to the poeple at matrix on version 5.3

[MalleusDei]

You guys are confusing the difficulty of spotting something with the difficulty of killing it.

Yes, Krull, it can indeed be a ringtailed bitch to spot a sniper...but once you have a solo sniper spotted, he's just another solo target, and he's no more immune to direct or indirect fire than the next man. Ditto AT teams or sniper teams as compared to other infantry. There's nothing magic about them and they have no special immunities to fire - they get WIA/KIA just like everyone else does.

In SPWAW once you have something SPOTTED it should be no harder to render it combat ineffective than it is to do so to such a SPOTTED unit in real life. And the problem that I have with SPWAW 5.2+ is about how hard it is to do that to some SPOTTED infantry targets.

You want to make it harder to spot a sniper or an AT team? Or even AFV crewmen? That would be a viable solution.

But they are NOT the supermen they are made out to be in 5.2+.

[David Heath]

Hi Guys

I guess I let it out. We are working on v5.4 and improving things. Look you don't like it don't wimp out and quit. Give us your feed back and lets see what can be done. This is the first time we really have not had 100% yea to an update.

Let us hear what you got to say. Matrix has always been a company that listens and tries to give the people want they want.

For the record we are not 100% happy with the v5.3 either.... so Mike Wood, Paul Vebber, Bill Wilder and myself are working on it. It will be a little while before we are done so do nag us yet.... but please play v5.3 and help us make all of us a better SPWAW game.

[Randy]

David, will the new Mega Campaign disks have the 5.2-4 upgrades on them? Thanks
Semper Fi
Randy

[BruceAZ_MatrixForum]

Originally posted by David Heath:
Hi Guys

I guess I let it out. We are working on v5.4 and improving things.

The only problem with progress is those that like to develop scenarios and campaigns are constantly concerned if all the upgrades/patches/improvements, etc will affect their work.

All in all, I am satisfied with 5.3 and I am sure Matrix can tweak somethimg to try and make everyone happy. The only thing I have seen that is somewhat off the mark is the level bombers. Sometimes you get the sound but don't see the craters. That's it.

I like 5.3 and if the infantry realism gets out of whack, I twaek the settings and soften it. Seem to solve the problem. Anyway, I am in for duration.

Bruce
Semper Fi

[Commander Klank]

I wouldn't delete SPWAW from your computer just yet. I'm sure the "crew" thing will get worked out the way other problums have in the past. but I really think the infantry should stay pretty much the way they are now.

As Wild Bill ponted out the small unit thing is a bit unrealalistic right now and I have no dout the Matrix crew will fix it up a bit.

I like the idea about small units being hard to spot; esspesally if they don't fire at any one. Perhaps thats the answer.

Then again I think some players got spoiled at killing every enemy soldier they could find which was reather easy in 5.1 and below.

Hang in there man!

[BigDuke66]

I agree with MalleusDei.
If I can see it I can kill it and everything that I have to do for is to take a bit time to aim.
So I like the Idea that smaller units like Partisans or guys like sniper who has a good camouflage are harder to spot, but IF they are spoted they should be dead mead.
Right now I really hate it to see them but not be able to kill them .

[ruxius]

For my first time I want to say I COMPLETELY AGREE with Sven !
That should be recorded somewhere!

<Font size="1"> I am tired of the 'I'm leaving but hear me whine' crowd. I would hope that if people felt that strongly about flaws they would document them and allow Matrix the chance to tweak it just a little finer. Constructive criticism is great, but a hit and run complaint is whining
</Font>

The Zel is clearly one who never cared about SPWAW..you can see he is not here to answer a tought..he wanted only to dicredit ..
if he didn't like the new versions why erasing everything ?
And also how could he ignore that there is a specific topic in this forum titled "What do you think about v5.3 ? " by D.Heath..
And here we can read posts from WB,Paul And the same Heath clearly showing their true efforts to make things good for everyone..

The Zel uses this excuse for other purposes..
I don't like false people
One who likes and liked pre5.3 SPWAW can't throw it away for this silly excuse !
And any MEgaC as it extends the SPWAW itself CAN'T BE REDUCED TO THIS ISSUE !!!!

Matrix does not deserve such guys !
But they are still wide-opened towards them ..admirable !


