Ground Combat and Supply - TESTED!!!

[mogami]

Hi, The best way to know your supply situation is watch the speed your units recover disruption and fatigue and reapair disbale and replace lost items.  If your units require more then 3 days beteen attacks your supply situation is poor. If you are not repairing disbaled items your supply is poor.  I would not expect to repace lost items unless i was in a friendly base hex with a lot of excess supply (and in range of my HQ)
 
It is completly unreasonable to expect your troops to be able to launch shock attacks 2 days in a row.
 
Players (and actual leaders) always over react to their own loss and over estimate the condition of the enemy.  ("I'm being slaughtered and they are not being hurt") If the enemy is surrounded then they are dying while your troops are just being rendered unfit for a few days.  I've had these type battles last quite a while.   WITP is 1600+ turn long.  (once your battle is won it will seem to have been faster then it seems now)
 
The best way to tell exactly what effect the combat is having is record the socre for LCU detroyed before a battle and then compare after the battle.  But Japanese is awared much fewer points for killing chinese compared to what Allied player gets when Japanese are killed by Chinese.  (If Japanese score goes up by 10 and Allied score goes up by 5 then Japanese have actually obtained a 5-1 or better kill ratio. )

[treespider]

To clarify my position...we are consistently seeing a situation where the Attackers Assault values are a fraction of their stated value. My concern is not the end result of the combat, just that the attacker may not be getting his combat supply until after the combat is fought resulting in his Assault Value being less than anticipated...

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

if i see it right Castor Andrew just wrote you that you should be happy [;)]

No, I was just pointing out that there are a number of supply related problems to consider, and if just one of them is fixed while others are not, the game may end up being even less realistic than if none were fixed. And I don't want a less realistic game.

Andrew

[mogami]

Hi, The starting AV is if every item involved took part without any other modifiers being applied.
The final Japanese AV is 1/4 of total possible while Chinese AV is less then 1/6 of possible. Japan is clearly winning the battle of modifiers.  If the enemy does not have a place to retreat to they stay put but they die while the attacker loss is only disabled. quit posting the combat text reports unless you also post the before and after score for detroyed ground points.  (bet the Japanese are outscoring the chinese dispite the report showing a 2-1 ratio in favor of Chinese and we all know the point ratio is 3-1 (For every destroyed enemy squad Chinese score 3 times as many points as Japanese) 

To stay even Japan must kill 3x Chinese while rest of Allied nations must kill 2x Japanese to stay even

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The starting AV is if every item involved took part without any other modifiers being applied.

I'll make the assumption then that this value is based on having all leadership values at 100, fatigue at 0, disruption at 0, supply 5x? required, in clear terrain, on a bright sunny 65 degree F day.

The final Japanese AV is 1/4 of total possible while Chinese AV is less then 1/6 of possible. Japan is clearly winning the battle of modifiers.

My concern is that the japanese are not receiving their combat supply until after the combat. If the supply were received (and maybe it is but it appears that it isn't from some of the examples posted in other threads) perhaps then their assault value would be 1/3 instead of 1/4.

If the enemy does not have a place to retreat to they stay put but they die while the attacker loss is only disabled. quit posting the combat text reports unless you also post the before and after score for detroyed ground points.  (bet the Japanese are outscoring the chinese dispite the report showing a 2-1 ratio in favor of Chinese and we all know the point ratio is 3-1 (For every destroyed enemy squad Chinese score 3 times as many points as Japanese) 

To stay even Japan must kill 3x Chinese while rest of Allied nations must kill 2x Japanese to stay even

The rest is not my concern...I'm concerned as to why the Japanese (and this could apply to the Allied player as well)adjusted AV is 1/4 and not 1/3 or 1/2 or full.... and is that the result of supplies arriving after the combat is fought.

[mogami]

Hi, If the units draw combat supply after combat they have it before the next combat.  They then draw supply to replace what they consumed. However I doubt their exists enough surplus to maintain the Japanese at 2x required and that is what they need to get the 2x combat bonus. (without it they can never be more then 50 percent starting av)
Versus Tom Hunter I had 500,000+ troops in Manila and was unloading 100,000 supply at Naga (connects to Manila via rail) I never had 100 percent Av let alone 50 percent and at several points supply in naga exceeded 200,000 with SAA HQ in Manila hex to pull it up to combat. Manila is also an urban hex. It required over 4 months to reduce.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, If the units draw combat supply after combat they have it before the next combat. 

In many instances there is no next combat as the first combat has so disrupted/ fatigued the attacker that he cannot make use of the extra supply on the second day. And this is my problem.

They then draw supply to replace what they consumed. However I doubt their exists enough surplus to maintain the Japanese at 2x required and that is what they need to get the 2x combat bonus. (without it they can never be more then 50 percent starting av)

Agreed.

[mogami]

Hi, It does not matter if units attack the following day. They draw combat supply based on what they consumed in the attack.
However if combat is in friendly hex the base will not issue combat supply to any unit if base supply below required. (so I doubt Chiese in surround city are actually getting combat supply) If combat is in other hex the supply to be drawn must come via the supply path from a base that has excess supply. (500,000 troops would need to pull at least 20k supply after each combat just to have normal combat supply)  Using Chungking and Changsha as examples 500,000 troops at Chungking drawing from Changsha would require around 30,000 surplus supply after every combat. (Only 24,000 supply out of the 30,000 would actually arrive chungking) This supply is the combat supply. The 500,000 troops would also still need to draw their basic required supply. Any unit without basic required supply will not draw combat supply before it has 100 percent required basic supply. (if you are 1 point shy of basic then unit will not attack)
Units will also refrain from attacking for other reasons but they still contribute to that first AV check. (and troop totals) (disabled parts add to AV and totals but do not take part in combat)

[Andy Mac]

So if I am understanding this correctly whats happening.

