to the poeple at matrix on version 5.3

[TheZel66]

Guys:
I've been playing 5.2/5.3 all week. I think you've really screwed the pooch on SPWAW. This game used to be fun; now its a pain to play. I doubt i will ever again. I regret ordering the Mega-campaign; not for the fact that i haven't gotten it yet, I can deal with that. the fact that 5.2&5.3 have ruined the game.

I know you're interested in making it as real as possible, but that should not go in favor of making the game fun. Infantry based scenerios are all out of wack. I'm sorry, but speding three turns having an entire infrantry company tasked with taking out a crew of 2 of a destroyed tank is boring and useless.


I made a scenerio which is entirely based on infantry, and there's no way for the attacker to win. I know, you can change the preferences to reduce the affect on your change. it's still not the same, and doesn't completely reduce the new infantry rules.

This change may be great for all the veteran players of the game, but it will kill any chance you have of getting new players on board.

Software's like anything else: if you tweak iut too much, you end up with a worse product than you started with. that's what you've done..

Oh well... Have fun... Bye

[Arto]

You have a right to your own opinion. But you can play the earlier versions and in MC the version is 5.01.

But I think it is great to have a game which is realistic. There are hundreds of games like Red Alert which are nice (even I have the first one) but not realistic and realistic game is what I want. And now I have it, thanks!

[sven]

Originally posted by TheZel:
Guys:
I've been playing 5.2/5.3 all week. I think you've really screwed the pooch on SPWAW. This game used to be fun; now its a pain to play. I doubt i will ever again. I regret ordering the Mega-campaign; not for the fact that i haven't gotten it yet, I can deal with that. the fact that 5.2&5.3 have ruined the game.

I know you're interested in making it as real as possible, but that should not go in favor of making the game fun. Infantry based scenerios are all out of wack. I'm sorry, but speding three turns having an entire infrantry company tasked with taking out a crew of 2 of a destroyed tank is boring and useless.


I made a scenerio which is entirely based on infantry, and there's no way for the attacker to win. I know, you can change the preferences to reduce the affect on your change. it's still not the same, and doesn't completely reduce the new infantry rules.

This change may be great for all the veteran players of the game, but it will kill any chance you have of getting new players on board.

Software's like anything else: if you tweak iut too much, you end up with a worse product than you started with. that's what you've done..

Oh well... Have fun... Bye

I guess we should make a 'virtual' scissors rock and paper? Are you sure that your steel.prf file was deleted? Did you ever consider that Infantry was grossly too easy to kill in 5.1?

I doubt it. Guys like the 'beer and pretzel' crowd are what ruined the Panzer General franchise. If you want a simple game of checkers look elsewhere.

I find the whole attitude of the 'you guys killed the golden goose' crowd a bit weird. Matrix is easily the most responsive game company I have seen, and if enough whine the 'fix' will get 'fixed'. That is business.

Personally I find the attitude of the historically ignorant amusing. Let me clue you in on a little fact: Tanks were not the premier killer of Infantry, nor was the rifle. Artllery ruled the battlefield.

I am sad that you have decided to 'leave', but if your attitude is that the game should be 'less' real for no other reason than you do not want to relearn tactics DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU ON THE WAY OUT! The game was ridiculous in its handling of the infantry model before, but I didn't shrug and say 'Bye!' instead all of a like mind said:'The infantry is too weak'. This contention was also backed up by historic data.

The scenarios WILL be fixed if they are that out of whack. You can bet on it. We true SPWAW fans are getting more and more hands on all the time. We need to help Paul Vebber, and Matrix not expect them to go belly up for a free game.

Have Fun,(and BYE!)
Sven

[General Mayhem]

Originally posted by sven:

business.

Personally I find the attitude of the historically ignorant amusing. Let me clue you in on a little fact: Tanks were not the premier killer of Infantry, nor was the rifle. Artllery ruled the battlefield.

Have Fun,(and BYE!)
Sven

True, but I'd add artillery with infantry. First time I feel infantry is right way vulnerable and same time real pain in the ass. It's really vulnerable if in move,
but if fortified hard to get to move, tieng
lot of resources.