I think MallusDei says the right :

<Font size="1">..it can indeed be a ringtailed bitch to spot a sniper...but once you have a solo sniper spotted, he's just another solo target, and he's no more immune to direct or indirect fire than the next man. Ditto AT teams or sniper teams as compared to other infantry. There's nothing magic about them and they have no special immunities to fire - they get WIA/KIA just like everyone else does.
But they are NOT the supermen they are made out to be in 5.2+.
</font>

This should be the direction for ver 5.4
We all understand that a large amount of fire can't be useless..in some way it must count ! especially if more than one unit is specifically doing a hunting fire mission in one hex..

[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: ruxius ]

[Joe Osborne]

Originally posted by Wild Bill:


What concerns me the most is how difficult it is to kill units of 3 or less.


As a general rule I'm very pleased because I think it is more realistic dealing with infantry BUT, being unable to take out small units is frustrating and somewhat unrealistic.

Example: I had a German Pzschrk unit hidden in some trees. I surrounded it with two Shermans and an engineer squad. I fired at it a total of 14 times, including HE, MG (repeatedly) Flamethrower, satchel charge and small arms fire.

I've seen something similar, but I look at it this way....what is easier to spot in a 50 meter wide tree hex...14 guys or one...Paul's made a point somewhere in here that we the player have a "God's Eye" view but our guys on the ground in the game don't have the same info...so although to the player it seems kooky why a small unit can survive longer it does carry some logic...but it may be a bit overdone....


I'll go on record saying I think this is the finest version of SPWAW/SP I've played. The modeling of infantry is extremely realistic. For those of you that don't think so go see that movie that was recently made on the Huertgen Forest battles (somebody help....movie name escapes me...old age )....

Also, when asked Patton stated the most important element of the American side of victory was artillery!

It just stands to reason...humans running around in the open tend to die very quickly against massed rifle fire or MG fire...those that hide in a building tend to die extremely less...that's why you use smoke and cover to advance ...artillery to brekdown defenders..and engineers to root them out...Am I missing something here? These always seemed to be the basic tactctical rules of WW2 warfare....and the last time I checked SPWAW was a WARgame....


I like my wargaming experience to be war-like...not a hex based, top down, 2d version of "Half Life". What I think we may be seeing here is the divide between those that come to computer wargaming from the old boardgame genre (of which I am one), and those that come to it from just computer play....two different perspectives. I think each of these perspectives can be satisfied to a large degree in SPWAW by adjusting the preferences. I've not seen a game yet that is as flexible to play as SPWAW. So I am at a loss to understand the complaining from some that Matrix has "screwed the pooch" on this one....

Joe Osborne

[waynef]

Im glad to hear Matrix is working on 5.4.

5.3 needs work on mopping up enemy units of 3 men or less. We have all seen the threads on the unkillable tank crews. I have had this happen many times. A tank crew completely surounded by infantry and tanks, yet I spend 3-4-5 turns trying to kill them. Super Crews must go.

Sound patch (200+ meg download)...WOW.. GREAT! Thanks

Mega campaign...got it last week. PreOrdered 3/29! As long as I GOT IT I dont mind. I will gladly buy again. Cant wait for the turn based modern CL/CA (by the way, you really need a NAME for that game).

Thanks Matrix, you have kept a long time Steel Panthers fan happy. Its funny, with all the games that have come and gone over the years, Steel Panthers is still my favorite (Matrix SPW@W that is), and always finds its way to my hard drive.

Thanks

[Phil]

I tend to agree with the crowd that finds small groups a little too invinceable. During wargames at good ol'Fort Polk, the few times I found myself alone or isolated during a battle, I rarely lasted longer than a few minutes. The same went when the situation was reversed. A spotted enemy usually turned up a "crispy critter" quite quickly.
BUT.............
Can't this be helped in the preferences? What settings should be adjusted? Just "Hitting" and "Spotting", or is there something else?

[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Phil ]

[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Phil ]

[Panzer Capta]

Perhaps i am missing the significance of the issues here, but from a tactical point of view, why would anyone committ 3 squads and a tank crew to eliminate a 3-troop contingency when there are far more important objectives to attain in the oveall scheme of things?

