northernmost of the two surrounded corps finnally surrendered. It is very difficult to destroy surrounded forces and I had had several 100 to 1 type of attacks which caused few casualties. I must have gotten a good dice roll as my last attack killed off 7700 Chinese at one shot. Who knows how long the second Chinese unit will last.

In the south my forces are reorganising after clearing the rail line. In the far north a single Chinese has advanced north of Yenan and is fighting an army of mongolian cav there.

China now has to defend 4 major and two minor axis of advance. Major axis are Wuchow, Kweilin, the river north of changsa and sien. Minor axis are Ichang and Yenan. The rail lines give me the ability to move to a selected axis very quickly and it will be difficult for him to reinforce wherever I attack.

[WiTP_Dude]

So now the Chinese are in better shape in regards to deployment than history? One has to wonder why the Japanese had such a large problem in China. This is something to look into.

[moses]

Actually I think that you are doing rather well don't you? By now all those misdeployed troops should be in more useful locations and you've certainly not been overrun in the meantime. I long, hard, interesting battle lies ahead and I'm not at all certain of the outcome.

Then again maybe you're in worse shape then my recon is telling me.

[WiTP_Dude]

Yes, I am in bad shape. Unfortunately, the Chinese lack good leaders, experience, and supply. This makes them perform much worse than their raw numbers would otherwise indicate. Even then their numbers aren't that great. If Ichang falls there is a big problem as there is no city to back up into. Anyway I put all the best available leaders into the Ichang units to see if that will help.

[sveint]

Instruction manual on playing China:

Hold Chunking and Kweiyang.
Wait for the US of A to win the war.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: sveint

Instruction manual on playing China:

Hold Chunking and Kweiyang.
Wait for the US of A to win the war.

The only problem is that isn't going to hold for too long. Eventually the Japanese can wear you out.

[BraveHome]

ORIGINAL: sveint

Instruction manual on playing China:

Hold Chunking and Kweiyang.
Wait for the US of A to win the war.

I suppose the problem for the Allied player with this strategy (in game terms) is that it's not so 'fun' as playing for territory far forward of these strategic bases. But as in R/L, where both political and supply concerns kept this the only practical focus for first few years represented by this game, this is a tried/true strategy that forces an ambitious Japanese commander to overstretch himself by extending too far from a solid base of supply.

[BraveHome]

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

So you are saying the Chinese setup is correct in WiTP? I don't agree.

Interesting perspective on the reasons (politics, supply problems) for this setup contained in link
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/72-38/72-38.htm

I offer one quote from the lengthy article:

"How well both General Stilwell and General Wedemeyer persuaded the theater commander-in-chief, Generalissimo Chiang, to support U.S. strategic goals, and how effectively U.S. training and materiel support could build selected Chinese Army divisions into modern tactical units, capable of standing up to Japanese adversaries, were secondary objectives. What mattered most was simply keeping China in the war against Japan."

[sveint]

The only problem is that isn't going to hold for too long. Eventually the Japanese can wear you out.

More like the Japanese will wear themselves out. Unless China has lost half its troops at Sian/Yenan.

[moses]

While many advocate an immediate withdrawl strategy I don't see how this can work. Chunking and the other 2 cities in the vicinity do not provide enough resourses to sustain the Chinese Army. Even before the Burma road is cut your supply situation will deteriorate. I will then begin bombing you're cities and without supply your air defence will be ineffective. It may take until the end of 43 to finish China off but I will be able to do it without risk.

A more aggressive forward defence at least makes me fight for what I get and if I'm not careful a reverse is possible. Dude was very close to defeating my troops at Hsinyang and almost inflicted a major defeat on my troops at Homan. I assume that his losses are quite severe but lower troop levels actually ease the supply burden and may not be an entirely bad thing.

A final disadvantage of a rapid Chinese retrreat is that in a full game if I was planning a defeat Russia first strategy I would be able to do this and still take all the early Chinese objectives before the allied player realized that I had a reduced force.

A early retreat strategy will of course reduce VP loss in the short term but long term in my opinion it is a losing strategy.

[Feinder]

Interesting thread.

I wish I had seen it earlier.

Supply is major issue in China (most of you have heard me bang my drum about that). Even if Japan never attacks, you don't have sufficient supplies to feed your troops (most of the cities with massed troops quickly go short on supplies). And once the Japan moves into the 3 frontline resource cities (doesn't have to caputre, just move in to disrupt the supply), you're really fuxed.

I'd be curious if you could check the number of Chinese Rifle Squads retrieved from the pool (it's the last button in the intel screen). You're probably only drawing 2, maybe 3 squads a day (if any at all); whereas you get 20 a day (if you have sufficient supplies).

The first thing I did in my game vs. U2 was set up a HUGE airlift from India to China, using every transport and level bomber I could grab. I can pull about 40 - 45 squads from the pool, when the weather is clear (because Tstorms seem to ground the transports). Seems that it rains about every other day, so I end up pulling an average of 20 - 25 a day. THIS seems to be critical.

