US Bazookas

Alexei · Post by **Alexei** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 8:33 pm

Hi,

I am wondering about the quality of US bazookas: both M1 and M9 appear to be far superior to the German counterparts, Panzerfaust & Panzershreck. Were they really that better (really lethal beyond 5 hexes)? Why then? Where could I find some good info about that topic?

Thank you,

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:10 pm

You cannot directly compare Panzerfausts to Bazookas, as they use a totally different system, but the Panzerschreck was developed by the Germans after they captured a Bazooka in Africa. I asked myself the same question a while ago and this is something I came across. These are comments from members of the 2. armored division in march '45:

Bazooka. Well, we had the first one. And that is about all that can be said for it. The German bazooka makes ours look sick, not only in effect but in accuracy.

-Lt Coulter Montgomery

" Bazookas - In training tests using the regular U.S. bazookas and the German "81-mm" bazooka the following results were obtained: Firing at a Mark V tank from ranges of eighty to two hundred yards both side and front armor were penetrated each time the tank was hit. Approximately twelve rounds were fired. In each case where the target was missed, the projectile detonated upon hitting the ground. Firing at the same target at a range of eighty yards with the U.S. bazooka, out of ten hits on the side armor, only three penetrations were obtained. At two hundred yards no penetrations were scored. In cases where the target was missed, the projectile generally did not detonate upon hitting the ground. Up to ranges of two hundred yards, the German weapons was more accurate, possessing a flatter trajectory than ours. Tests indicate the German bazooka is far superior to ours. "

-Lt. Col. L. W. Correll, Commanding 17th Armored Engineer Battalion

Bazooka: The German bazooka is definitely superior, with greater penetrating effect and concussion. It is more accurate and has a greater effective range. The Panzerfaust is an effective and simple weapon to operate. It is highly effective against armor and also against personnel. We have equipped our infantry and reconnaissance units with captured German bazookas and they have great confidence in them. Since we habitually carry them on vehicles, their greater weight than the U.S. type is not a factor.

- Brigadier General Isaac D. White, Commanding General, Second Armored Division

It seems, that the Panzerschreck was about the only captured weapon, that was used in a significant number by U.S. troops.

You can find these extracts on

Articles

Frank W. · Post by **Frank W.** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:20 pm

Originally posted by Panzer Leo:
You cannot ... etc...]

question mark from me

in the game this seems not
to be the case.... bazookes m9
on ranges 2-5 hexes are almost
deadly. if the firing unit is
unsuppressed and have good exp.

i´m still with 6.1
don´t know if newer
version modell the zook
better

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:21 pm

Panzerfausts, since they were (are) such easy weapons to employ were very popular with US troops. In fact, during the Ardennes offensive, some airborne troops near Bastogne were issued, yes issued, Panzerfauste as stop-gap anti-tank weapons.
I was interested in the game sims of the Bazooka v Panzerschreck as well, especially as my ancedotal data matched what you found out. I'm interested to see what design considerations led to the current effectiveness in the game.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:33 pm

Originally posted by Panzer Leo:
[QB]" Bazookas - In training tests using the regular U.S. bazookas and the German "81-mm" bazooka the following results were obtained: Firing at a Mark V tank from ranges of eighty to two hundred yards both side and front armor were penetrated each time the tank was hit. Approximately twelve rounds were fired.
[QB]

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Seems like the Germans had the ultimate Panther-killer themselves! That must be an unsurpassed cost/effectiveness ratio.. Kills within 200 yards - that's close considering you NEVER have more than three hexes visibility playing SP:WAW <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:05 pm

Originally posted by Frank W.:

question mark from me

in the game this seems not
to be the case.... bazookes m9
on ranges 2-5 hexes are almost
deadly. if the firing unit is
unsuppressed and have good exp.

i´m still with 6.1
don´t know if newer
version modell the zook
better

Hmm,...so what's your question ?

Do I think the Bazookas are too lethal in the game ?

Yes <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

I would like to have the Panzerschreck to be the better weapon and a cpt PzSchreck in the US OOB from Nov '44 on (maybe a Panzerfaust, too).
Sounds to be fun to have a US inf-AT firing it's Panzschreck at your Panther in the Ardennes...