Panzer Captain

[ruxius]

Originally posted by Panzer Captain:
why would anyone committ 3 squads and a tank crew to eliminate a 3-troop contingency when there are far more important objectives to attain in the oveall scheme of things?

IMO The answer of your question seats in the fact that this invincible crews , snipers etc.. are acting an active role sometimes better than other more specific units , and this happens beyond the fact they still can stay unspotted...
If difficulty to eliminate them means they are providing a superb cover for themselves this would also mean they can't destroy tanks ecc.ecc.
except for rare odds..
It seems not to be so in ver.5.3
While crews are looking for their cover,
we should remember that hunting-for-them infantries are not masses of blind soldiers
unable to locate where fire arrives from !
I agree that an hex may offer good chances for hiding..but they can't appear and then doing (while not receiving) damage..
if crews were not harmful players will easily not care about them..

Three inf squads should not loose their 'credit' compared to a crew..

On the other hand I would defend the idea that brought us a version 5.3 : it's good that a crew sometimes can add more fun to SPWAW but no super-powers...

Now I think it's only a question of balancing things better..
I raise my favor again for the point of MallusDei and I would also add that powering up infantry should not lower down a tank authority in the battlefield,unless the tank put itself in a dangerous way...

[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: ruxius ]

[General Mayhem]

Originally posted by ruxius:


...

Now I think it's only a question of balancing things better..
I raise my favor again for the point of MallusDei and I would also add that powering up infantry should not lower down a tank authority in the battlefield,unless the tank put itself in a dangerous way...

[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: ruxius ]

Far as I've understood, only very brief time
tanks offered clear advantage over other
forms of arms in II world war. Mainly early
campaigns Germans had 39-41.

More war went on, I've understood tanks became more to support infantry against
other tanks and also support them against other infantry.

What came propably overstates is that every
and each squad can assault with hand grenades
alone easily. Which makes me bit wonder why
develop AT weapons at all?

I don't know, but I bit suspect each and
every trooper didn't try in II world war climb top of tank while it motion, and then being able to open the hatch dropping grenade the inside the tank.

Propably problem with game engine.

[TheChin]

There is a simple solution: Alt-O and Alt-M

I just played a scen under 5.3. I started the big campaign but decided to start with Japanese cuz it doesn't seem to be very popular and I wanted something different. I cranked the clock back to 39 and started in East Asia. My first battle was against the Sovs and in 39, it was a HUGE infantry battle. At first I was making no headway, doing the exact tactics mentioned elsewhere, surround squads/crews/snipers with tanks and infantry and fire away. All I got was suppression and a few casualities, but the enemy was pinned and not a factor. So I started running into the hexes with them after suppression and using the overrun/melee and I started mopping them in nothing flat. I know it was japanese and they have good melee (Banzai! Banzai! Banzai!) but it really shouldn't be that different for others.

It's another case of people unwilling to change their tactics to suit their enemy. I for one, would not want any of these people giving up on 5.3 to be Generals in my countries army. The first curve ball the enemy would throw at them and they would quit.

Alt-O,Alt-F...Use It, Live by It, Win by It... at least where infantry is concerned.

One thing I love about 5.3 is that tanks have assumed their real role, Infantry support. They aren't WWI biplanes out duelling other tanks in some kind of romanticized dance. They are there to provide hardened gun support so that the infantry can take ground and hold it.

[m10bob]

i like ver 5.3 but nothing is perfect..at Malmedy,the survivers did survive because they literally jumped up and ran,with perhaps a hundred "witnesses",many firing with smg's,lmg's,and rifles..i'm pretty sure that's not an isolated incident..i do feel however that once a unit (or depleted unit) has been "spotted",by the next game turn anyway,it SHOULD be much easier to either hit or cause to "meld into the woodwork"..perhaps the frustrations we feel at unloading "turn after turn" are the same as the grunts after missing a "flagrant target",i just don't feel it would be a "miss" after too many rounds...every g.i. i know had to "qualify" before he (or she) got out of basic...the orig SP was too abstract..if a unit even "looked" at an enemy it got 5 or 6 kills,(which might be good for an ambush,but sure not typical)..if it can just be tweaked to a typical "drop" of 1 or 2 every time a full squad fires,(target in the open)i feel it would be more credible of historic fact..i already got in trouble a few months ago when i said arty killed way more than the small rounds,but then again,the infantry wasn't just boiled cabbage either....I THANK MY LUCKY STARS FOR THE CREW AT MATRIX AND WILL NEVER DESERT THEM FOR DISAGREEING WITH ME,and sure as hell want take my ball home,but as much as i want this to be a reflection of real history,it's a game folks,and these good people have kept a game alive that might have fallen by the wayside already!!!!KEEP IT UP MATRIX AND CONTINUED SUCCESS!!!!

