US Bazookas

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:56 am

Ammo, I definetely will not engage in a MG-discussion with you once again. As for almost all things you mentioned, Paul and various other folks gave you explainations, you just refuse to accept (e.g. FC values are NOT ONLY TECHNICAL RATINGS, especially on INFANTRY SQUADS). But as you didn't want to hear it the first ten times this was said, I think you don't want to hear it now or in the future...I'm just too tired to correct the rest of your so called "fantasy", but if you have time to spent, look up some older threads, I'm sure they were put in the right place before...

The october '43 for the Schreck-shield is from Panzerfaust site...

And now please, your source for an M6A3 bazooka round and it's penetration, if you would be so kind...

Tomanbeg · Post by **Tomanbeg** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 9:58 am

Originally posted by Panzer Leo:
Ammo, I definetely will not engage in a MG-discussion with you once again. As for almost all things you mentioned, Paul and various other folks gave you explainations, you just refuse to accept (e.g. FC values are NOT ONLY TECHNICAL RATINGS, especially on INFANTRY SQUADS). But as you didn't want to hear it the first ten times this was said, I think you don't want to hear it now or in the future...I'm just too tired to correct the rest of your so called "fantasy", but if you have time to spent, look up some older threads, I'm sure they were put in the right place before...

The october '43 for the Schreck-shield is from Panzerfaust site...

And now please, your source for an M6A3 bazooka round and it's penetration, if you would be so kind...

I agree with Sarge. And it doesn't matter how many times you repeat yourself, when you are wrong. 10, 100 or 1000 reps won't change that.
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust13.htm
another;
http://www.britannica.com/normandy/articles/bazooka.html;
The web is armpit deep(7208 with a simple search) in sites, if you don't like these find your own.
And for the 'tank terror'
http://www.britannica.com/normandy/articles/Panzerschreck.html
And if you have an extra 20 dollars (plus shipping and handling) go here:
http://www.military-info.com/BOOK/N41_aasr/Bk_aasr.htm
T.

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 pm

To go back to the bazooka thing, I don't mind the penetration values etc, but the accuracy of it! It is a real killer, and I find it usable on very long ranges.. Lars is right defining it as a Überweapon. Was there any sort of super sight on the device making it hit this often on ranges of 300-400 meters? Sometimes I get as high percentage values firing bazookas than rifles!

If it really was such a good weapon as it is in game terms, Americans would have had no problems with German tanks in WWII. Two "brave" men sneaking to a distance of 300-400 meters of a tank shouldn't be too difficult, and then the tank is history, no matter if it happens to be one of the heavies.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:40 pm

Hi, am I missing something? M1 pen 85 range 7(350meters)42-44
M9 pen 115 range 6.(300meters)Jan 44-49 Who is getting kills at range 8? Tigers show up in Dec 42, M1 equipped units do not kill Tigers (min armour on Tiger 88 max pen M1 85) Even my M9 boys bounce off alot unless they are sitting next door. Although I admit they seem to be effective against infantry out to 3-4 hexes using the HE round. I usally require more then one unit to kill a Tiger (the AI is nice enough to drive up next to M9 equipped units-humans for some strange reason prefer to sit out around 9 hexes and spray mg's at me.....cowards) I gather Germans would prefer it if all US/Allied units were equipped only with K-bars (dull ones) How many units armed only with sticks and rocks can I buy with 3k? (for those 1943 meeting engagements)

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:54 pm

Originally posted by john g:

As I recall it was banned by some conference on warfare as being inhumane to use against troops, but it joined other weapons like .50 cal mgs that were inhumane but used effectively.
thanks, John.

You recall wrong. There is no such thing, save for poison gas, as an illegal weapon.

Some types of ammo are illegal, but the actual treaties are vague - ammunition designed to inflict unnecessary suffering is prohibited. So far, this has been taken to include acid tipped bullets, hollowpoints and dum-dums, but not flame, not WP, and not shotguns.