Japanese start at 1x AV.

Because they are fighting with a massive army in the hinterland of China without millions of surplus supplies forward dumped (which is virtually impossible to achieve because no matter how much supply you forward dump its just not physiscally possible to stockpile it forward over that road network to supply 750k men they automaticlaly go to 0.5x AV

Then because even basic supply is sketchy at that range and over that supply net morale, fatigue and disruption never fully dissapear plus no all units are 99 xp they drop by about another .25 - .5.

Offset these downward factors is command HQ, Corps HQ etc.

The Chinese start at 1x but because of supply status got to 0.5 or even .25 (if out of basic supply)

but offsetting that is Urban Bonus (4 Impregnable Forts) and say lvl 3 normal forts (assuming 1x multiple of every 3 lvls of fort is 2 1/3 x multiple to defenders AV)

Add in command HQ and Crops HQ bonus etc etc

Basically coming out at 0.7 - .8 AV before disruption morale xp preparation etc etc

So the answer is to increase disruption by air bombardment, kill of remaining support squads or attack every week and hope your combat engineers get lucky and destroy a level of forts.

i.e. a long drawn out battle.

Have I understood correctly ?

[mogami]

Hi, I think you said it better then I did. (I think I confuse many issues because of my poor abilty to explain the simple)
However I bet the Chinese are dying. The Japanese are only being disabled. There will come a point when the odds make a major shift.  (whenever a unit contains more disabled parts then ready the loss will be killed but while ready out numbers disabled the loss is disabled. (Get a unit below 50/(100) and your killing it during combat)

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

So if I am understanding this correctly whats happening.

Japanese start at 1x AV.

Because they are fighting with a massive army in the hinterland of China without millions of surplus supplies forward dumped (which is virtually impossible to achieve because no matter how much supply you forward dump its just not physiscally possible to stockpile it forward over that road network to supply 750k men they automaticlaly go to 0.5x AV

Then because even basic supply is sketchy at that range and over that supply net morale, fatigue and disruption never fully dissapear plus no all units are 99 xp they drop by about another .25 - .5.

This is not exactly my concern. Yes I agree that supplying a large army like this is historically not likely and it is what we are seeing...however is the same thing happening with much smaller forces as well and not over great distance....

Essentially it is a question of whether units anywhere are receiving the combat supply before or after their first attack.



The rest of what is below is fine with me....I'm concerned with the mechanism with which supply is being handled.

Offset these downward factors is command HQ, Corps HQ etc.

The Chinese start at 1x but because of supply status got to 0.5 or even .25 (if out of basic supply)

but offsetting that is Urban Bonus (4 Impregnable Forts) and say lvl 3 normal forts (assuming 1x multiple of every 3 lvls of fort is 2 1/3 x multiple to defenders AV)

Add in command HQ and Crops HQ bonus etc etc

Basically coming out at 0.7 - .8 AV before disruption morale xp preparation etc etc

So the answer is to increase disruption by air bombardment, kill of remaining support squads or attack every week and hope your combat engineers get lucky and destroy a level of forts.

i.e. a long drawn out battle.

Have I understood correctly ?

[Sneer]

from what I understood in any case i have max 50% av available
as far as chinase at chungking - their number actually increases - even if they don't have enough supply
as for getting supply next day - i'm regaining disruption 3-4 days and strenght from disabled elements within 2 weeks ( up to 3% per day) so little use for me

New Japanase army motto
"attack with bayonets and next days HQ will send bullets"

if they are able to send it next day why they are unable to send it day before ????????????/
world wonders

[Andy Mac]

yes Chinese will improve and increase as those low xp units gain xp from the city fighting especially if they are respawn units in the 30's for xp when they appear.
 
But it should take to many attacks for the xp to be offset by destroyed/morale losses

[Sneer]

Andy read carefully
their NUMBER not AV increases

[Andy Mac]

IMO airpower and bombardment attacks are the key keep disruption up kill squads and over time they get wekaer but it isnt a quick fix it will take months to take that city

[Andy Mac]

OK there number will increase if they have respawn units appearing is the unit count going up ?
 

[Andy Mac]

Actually if Raver is being clever and recombining split corps as respawn units appear you would probably never know if his unit count increases

[treespider]

Chinese strength is not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to determine at what point combat units are receiving combat supply and what effect it is having on their assault value.

As near as i can tell units are not receiving their supply "bump"' until after an attack has been launched and the unit has already become disrupted and fatigued.

[Sneer]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK there number will increase if they have respawn units appearing is the unit count going up ?

2 units and 45k troops appeared between assaults

[Sneer]

i will try to convince my opponent to run assault turn savegame on new installed old 1.6
die rolls are within save so only engine resolving attack will be diffrent
result can be interesting if only Ravredave finds enough time - he is rather busy

as for answer Treespider
Mogami gave it to you already
Japan in any circumstances attack with half strenght
and it can be only worse