Frank W. · Post by **Frank W.** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:05 pm

perhaps we should ask the remaining crew men of some josef stalin tanks sitting in my prisoner of war camp about the m9 bazooka.....

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:57 pm

Originally posted by Frank W.:
perhaps we should ask the remaining crew men of some josef stalin tanks sitting in my prisoner of war camp about the m9 bazooka.....

Good idea, and than we should ask the North Koreans, what happened to the US M9 bazookas, that they couldn't deal with the T-34 anymore...maybe they know <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 12:12 am

Are there some circular arguments going around?

Lars · Post by **Lars** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 9:56 pm

Does anyone have a good answer?
I'm a little puzzled why the "überweapon" bazooka never have had any interest in the OOB discussions.
Does people love it so much that they don't want it changed or does really everybody think its characteristics are realisically portrayed?

/Lars

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:42 am

From all I can tell the pen on both the US and German Rocket launchers and Panzerfausts are about correct the Germans having much better pen because they have in fact larger warheads ..Although the Allies had a better variety of ammo ..that is, of course, not represented in the game ..like WP rounds for the bazooka .
The biggest inaccuracy in the OOB's to date on these weapons is the fact that the German versions are available in the game about a year early by type , historically .. check out the availabilty dates for German stuff on the Panzerfaust Page and in the OOB's to see what I mean .. like wise the US Airborne has, to date, been stuck with the older less effective M6a1 ammo for the bazookas ( represented by the M1 bazooka ) instead of having access to the M6a3 ammo after jan '44 ( represented by the M9 bazooka) ... the actual M1 bazooka was a single piece tube the M9 a folding tube , both of the same diameter , both firing the same ammo .. only the ammo changed M6a1 early war M6a3 and up late war ...
The US bazooka was much easier and safer to use than the early Panzer shrecks .. the Panzer shrecks requiring protective gear equivalent to gas mask and protective clothing at first with the inherent problem wth accuracy that cames with fring with a mask on .. later Shrecks starting about Dec 1944 had the shields sliminating this disadvantage..
By the way the US had full Brigades formed up named and numbered using the German 88mm At/Flak guns and fully supplied by Ordnance units specially dedicated to inspecting and certifying captured 88mm ammo ...
Futher , of note , the US had, through out the war, the M9 AT rifle grenade. Range about 250 yards that could penetrate almost as well as the M6a1 bazooka round .. these are not reflected in the game ..and they were issued to all infantry squads ( can be fired from either M1 Garands or M1 Carbines) ( hey wheres the M2 full auto carbines ? they could fire them too ) as well as WP rounds (not in the game) and HE frag which is in the game up until the begining of 1943, then it too disapears for some mysterious reason.

Jacc · Post by **Jacc** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 4:22 pm

Panzerschreck was in every asepct a superior bazooka. However, the concussion warhead was most likely designed by a German lumberjack, who chopped trees with it (perhaps just an urban legend). Panzerfaust 30, the first use of such a warhead, was a significant add to the AT capability of German forces. The history of Bazooka M1 - M9 is not clear to me, but the Germans apparently combined their own rocket-propulsed concussion warhead into a launch tube similar to Bazooka. Adding some more advanced targeting systems and better controls, they had it.

Panzerfausts were used for self-defence and light tank hunter units; though Panzerfaust 100 had a superior penetration compared to Bazooka or Panzerschreck, it could be fired only once. However, the panzerfaust was more popular in the German army for the following reasons:
1) Cost, cost and cost. Cheap to produce.
2) Penetration and effectivness.
3) Size and weight; easy for one man to operate and carry.
4) Availability. Due to low cost, the Panzerfaust units could be deployed to troops in large numbers. F.ex. Finnish AT defences at Karelian Isthmus at summer 1944 relied more or less into Panzerfausts and -schrecks, and all of those weapons were delivered by the air or sea from Germany.

In my own battles, I prefer Panzerfausts - for the mentioned reasons.

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 6:53 pm

Question to AmmoSgt:

What are WP-rounds...I can't figure out the German designation for it...

