Moses vs WITP_Dude--China AAR

[moses]

This will be an AAR of a China only game. WITP_Dude is allied, I am playing Japan. The allies will be allowed to use the AVG in China and Japan will get one zero group and one extra bomber group. The Burma road will be closed in March if we get that far.

7-9 Dec: Forces deploy for combat. In the North it appears that China is withdrawing from Yenan. The Chinese are assuming more aggresive postures as you go south. Along the Sien/Honan axis, a chinese corps has cut the rail line. In Changsa it looks as if the Chinese intend to hold as a large force has gathered in this city. Chinese forces have also moved adjacent to Canton in the far south.

[moses]

7-13 DEC: China is definately abandoning Yenam. There appears to be only the 90th C Corps there and my guys will take this city in a couple days without much of a fight. In the central area WITP_Dude has launched two raids; one from Homan which cut the main rail for a couple days and now a corp from Ichang is moving down the road. It still looks as if he intends to fight in Changsa and in the area of Canton as he is maintaining large forces in both areas.

In the air 15 ground strikes were made at a cost of 8 JP aircraft. Allied losses were 9 planes mostl occuring when the chinese tried to contest the air over Changsa with I-15's. Most JP losses were bombers lost to flak and OPS. The AVG has not made an apperance so I assume he is upgrading these aircraft prior to commiting them.



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/09/41

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Ground combat at Hong Kong

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 24409 troops, 327 guns, 17 vehicles

Defending force 13250 troops, 122 guns, 4 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


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Ground combat at 50,31---Rail hex south of Honan cutting main line.

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 26525 troops, 313 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 8370 troops, 60 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/10/41

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Ground combat at Hong Kong

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 24458 troops, 328 guns, 17 vehicles

Defending force 13240 troops, 121 guns, 4 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
1 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


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Ground combat at 50,31--Rail hex south of Honan cutting main line.

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 45225 troops, 526 guns, 6 vehicles

Defending force 8381 troops, 60 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
631 casualties reported
Guns lost 17

Allied ground losses:
75 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/11/41


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Ground combat at Hong Kong

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 33372 troops, 329 guns, 17 vehicles

Defending force 13260 troops, 121 guns, 4 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 5


Japanese ground losses:
317 casualties reported
Guns lost 8
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
230 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/12/41

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Ground combat at Hong Kong

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 32852 troops, 322 guns, 16 vehicles

Defending force 12992 troops, 110 guns, 4 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)


Japanese ground losses:
67 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
147 casualties reported
Guns lost 13

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/13/41


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Ground combat at Hong Kong

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 24050 troops, 322 guns, 15 vehicles

Defending force 12768 troops, 98 guns, 4 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
77 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

[racndoc]

Edited

[racndoc]

Edited

[moses]

14-16 Dec:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/14/41

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Ground combat at Hong Kong

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 24159 troops, 326 guns, 15 vehicles

Defending force 12876 troops, 97 guns, 4 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
196 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

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Ground combat at Hong Kong

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 10931 troops, 74 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 36087 troops, 326 guns, 15 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
931 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Why not? HK's going to fall anyway so a one in a thousand attack is not so bad.
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Ground combat at Yenen

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 17177 troops, 206 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7387 troops, 54 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
37 casualties reported

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/15/41


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Ground combat at Hong Kong

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 33206 troops, 328 guns, 15 vehicles

Defending force 11633 troops, 83 guns, 4 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 18 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Hong Kong base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
154 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Allied ground losses:
13462 casualties reported
Guns lost 75
Vehicles lost 1

The base is captured nearly intact. Supplies are captured which will allow the base to be fully repaired without bringing in outside supplies.
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Ground combat at Yenen

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 17935 troops, 228 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7303 troops, 54 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
85 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/16/41

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Ground combat at 47,35--This is the hex adjacent to Changsa where my forces are massing. The 4th New Chinese Corps and the 8th Chinese Corps enter this hex and are promptly expelled.
Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 171148 troops, 2027 guns, 158 vehicles

Defending force 15598 troops, 116 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 84 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
54 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Allied ground losses:
2201 casualties reported
Guns lost 41


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

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Ground combat at Yenen

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 84515 troops, 1033 guns, 16 vehicles

Defending force 7224 troops, 51 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Japanese assault odds: 256 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Yenen base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
1015 casualties reported
Guns lost 27


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!
Only the 90th Chinese Corps is defending here. The base is taken entirely intact.
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Ground combat at 50,31--The Chinese have cut the rail line south of Honan again.