[sven]

Originally posted by General Mayhem:


True, but I'd add artillery with infantry. First time I feel infantry is right way vulnerable and same time real pain in the ass. It's really vulnerable if in move,
but if fortified hard to get to move, tieng
lot of resources.

and Mayhem that is exactly as it should be...

if you move you die, but if you sit still you fail.

regards,
sven

wow! we agree on something

[Big Bill]

I'M playing 5.3, the cave busting tutorial and I was also shocked how hard it is to kill a Jap sniper!! surrounded, overrun, turn after turn he's still kicking! So I have to leave a platoon of infintry on top of him and bypass with the rest to continue with the attack!! Got to a point that it wasn't fun anymore so I tried the first scenireo, Germans against Russian, everything seems fine in this one.
I dont know if I still have the steel.prf file installed, does anybody know if it can be deleted after the game is installed? How do you know if its still there?? Any way i'm only on the first scenerio, it is much better than fighting the Japs! I'll keep playing any way
Bill

[sven]

Originally posted by Big Bill:
I'M playing 5.3, the cave busting tutorial and I was also shocked how hard it is to kill a Jap sniper!! surrounded, overrun, turn after turn he's still kicking! So I have to leave a platoon of infintry on top of him and bypass with the rest to continue with the attack!! Got to a point that it wasn't fun anymore so I tried the first scenireo, Germans against Russian, everything seems fine in this one.
I dont know if I still have the steel.prf file installed, does anybody know if it can be deleted after the game is installed? How do you know if its still there?? Any way i'm only on the first scenerio, it is much better than fighting the Japs! I'll keep playing any way
Bill

Bill the Steel.Prf is in the save file. You can delete it after you have installed. I did this and enjoyed 5.2, but I fell inlove with the 5.3 version.

You are gonna love how tough it is to kill the Soviet PTRD teams. I use hammer and anvil to kill the snipers and anti-tankers. You advance the anvil, stop call in an arty strike, and then flank them with the hammer.(I then usually overrun or melee)

Have fun,
sven

[Paul Vebber]

Trying to get a game that is both fun and resonates with folks take on "realism" is next to impossible...We try different things and see how they go. THe basic idea of 5.3 I believe is sound, there are some sticky points with how certain circumstances occur that are problematic.

THe next Mega Campaign is in teh final throes, and we are looking at 5.3 and how it affects it. So for now a couple of things to think about when playing 5.3:

1) Its tough to wipe out every enemy trooper on the battlefield. Your god's eye view of teh battlefield gives you info on the enemy that it is assumed your troops don;t all have. You may know its only 3 guys, but your troops may think its a whole squad.

2) If it hurts when you do ..this...DOn;t do that! Yes, some overkill situations don;t seem reasonable...we are working on that...but if sending 2 platoons and 3 tanks to kill 3 enemy troops doesn;t work very welll...don;t do it! A squad or two left in teh same hex to melee the guys will get them eventually and the enemy units will likely be suppressed to high heaven. See note one about it not being reasonable to expect to wipe out every enemy trooper...

3) Cover is called that for a reason...Again there may be some overkill situations that are a bit strange, but take ASL sor example. A single squads chances of casuing a morale check on an enemy squad in a stone building was by rolling a 2 or 3 that is a 1 in 12 chance-now in theri you can "add together" fire to get higher column shifts, and 3 squads together needed a 6 or less or a42% chance - but that meant a 58% chance of doing nothing. 18 shots in 5.3 against a stone building will generally leave enemy highly suppressed. If lucky you might get a couple kills and willeventually get the guy out. IT might take 2 or 3 turns, but in ASL it was the same, even if you got a MC, the enemy with good leader would likely pass it.

So keep playing it, make sure you delete your steel.prf file, and try thinking in terms of getting to the objectives and forcing teh enemy to come to you (and by moving greatly increas his vulnerability)

We are looking into the problems that have been pointed out and understand the wedge that seems to be driven between "game players" and "histroy recreators". We are NOT trying to push teh game players away, teh preferences in theory allow boths sides to coexist, we are working on how to solve the dilemma...It will be critical to the success of Combat Leader.

So keep giving input, both "I love it" and it SUCKS...but if the latter please explain why, so we can work it out!

[Paul Vebber]

On the steel.prf, its in teh SAVE folder and if you delete it and restart the game it builds a new one. this shoud be done whenecver you upgrade the game to a new exe.

[Big Bill]

Thanks ill delete the file and try again, but like I said the first scenerio played fine, I played german first and won, now i'm doing it from the russian side and also winning so everything seems fine, but still 3 platoons plus overunning a sniper is a little disheartening but overall the game is still great!!!!
Bill

[Wild Bill]

Hello Zel!