I agree with most of your points, Ammo especially the availability dates, but I think they have been worked on for v7.1
What in my opinion is not correct you#re saying:
The shield on the Panzerschreck was issued in october '43 and with the first mass appearance of this weapon all had this feature, making it as easy to use as the Bazooka.
Also, could you show me a source, that lists the M6A3 Bazooka round as the most used round in late war and having the penetration it has in the game ?
I really tried to find something, that supports the game rating, but couldn't find anything...but I found a lot to show, that it was lower...

john g · Post by **john g** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:24 pm

Originally posted by Panzer Leo:

What are WP-rounds...I can't figure out the German designation for it...

That stands for white phosphorus, the stuff that is on the tip of strike anywhere matches. It spontaneously burns when exposed to air, and will burn down into the skin of anyone hit by it. It also puts out a pretty good cloud of smoke.

As I recall it was banned by some conference on warfare as being inhumane to use against troops, but it joined other weapons like .50 cal mgs that were inhumane but used effectively.
thanks, John.

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:34 pm

Could anyone answer why, if the M1 and M9 use the same round, the penetration for the M9 is higher?

voyrep · Post by **voyrep** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:49 pm

They don´t use the same round in game terms!

Like Ammo sgt said:

.. like wise the US Airborne has, to date, been stuck with the older less effective M6a1 ammo for the bazookas ( represented by the M1 bazooka ) instead of having access to the M6a3 ammo after jan '44 ( represented by the M9 bazooka) ... the actual M1 bazooka was a single piece tube the M9 a folding tube , both of the same diameter , both firing the same ammo .. only the ammo changed M6a1 early war M6a3 and up late war ...

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 9:51 pm

Originally posted by voyrep:
They don´t use the same round in game terms!

Like Ammo sgt said:

Thanks. Needs to read more carefully.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 11:49 pm

Panzer Leo ..as to WP as the guy said above White Phosporus... as to avialability of the M6a3 ammo lets just go with the criteria that is used for the germans .. the day it is available, it is available ( or in the case of AT weapons, I wouldn't mind the year early policy, that would simplify everything and we could just do away with the M1 and only have M9's in the game ) .. unless you want to move King Tigers back from jun '44 when the 5 KT's at Normandy all broke down just trying to get to the battlefield ..and the US didn't see one until late september .. I have been posting about the year early dates for the german antitank gear since 4.0 ..if they fix it this time great .. but check old threads and some of the lame excuses used .. mostly spun around making the german players unhappy and hopeless unless the game distorts history by a year ..but can you bet the US Bazookas were reduced in Pen the first time it came up .. wonder why it works that way ?
Any Percieved superiority of the Bazooka over the shreck in this game is totally perception .. the OOB stats on the weapons have the Shreck with better fire control and equal accuracy to the M1 and equal fire control and slighly less accurate than the M-9 ..thats about right the M6a3 was a second generation weapon and rocket motor ...btw, for the record the Shreck is 88mm not 81 ..and I can't check the dates on the shield issue cuz the Panzerfaust site is down right now ..anybody know anything about that?? .. thats a good reference site ... anyway .. the German AT stuff has much higher pen than the US and about the same accuracy .. so I don't see the problem .. the range is a bit longer on the US stuff but thats to be expected given the US round is 66mm and lighter ..reflecting the lower pen than the 88mm German Round .. and if you check the US velocities are higher .. so that all works as well.. base prices are US M1 18pts German Shreck 23 pts US M9 29pts Germans get 10 rounds US gets 12 .. despite the fact that the German round weights about twice as much and penetrates much more..
Whats well and truely wierd however is that ..the german crews have a chance ..small chance . but a chance for a radio .. in fact all the german infantry have a chance at a man pack radio ... anybody ever see a WW2 German manpack radio ??... US Infantry only has a 10% higher chance for a man pack radio than the German Infantry and assorted Shreck and MG teams ... talk about a fantasy factor .. thats straight out of hollywood ... I am kinda suprised that the German Firecontrol and accuracy factors are not inflated for the AT stuff the way they are for the MG's and other Infantry weapons .. Kar98's at FC 3 and Garands at FC 2 .. now thats fantasy, open sights mounted forward of the breech with a shorter sight radius and you have to work the bolt being inherently more accurate than a peep sight, rear of the reciver, on a semi auto.. and The US Garand is famous for it's accuracy .. you don't see that many German Mausers being send off for 1/8 MOA accuracy work ups ..geeze louise .. and everybody knows an MG42 bouncing all over the countryside on rock and roll has to have a Higher FC (6) than a sniper rifle at FC 5 right? that makes sense, right? lets here some arguements to support that fantasy , that doesn't apply to any other nations MG's , because everybody else's MG's are about a 3 or 2 for firecontrol ... the German infantry stuff is so padded in so many ways it is really laughable ... but hey I don't need the padding and fantasy numbers to win .. I just can't figure out why the folks who play the Germans do .. don't they have any pride ? or will they grab any edge they can squeeze in ...