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 45736 troops, 542 guns, 7 vehicles

Defending force 9069 troops, 67 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
37 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

[moses]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/17/41
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Ground combat at 50,31

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 45830 troops, 543 guns, 7 vehicles

Defending force 8948 troops, 62 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
33 casualties reported
Guns lost 1



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/18/41
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Ground combat at 50,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 46051 troops, 545 guns, 7 vehicles

Defending force 8906 troops, 61 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 121 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
209 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
596 casualties reported
Guns lost 19


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/19/41
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Ground combat at Changsha

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 56151 troops, 377 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 175624 troops, 2061 guns, 158 vehicles

Getting no casualties from this free bombardment has to be a disappointment.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/20/41
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Ground combat at Changsha

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 161958 troops, 2073 guns, 23 vehicles

Defending force 65296 troops, 401 guns, 0 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
639 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

After failing to inflict any losses on my forces last turn (I'm sure just bad luck) the chinese decline to counter-bombard this turn.
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Ground combat at 50,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 65190 troops, 780 guns, 6 vehicles

Defending force 7997 troops, 66 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 76 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
162 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Allied ground losses:
219 casualties reported
Guns lost 12


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

For a third time I drive a Chinese Corps from this hex.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/21/41
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Ground combat at Changsha

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 173500 troops, 2080 guns, 162 vehicles

Defending force 64067 troops, 394 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Changsha base !!!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
SB-2c: 11 destroyed---The base falls sooner then expected and so the planes are not evacuated.

Japanese ground losses:
652 casualties reported
Guns lost 17
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
5104 casualties reported
Guns lost 62

A major victory!! China had only 6 Inf Corps, 1 Cav Corps, and 2 Divisions to face 8 full Japanese divisions with a full compliment of supporting arms and air support. The fact that my forces suffered no disruption in the two turns prior to the attack I'm sure contributed to their rapid success. Still the fall of Changsa in one turn came as a surprise to me and I'm sure to Dude.

[WiTP_Dude]

The performance of the Chinese units is disappointing to say the least. However I was expecting the loss of Changsa but not so soon. With 3 fortifications and that many units I was hoping to hold through a few rounds of combat.

Also all the units that got thrown out of Changsa now have 0 supply and around 98 fatigue. This is why a Chinese player needs a reserve behind Changsa, otherwise the Japanese player can play kick the can with these units.

[WiTP_Dude]

I have to say again that the placement of Chinese units borders on the criminal. Half their army is stuck out in the hinterland for months on end. There isn't anything out there.

Why? Can whoever made the map explain the placement of Chinese units? Please?

[moses]

I suspect that IRL the Chinese deployed units in places where they could be fed and supplied. IRL a Japanese drive on Chungking (or pretty much anywhere else) would take several months and so you would have time to redeploy.

In the game the deployments make no sence.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: moses

I suspect that IRL the Chinese deployed units in places where they could be fed and supplied. IRL a Japanese drive on Chungking (or pretty much anywhere else) would take several months and so you would have time to redeploy.

In the game the deployments make no sence.

Well, here is the problem: if these areas have a lot of agriculture to feed men, then this isn't some wild wilderness with only trails to move by. Speeds of more than three miles per day should be possible in any agricultural region.

[moses]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/23/41
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Day Air attack on Chungking , at 43,32

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 23
I-16c x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 10 destroyed
I-16c: 4 destroyed

The first real clash with the AVG. 3 zeros were lost against 4 P-40B's.
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Ground combat at 50,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 65425 troops, 783 guns, 7 vehicles

Defending force 15024 troops, 99 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 11 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
385 casualties reported
Guns lost 9

Allied ground losses:
252 casualties reported
Guns lost 18


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/24/41
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Ground combat at 46,36-- This is the hex NW of Changsa next to the river crossing to Chungking
Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 89736 troops, 1057 guns, 11 vehicles

Defending force 11997 troops, 42 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 55 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
25 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
868 casualties reported
Guns lost 8


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/26/41

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Ground combat at 50,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 70294 troops, 871 guns, 23 vehicles--It is clear that I now have a large force south of Honan and Sien.
Defending force 8651 troops, 69 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 61 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
42 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Allied ground losses:
669 casualties reported
Guns lost 25


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Allied units continue to advance into this hex south of Homan and then are rapidly defeated. I don't see how this is helping the Chinese but perhaps they are gaining experience.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: moses

Allied units continue to advance into this hex south of Homan and then are rapidly defeated. I don't see how this is helping the Chinese but perhaps they are gaining experience.

Do you know if the system awards experience for lost battles? I've never bothered to look.