[Big Bill]

Did I miss something??? I would think a good reason to completly eliminate a unit would be to score a kill. Isn't this how you build up expereance ratings for your troops in a campaigne game??
I also agree that it should be harder to spot smaller units but the tremondious amount of fire power and time on target you have to expend to eleminate a sniper just isn't realistic...so I'll be waiting for the patch while still playing the best war game out there!!

[krull]

I going off the fact 50 ms is alot ground whenye ron foot. AS for these remarks if ya can see it ay can kill it. Thats it YOU the player might see it. But your troops?.

How many of yall been in real firefights. You usualy dont know if its 1 guy or 50 if its nosiy from friendly fire and enemy fire. MOST troops tend to spray an area.
the above post on if he sees it he could kill it is wrong. I have 9 purple hearts bud. And it took over 1000 rounds to get me in buildings jumngle and rocks. Thats from Several groups of men all firing.
My brothes went thru WW 2 while i was to young. My older brother died in korea. he had 24 Armored vehicle kills in WW 2 and 12 in korea as a bazooka man. He lost alot loaders but that didnt stop them.
On the way home for Chosen. We got shot up surrounded Artillaryed bombs tank rushed infabtry charged. And Alot times we had to be on open sloops and roads. SO please tell me why people think ANY man on foot should be weak? Youd be surprised how tough men bailying out of trucks tanks jeeps kitchens hospital beds can be when in combat and afraid of dieing. Most men dont just flee. Some will some wont but if they dont think they can make it a 102 pound punk can tur into one of the most Vicious killers people have every seen.

crews need some toning down but its not unusual to have whole battalions hunting down a small grou of men behind lines. Use nam and Korea as An example. As well as WW 2. It happened quit alot.

[TheChin]

y'know, I'm more upset about this original post then I thouight. How can anyone "regret" buying the MC when they haven't gotten it yet? It's ridiculous! Especially because it is 5.01! And who said 5.3 was the final version? I've never seen that posted anywhere. It's a work in progress and will continue to improve until Combat Leader at least. I'm starting to get a "temper tantrum" vibe from that post. Maybe such emotional outbursts worked well with Zel's mommy, but we're all adults here.

[Big Bill]

To Thechin
I was playing USMC vs. Japan and had snipers and SNLF units compleatly supressed, surronded, overrun, and melee turn after turn with very little success, I like infintry battles but this just got so tedious that it wasn't enjoyable anymore, maybe I shouldn't say this out loud but...........I do like to get some FUN and ENJOYMENT out of playing war games. I recentlly had my first PBEM game and even though I got my clock cleaned by AmmoSgt the game was FUN!

[sven]

Originally posted by TheChin:
y'know, I'm more upset about this original post then I thouight. How can anyone "regret" buying the MC when they haven't gotten it yet? It's ridiculous! Especially because it is 5.01! And who said 5.3 was the final version? I've never seen that posted anywhere. It's a work in progress and will continue to improve until Combat Leader at least. I'm starting to get a "temper tantrum" vibe from that post. Maybe such emotional outbursts worked well with Zel's mommy, but we're all adults here.

Chin that is the thing... David Heath has said that 5.3 is NOT the final. He says that 5.4 is being worked on as we type. Matrix is doing their best to finish and perfect a 'free' game.

I think that the first post in this thread was a temper tantrum from a guy that thinks that 'Tanks Rule!'. Hey I love tanks, but they are just a PART of a combined arms team. I fear too many people want the Blitzkrieg that was in the Battle of France.

Well that was not reality. Blitzkrieg works only when your enemy is dumb enough to let it. Blitzkrieg was also at its heart a different slant on combined arms.

Ivan stepped on Fritz's throat at Kursk because he decided to not be dumb. Defense in depth and killing the Tank kills the blitz. The German forces never recovered after Kursk.

regards,
sven