I'm really disappointed to get this kind of news from you.

I know you have been a staunch supporter of our efforts. To see you come to this conclusion with even talking it over is almost hurtful.

When have you ever known us or me to so closed as to not to consider other points of view?

I see some good and a little bad in 5.3. What concerns me the most is how difficult it is to kill units of 3 or less.

I have expended hundreds of rounds of ammunition, tank fire and anything else I can find. Alas, they seem impervious.

As a general rule I'm very pleased because I think it is more realistic dealing with infantry BUT, being unable to take out small units is frustrating and somewhat unrealistic.

Example: I had a German Pzschrk unit hidden in some trees. I surrounded it with two Shermans and an engineer squad. I fired at it a total of 14 times, including HE, MG (repeatedly) Flamethrower, satchel charge and small arms fire.

He was not even suppressed, I don't think because he kept firing back (and killed a Sherman in the process).

That is extreme.

But that is part of the ongoing perfecting process. Don't give up. Keep us abreast of what you find in the game. That to a large degree is why we have made the progress that we have.

Wild Bill

[MalleusDei]

I tried 5.2 and 5.3 and didn't like either of them, so I am back playing 5.01.

Based on field experience, I can tell you that such things as snipers, AT teams, and vehicle crewmen just aren't that hard to kill. Been there, done that, have the T-shirt. And my stepfather says it wasn't significantly different in WWII either.

So, I think that I have reached the end of the line with SPWAW. Thanks for making a great game - 5.01, that is.

[sven]

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
Hello Zel!

I'm really disappointed to get this kind of news from you.

I know you have been a staunch supporter of our efforts. To see you come to this conclusion with even talking it over is almost hurtful.

When have you ever known us or me to so closed as to not to consider other points of view?

I see some good and a little bad in 5.3. What concerns me the most is how difficult it is to kill units of 3 or less.

I have expended hundreds of rounds of ammunition, tank fire and anything else I can find. Alas, they seem impervious.

As a general rule I'm very pleased because I think it is more realistic dealing with infantry BUT, being unable to take out small units is frustrating and somewhat unrealistic.

Example: I had a German Pzschrk unit hidden in some trees. I surrounded it with two Shermans and an engineer squad. I fired at it a total of 14 times, including HE, MG (repeatedly) Flamethrower, satchel charge and small arms fire.

He was not even suppressed, I don't think because he kept firing back (and killed a Sherman in the process).

That is extreme.

But that is part of the ongoing perfecting process. Don't give up. Keep us abreast of what you find in the game. That to a large degree is why we have made the progress that we have.

Wild Bill

Wild Bill I was not trying to be overly harsh in my response, but I am tired of the 'I'm leaving but hear me whine' crowd. I would hope that if people felt that strongly about flaws they would document them and allow Matrix the chance to tweak it just a little finer. Constructive criticism is great, but a hit and run complaint is whining.

I think we are finally within 1 or 2 updates of as perfect a SPWAW as we are likely to get. I challenge anyone to compare this version to 1.0 or 2.3 and say it is inferior. The level of dedication shown by all of you guys is an inspiration to all of us on the Tiger Team.(we'll try to do you proud)

If you'll recall at the first Matrix Staff chat you guys were stating how the Spwaw engine will soon be eclipsed by Combat Leader. I told you that Matrix has gotten the Pinto(the old SP engine)thinking it is a Porsche(SPWAW). I meant that because never in my mind did I expect the VAST improvements on every prior version of my favorite game.(I thought it would just be a face lift)

I do not mean to chase anyone away, but if one's mind is made up then I will gladly see them off and hope you guys at Matrix keep up the good work. We gamers need to pick up a lot of the burden of SPWAW so Paul and the rest can finish CL/CA. This community is the most responsive and polite one I have found on the web and I am proud to be a small part.

you'll always be my Scenario Hero,
sven

[sven]

Originally posted by MalleusDei:
I tried 5.2 and 5.3 and didn't like either of them, so I am back playing 5.01.

Based on field experience, I can tell you that such things as snipers, AT teams, and vehicle crewmen just aren't that hard to kill. Been there, done that, have the T-shirt. And my stepfather says it wasn't significantly different in WWII either.

So, I think that I have reached the end of the line with SPWAW. Thanks for making a great game - 5.01, that is.