Other than the above items, NO weapon or ammunition type is named as prohibited. The .50 cal MG is NOT an illegal weapon. This is a military urban myth.

I have links if you would like them, to the appropriate conventions.

V-man

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:24 pm

Originally posted by Tomanbeg:

I agree with Sarge. And it doesn't matter how many times you repeat yourself, when you are wrong. 10, 100 or 1000 reps won't change that.
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust13.htm
another;
http://www.britannica.com/normandy/articles/bazooka.html;
The web is armpit deep(7208 with a simple search) in sites, if you don't like these find your own.
And for the 'tank terror'
http://www.britannica.com/normandy/articles/Panzerschreck.html
And if you have an extra 20 dollars (plus shipping and handling) go here:
http://www.military-info.com/BOOK/N41_aasr/Bk_aasr.htm
T.

So what is wrong, that I was saying about the Bazooka or Panzerschreck ?

Your links don't work at the moment (except the one for the Panzerschreck)...but I think I've been on the sites before...

Please be more specific what you mean, as I don't believe you want to say, that all points Ammo made are right...(well I at least hope it for your own sake...)

I have yet to find a good source for the M6A3 round (if it's your link above, that is down at the moment, o.k., I'll try later again)...
I did a lot of research on the net about the Bazooka and Panzerschreck. Just throwing in some websites without making a point is kind of useless...

So I'm still waiting for someone to find the M6A3 reference...

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:39 pm

Maybe we could keep this close to topic. What I am personally most interested in hearing about is the relative accuracy of bazooka vs panzerschreck and what values these should be given in the game. They now both (M1 and Schreck) have 2(8), down from 3(12) in v6. M9 Bazooka has 3(12) down from 4(16). Additionally, M9 and Screck teams have FC=1, while M1 has FC=0.
So what should it be? M1=2, M9=3 and Schreck=4? Anyone?

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:41 pm

Originally posted by Fredde:
To go back to the bazooka thing, I don't mind the penetration values etc, but the accuracy of it! It is a real killer, and I find it usable on very long ranges.. Lars is right defining it as a Überweapon. Was there any sort of super sight on the device making it hit this often on ranges of 300-400 meters? Sometimes I get as high percentage values firing bazookas than rifles!

If it really was such a good weapon as it is in game terms, Americans would have had no problems with German tanks in WWII. Two "brave" men sneaking to a distance of 300-400 meters of a tank shouldn't be too difficult, and then the tank is history, no matter if it happens to be one of the heavies.

Sorry, saw this one too late...

Yes, I think you're right. I believe, that both (Bazooka and PzSchreck) are too accurate. None of these weapons was able to really be a threat to moving tanks over 150m, most sources give the Bazooka only 120m.
The problem to model it in the game is, that you want to keep, especially for the Bazooka, the use against bunkers or houses at longer ranges up to 500m. So reducing the range is not an option, but reducing the accuracy of both weapons is something that works good for me. You will still be able to hit large, immobile targets at longer distances (you can even score a hit on a tank sitting at 300m), but as soon as something is moving, you'll stuck with 2-3 hexes (ACC 0).
I use it in my OOBs for a long time now and it comes out very realistic...

So my suggestion:
Bazookas (M1/9), Panzerschreck, PIAT all with ACC 0, rest of the values as is, except M9 pen reduced to 105mm, unless someone shows up with a good source...

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Panzer Leo ]</p>

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 5:46 pm

Hmmm... Accuracy 0 can't be right. There are definitely things that are less accurate, like hand and rifle grenades.

richmonder · Post by **richmonder** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:10 pm

I'm glad we are focusing on suggested accuracies now. It's a good topic.

Remembering that ACC is simply the range at which a weapon has a 50% chance of hitting it's target, what do people suggest as the the M1A1, M9, Schreck, and (perhaps) PzFaust variants? Let's go for technical accuracies.