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:30 am

The 7 mm Mauser used as the standard German infantry weapon had a much flatter trajectory than did the Garand's 30 cal projectile. Most people don't consider the idea that bullet mass and shape means much to accuracy, but it does. In a bench firing done on both calibers, the 7 mil had a consistantly tighter group than the 30 over a variety of ranges; at 250 yards the difference was about 3/8s to half the size.

The loads were consistant in grains of powder and bullet weight for each round. The 30s had a bit hotter load, as they do for standard, factory loads simply due to the casing. The 7 mil had a higher muzzle velocity and a thinner length/diameter profile which I think added to the flat trajectory. Ackley improved versions increased the muzzle velocity and caused a flatter than normal trajectory for the 7 mil round, leading me to think the accuracy has to do with the casing shoulder shape.

Many Mausers had ramp or ladder sights, although they weren't peep sights, as you pointed out. The "inherent" accuracy of the peep site has never actually been proven IMHO since individuals get varied results and it seems dependent on shooting style or some physical effect we don't measure: different people just work better with different sights. Although I will concede that the majority of people think they shoot better with a peep sight, I would suggest that this is only true at ranges less than 100 yds. Beyond that most people these days use scopes, which would be rather expensive as well as impractical for a squad of riflemen in WW II.

I agree with you that many people playing the game, and not just those using German forces, whine about the arrangement of statistics used for setting results from the wide range of weapons used. It is our nature, perhaps, to want to blame our bad luck on something more tangable than the computer's radomizer. I do think, however, that saying this, or that is out of sync with reality is equally valid for everyone's arguements. The folks who put the tables together (and this is a HUGE database of information) did their best to be accurate; it is up to the rest us to complain about it. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

In defense of the German-centric view, I would like to say that when the US first went into combat the equipment they had WAS outclassed by their German counter parts. The average German soldier was better trained, better disciplined and certainly more experienced.

If those playing the US would put aside their "we won the war because we were so great and had the best stuff" attitude, maybe the Sherman-based TD with a 150 mm gun wouldn't be able to withstand a 50mm AT gun better than any other Sherman did, yet in the game they consistantly survive when others do not.

In conclusion, I agree with your assesment that many of the statistics in the game are open for debate. Some are likely to be in error. If for no other reason than the very scope of the information, no one will be happy with all of it, all the time. The best we can do is accept that, as with the reality, things are not always easily measurable.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Challenge ]</p>

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:55 am

Challenge uh hmmm well thats all very well and good but the Germans used a 7,92mm round commonly called the 8mm Mauser so ya blew that part ...
The German 8mm was a heavier Bullet but it mooved at a slower velocity .. so ya kinda blew the flatter trajectory part to ..
Kinda calls into question your basic facts , doesn't it ..
Ok for real info on the Gewrman 8mm please see http://www.cruffler.com/bookreview-January02.html for a short detailed History about the German 8mm see http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-July01.html
For a comparitive study of the US 30-06 please refer to http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-July99.html
For info on how bullet design can effect accuracy please see this http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-January02.html
For a comparison between typical WW2 rifles on accuracy please see http://www.cruffler.com/crufflermatches.html

Please get your basic facts straight before you try and teach your Grandmother to suck eggs