Are you sure? Seems that plenty of squads have had trouble finding snipers in war. I have 'been there and done that and got the t-shirt' myself and a well camoflouged TOW team can be pretty hard to find.

I think we are forgetting the key that a two man unit is harder to spot in a hex than an 18 man one. You can't kill what you can't see with a rifle. I think 5.3 is in the right direction and will soon lead to a perfect Infantry model.

regards,
sven

[troopie]

I don't think infantry was too weak in v. 5.01. Just try digging Japanese out of their caves. You have to go in with the flamethrowers and then the kukris to make it happen. And snipers are almost completely useless in the later versions. They had a low ROF for a reason. A sniper takes his time, picks his target and fires 1 shot. With the ROF of 2 and the tougher infantry, snipers aren't worth the trouble.

And it's not a realism issue, it's a playability issue. If the AI did what real units do, move when they are surrounded, or when encirclement is threatened, then the new infantry toughness is warranted perhaps. But they do not, so it is not.

And I have been there. When we deployed from the Buffels, R-1s blazing, backed up with the FN Mags, the terrs did a fast fade. They did not stay in place in an area 50 metres by 50 metres, while twenty men with rifles and machine guns shot at them. If they had, they would have died, very, very quickly.

Admittedly a WW2 rifle, except for a StG44, doesn't have the kill capacity of an R-1. But the principle is the same.

But I am not leaving. Tell the Matrix crew I have enlisted for the duration.

Back to NA. I'm going to try the Mega Campaign again.

troopie

[Paul Vebber]

Those who stick it out, will not be disappointed, no matter which version they enjoy...

The comments, both pro and con are very helpful. Please continue sharing them, but as one who has "been there done that" with the Sea Service, between 99 people with the T-shirt, there will about 110 takes on what it was exactly it took to get it Lets share our opinions, but ake sure we are respectful of others...

In teh immortal words of David Leterman...this is an exhibition, NOT a competition...PLEASE, no wagering

[Mark Ezra]

To TheZel: Leaving? Sorry to hear it. We wargamers need one another. We are such a small group compared to the twitch crowd. But if you must go than tell me: where to? What company do you know that are making 'em like you want? I'm serious...think of the games out there now and put me straight. I can think of only two companies that are catering to our taste ...Matrix and BTS. How many can you name? My thinking is to make your voice heard. Your thoughts are valid and WILL be considered but may not win the day. Personally I like 5.3 I don't waste my time on stragglers that's what I have follow up forces for. Maybe it becomes a matter of play style rather than playability. Something to think about. But if you must go than I leave you with my Uncles word to my Dad when he set of to California in the 1930'3...."write if you get work!"

[krull]

I was a sniper for 42 years in the USMC. its damn hard to kill snipers because you have to find them first. Usualy troops will psray a area in hopes of flushing them out. OR send ina sweep team.
5.3 isnt that unrealistic. I Know from personal experince from korea to Nam and places inbetween and after. That vehicle crews arent as meek as people seem to think. My best friend was tanker from korea to Nam. he didnt carry no pistol he had a Nice Sub in there just in case.
Sounds to me like this post is over some one who wants the toys aka tanks with no competition.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I havent played Steel Panthers any version to death (fortunately my wife keeps me busy with other things).

But I am pro keep messing with it. Steel Panthers evolves like a lot of things evolve.

Sometimes fixing something that aint broke is a bad thing. But I dont see that being the case here.
Been watching the posts.
As far as I can see all the versions occur as a result of input (not just mindless pointless puttering).
And most of the input I have seen (which is almost certainly the tip of the ole iceberg) is about bugs etc.
I dont mind seeing new versions with bug fixes myself.
As for qualitative improvements, I dont have the time to get the analytical.

Last thing I had a beef over was insane early war equipment imbalances. As far as I know that was addressed. So I dont have any complaints as yet.

Realism, I can always stomache more realism. Heck its not like I am doing the work, the computer does all that. Ask anyone that has mastered and played ASL for years. They will "explain" to you how difficult "realism" can be in a game.

[troopie]

Regarding what crews should carry. My father was an AC crewman in WW2 (1st Marmons then Daimlers). He was supposed to carry a Webley .455. He did, and also kept a Sten handy in case he needed it. That's why I like the 'Various small arms' carried by crews. Some have pistols, some have smgs, some don't have anything at all.

I'm just saying crews shouldn't be supermen.

troopie