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:12 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:

The biggest inaccuracy in the OOB's to date on these weapons is the fact that the German versions are available in the game about a year early by type , historically .. check out the availabilty dates for German stuff on the Panzerfaust Page and in the OOB's to see what I mean .. like wise the US Airborne has, to date, been stuck with the older less effective M6a1 ammo for the bazookas ( represented by the M1 bazooka ) instead of having access to the M6a3 ammo after jan '44 ( represented by the M9 bazooka) .

This has all been Corrected in the 7.1 OOBS.
The airborne now gets the M9 when it should, and you wont be seeing many PZfaust 100s unless you run into the SS or VG late in war.
I think Regular german Inf gets stuck with the 30, FJ upgrades to the 60 later years.

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Alby ]</p>

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:03 pm

Originally posted by Penetrator:
Hmmm... Accuracy 0 can't be right. There are definitely things that are less accurate, like hand and rifle grenades.

Just change it in your OOBs and test it...it works great, believe me...

The actual to hit chance has some more things going into it than just the accuracy and the values that come out are pretty realistic.

Do not compare it to other weapons, just try to model it till it portays the reality...

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:38 pm

Originally posted by Panzer Leo:

Do not compare it to other weapons, just try to model it till it portays the reality...

Nonononono... I can't accept that approach. A very important aspect of the game is comparative portrayal of various weapons. It is better to have two (opposing) weapons equally wrong than to have one 100% correct and the other way off the mark.

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:02 pm

Originally posted by Penetrator:

Nonononono... I can't accept that approach. A very important aspect of the game is comparative portrayal of various weapons. It is better to have two (opposing) weapons equally wrong than to have one 100% correct and the other way off the mark.

Haeh <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

The whole OOB works this way...
And I don't want to change one weapon, but all Inf-AT of longer range capability...
Didn't I send you a set of my OOBs a few weeks ago ? I think the Panzerschreck and maybe the Bazooka is already changed in there...just test it...

So don't be scared, nobody is doing nothing wrong <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:22 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Please get your basic facts straight before you try and teach your Grandmother to suck eggs

I visited all those links you posted. Thank you for the data. I didn't find any balistic curve charts, which are usefull in determining inherent accuracy, which was the initial issue, but the Cruffler Consolidated Match Results posted at http://www.cruffler.com/matchdb.html did show that in only two result instances did the M1 Garand have a smaller grouping than that of even the 8mm Mauser you so succinctly pointed out was the standard WWII German weapon. All the other information was pretty much as I expected concerning the muzzle velocities at various distances from the bbl.

I could, with effort go back to my notes and manuals to find the information (difficult since they could be in any of three locations and untold number of boxes) on most common calibers in current use. Yes, I picked the wrong bullet size. Since my memory is not perfect and I have not worked as a gunsmith, nor sold guns to anyone in more than 20 years, errors happen.

So before you deride someone for trying to teach his Grandmother to suck eggs, you should find out if he is an old egg-sucker himself. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

This, of course, does not address the issue of how the weapons work in SPWaW. The bazooka issue is of interest to me, and I am not familier with military ordinance. (They wouldn't let me sell that to the tribes.) Since three shots in the game effectively took out three vehicles and the fourth immobilized a Tiger, it is of a lot of interest. I was a bit stunned by the bazook's 98% accuracy on the first shot at 200 yds, when my own Panzerfaust at one-hex range missed at 50%. I don't have a problen with the Pen numbers; all the AT weapons seem to do what the were designed to do against targets with the same generation introduction dates. i just didn't think wire-guides were developed until recently... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

There is a disparity there, as in other places and weapons. I'll live with it (or my units will die with it) and be greatful for the fact that my Tigers will crush all that crosses their path. Muawhahaha. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Challenge ]</p>

Richard Harris · Post by **Richard Harris** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:55 am

Be careful about teaching Grandma to suck '7mm' (Spanish?!) Mauser eggs indeed, lest ye be teaching her to suck '66mm' bazooka rounds as well Ammo.
66mm? I assume that was a typo and you meant 60mm, i.e. 2.36"... Must be Murphey's LAW striking eh? <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">