However, since you're not including India in this scenario, you're missing the (requisite) benefit of airlifted supplies (which I think pretty much every player has over-looked). I don't think I -should- have to impress every plane into transport duty (that supply should be greater/easier than it is), but it's what I've done, and it seems to be working well. It's the end of December, I haven't lost anything, and I am in fact driving into his center from Homan.

Oh, and was game started v1.4 with 100 prep point increase? Seems doubful, since v1.4 was just released, but I'm curious.

-F-

[moses]

I don't believe that Dude has used airlift as I have not seen any tranport losses on the VP report. I would not object were he to do so as long as he used a reasonable amount. Several groups of transport groups would seem to be within the realm of historical possibility.

I don't think that it would make that much difference. Having 72 planes making dayly flights is not much when you have 72 Corps to support but every bit helps I guess.

We started the game under patch 1.3. 1.4 is much better for the Chinese. Based on WITP Dudes tactics and some that I have tested myself I truly believe that China can put up a very aggressive defence.

My PBEM opponent is long term AWOL and I may abort both of my games soon. In that event I will issue challenges to play as Japan vs my China. I really don't believe I can be beaten here and would like to test my tactics.

[WiTP_Dude]

I think some are underestimating how impossible the situation is for China in the long run. The Japanese get dozens of additional divisions in China as the war goes along. Dozens. The Chinese basically get nothing. Maybe you can hold out in China in 1942 and 1943. By 1944 however you will be finished off.

[sveint]

Ok, a couple of things that should go without saying:

a) Airlift supplies
b) Heavy bombers based in Chunking should reduce all occupied Chinese resource centers within range to rubble (including Hanoi)

Chunking with 6000+ assualt points in a level 9 fort with 100 preparation? Good luck assaulting it while being bombarded by heavy bombers and low on supply.

[sveint]

Oh, yet another thing that shouldn't have to be mentioned:

Chinese corps start out with poor commanders but they have a good pool of 50+ rated commanders. Replace them, makes a huge difference.

Furthermore, I agree with moses that offensive is an option for China. It's a risky one however. Defense is low-risk, and you cannot affoard to lose China. Lose China=lose Russia and Inda= war lost.

[sveint]

Yet another thing (sorry - I'll be quiet after this):

If Japan attacks Russia; I'd immediately go on the offensive as China, situation permitting.

[WiTP_Dude]

Why would Chungking have an operational airfield? It's not too difficult for the Japanese to keep bombing it until it can't be used any more. As for air lifting supply, it is not going to be enough to feed 6000 assualt points. The Japanese may even be able to put a Zero long range cap over the place to shoot down any airlift. As for level 9 forts, those can be taken down over time with attacks.

[Feinder]

b) Heavy bombers based in Chunking should reduce all occupied Chinese resource centers within range to rubble (including Hanoi)

The only problem here is the time dependency. Having never played a later war scenario, this might be more possible, but not really in PBEM Scen 15.

Early on in Scen 15, having heavy bombers in China (to actually bomb stuff), is a MAJOR drain on supplies (trust me, I tried it). Bombing resource centers would be wonderful, but the bombers would be stealing supplies from things that really matter in early 42, like feeding my troops (and drawing Rifle Squads from the pool). Not to mention that you have neither the quantity or quality of fighters available to escort them (even they had the range, which they don't). Coupled with the fact that Chungking is only a Lvl(4) AF to start, and putting anything other than 2e bombers at a Lvl(4) generates some huge ops losses.

But yes, you do -NEED- to airlift supplies into China. And you'd have to accuse me of "unhistorical" usage. I think I've got something on the order of 8 level-bomber squadrons, and 7 transport squadrons, committed to bringing in supplies into China (don't care if my PBEM opponents know, maybe they'll find it intimadating *smile*). The lift capacity is around 50,000 units a turn (however many supplies that ends up being, I have not idea, but my guys seem be well fed when it isn't raining).

The flip-side is, that's 8 level-bomber squadrons that I'd love to be using to bomb the Japanese in Burma; but -not- losing China is more important to me (do you guys know Chungking is the holy grail for Japan, currently worth 3000 vps in my game (due to AF improvements, bigger AF means bigger/more planes for supplies!).

-F-

[Feinder]

The Japanese may even be able to put a Zero long range cap over the place to shoot down any airlift

Frankly, I think it's a bug, but there idoesn't appear to be anything you can do about airtran supplies. The air-tran phase happens -after- the AM/PM air phases (watch the scrolling info). I think it's an oversight. And like I said, I can bring in 50k units in a turn (with good weather).

But I'll also agree that putting everybody in one hex is NOT the solution. The key to drawing replacements is to simply have 2x (or more) the supply requirement for the base. If you make mega-armies it's nearly impossible to fulfill the supply requirements, much less get double so that you can draw squads (altho having cities upstream with 2x supply will feed you replacements, just not as many).

-F-