[moses]

I'm pretty sure that you gain experience but I doubt it is worth the losses from being forced to retreat. Still when you have units with experience of 30 its hard for the unit to get worse.

[moses]

December is complete.

In the center I currently occupy Hengchow and Changsa. Dude has engineered an interesting defence. He sends small forces (a corps or two) into hexes occupied by my units which then must halt movement in order to drive him out. If my guys are going to an enemy occupied hex then my movement is halted automatically whenever his unit enters my hex.

This has to cause him to lose a ton of casualties due to the frequent retreats but in the present situation it may be advantageous to him as I am not sure if I will be able to make forward progress without taking a good chunk of time to redeploy. My forces in Hengchow are essentially immobilized at times because of an enemy corps in that hex and another in the rail hex to the NE. I drive them out and then another arrives.

Further north the 4 Chinese Corps in Iching have moved into the city 2 hexes to the SE. I should be able to hold the city but it is not a sure thing. It would not be a serious loss but it is an irritant.

I defeated 5 corps one hex SE of Honan and am now moving into that city. I do not think the strategy Dude is employing in the Hengchow area will be as effective here as I will have more secure flanks.

In the far North evrything is quiet since the fall of Yenem.

[WiTP_Dude]

I'm trying to keep the Japanese pinned as long as possible to buy time for all those units stuck on the trail. Once they are in place and rested the Chinese defense will be a lot stronger.

[moses]

Jan 10 complete:

The rail line connecting Canton to Changsa is nearly occupied. I've cleared the two hexes north of Canton and hex 45,38 east of Kweilin. Dude has stopped his pinning tactics allowing my units to move more freely. I can only assume that these tactics were causing him more losses then he felt he could bear. Or it could be that his supply situation was getting too difficult forceing him into a more passive defence. He has established a line with significant forces in Wuchow, Kweilin, and along the river line north of Changsa. My forces are deployed mostly along the rail line with a few units south of the line trying to reduce two Chinese Corps which are essentially surrounded.

Dude made an attack Hsinyang (opposite Ichang) which nearly succeded. He achieved a 3-1 attack on his first try and I though the base would certainly fall within a couple turns. I survived by sending a small force toward Ichang along the trail south of the city. Since I suspect the city was defended only by a base force unit, The chinese had to withdraw units from Hsinyang to protect their supply line. Constant Japanese air attacks against the remaining Chinese assault force made their life even more difficult and the attack pettered out. Currently Hsinyang is held in force and I have advanced a couple divisions toward Ichang. The Chinese have retreated my small naval guard unit from Ichang but I would guess that their adventure south has weakened them considerably.

Homan has been taken without too much of a fight. The main Chinese forces appear to be concentrated in Sien. All hexes NW of the rail line to Homan are occupied jointly and bombard each day. This front is static for the moment as forces from here had to be sent to save Hsinyang.

The far north is quiet.

In the air losses are 75 planes for the allies lost of which 23 are P-40's. Jap losses are 39 planes including 6 zero's. Dude has been using his bombers primarily for recon and only recently has launched a few small attacks against ground units. My air force has been use to bomb ground units on a daily basis. I use the Nates for escort with my zero's being used for periodic sweeps of allied air bases.

Ground loss VP's stand at 908 allied losses vs 9 JP losses. Of course an untold amount of the allied losses occured in other theaters where the allies start the game with units having more than 50% of units disrupted. I would estimate that maybe a few hundred of the losses occured in this way and this effect should be diminishing as the war goes on.

[WiTP_Dude]

I think I have to wait for your next move. There isn't much more I can do at this point until you decide where you will be attacking.

[WiTP_Dude]

The situation as of the middle of January:

[mogami]

Hi, The Chinese and Japanese fought a major battle at Changsha in Sept 1941. The Chinese won retaking the city. Those Chinese units in the field are the ones that had surrounded the Japanese. The Japanese had dropped paratroops behind Changsha and drove in and captured the city. The Chinese had surrounded the entire force and killed over 40k Japanese before they could fight their way back out. The Japanese recovered faster due to their better supply lines and the fact the Chinese had used the last of their ready reserve in the battle. This battle did have the effect of removing several units from transfering to Southern Area Army for use against Western Allies in coming Pacific War. (it also made it very hard for SAA to request help later)
The loss of so many elite paratroops is why those in SAA are undersize and ill trained (and so few transports on hand)( all the paratroops dropped were lost)
The battle also had the effect of making China Army very reluctant to begin any new offensive operation before Allied bombers gave them a good excuse.

[WiTP_Dude]

So you are saying the Chinese setup is correct in WiTP? I don't agree.