Ground Combat and Supply - TESTED!!!

[treespider]

There have been a number of threads on Ground Combat and it seems that supply has some bearing on the outcome according to posts by Mogami. In researching this aspect I came across the following in the Rules manual....

In checking the game manual I found in the sequence of play on page 26…

Step 3 Night Resolution Phase:
(k) Supply Needs Calculation and Overland Supply Movement

Step 4 Day Resolution Phase:
(h) Ground Combat
(i) Ground Movement

(l) Supply Needs Calculation and Overland Supply Movement
(m) Supply Operations – supplying of ground units

From this it seems that supply is pushed after Ground Combat.

Also on page 185 “ Supply needs are an estimate of future needs based on recent supply usage.”

My question for in particular Sneer and Pauk...prior to launching your attacks did ALL of the units launch a bombardment attack to elevate their supply need?

If so then extra supply should be pushed to the unit before you launched either your deliberate or shock attack the folowing day. If the preparatory bombardment is not launched then the unit will only receive enough supply with which to subsist based on its recent activity.

[Sneer]

problem is that bombardment do not push req high enough - i noticed sth like 10-15% max and they need 40-50% /by this amounts supply was lowered next day

if this is right routine my troops will get supply on day two of offensive / not before/
very strange situation - especially with our all-or-nothing combat system
and what the hell is the need for supplies if troops are decimated on day 1 and truly they don't need supplies for any offensive for next 2 weeks!!!!!

this is extremaly wrong !!!!


1st day attack with bayonets to force HQs to send bullets ??????

[dtravel]

Sorry to go off-topic here, but WTF does "sth" mean?  I keep seeing you use "sth" in your posts Sneer and it makes understanding what you are trying to say very difficult.

[Sneer]

something ???
ok i will post cleare language

it is not my native language [8D]

[dtravel]

Sorry, wasn't meaning to beat you up over it, just trying to understand what you were saying.  We now return to Treespider's rant.  [;)]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Sorry, wasn't meaning to beat you up over it, just trying to understand what you were saying.  We now return to Treespider's rant.  [;)]

Not a rant ... lets call it an inquiry.

[pauk]

hi tree, can not really help here.

All i know that i wasn't bombarded turn prior attack (wanted to suprise that capitalist scum:) and didn't check supply required detailed - all i know that all my units had enough supply. Sorry about that but there is lots of things to be keep in mind....

I can leave with my result and think i got explanation why my adjusted AV was so low - bad dice roll and enemy forts (in open hex). however, this example raised another question (to which i can not help now) about supply distribution and i really appreciate what are you doing...

I will keep an eye on that and will post my impressions ASA new fight occurs...meanwhile i would really like that someone from officials take a look here...

[Sneer]

sorry but i can't leave my results
enemy have no single gun or tank
only city/forts  modifier keeps him from immmiediate surrender after 6 months siege i need to know why my troops get 70% negative modifier
as i know this forum soon many people will write that i was modified due to enemy bombardment fire before attack

no
it needs to be checked
where is Matrix ???

[dtravel]

Its the 4th of July holiday weekend here in the US, so many of them are probably off trying to track their families down to spend time with them. 

[castor troy]

Great! I´ve got the same shit happen in a game against Zeta16:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 45,35

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 445791 troops, 5511 guns, 1426 vehicles, Assault Value = 9265

Defending force 139582 troops, 356 guns, 50 vehicles, Assault Value = 4365

Japanese max assault: 9176 - adjusted assault: 2093

Allied max defense: 3774 - adjusted defense: 657

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
12683 casualties reported
Guns lost 439
Vehicles lost 39

Allied ground losses:
6639 casualties reported
Guns lost 33
Vehicles lost 5


Adjusted assault isn´t even 25% of the starting value. I´m two hexes NW of Changsha where 35000 supplies are. 4 Hexes E of Kweiyang where 45000 supplies are. Road and rail is open. The only reason why it isn´t a complete disaster is because the Chinese are cut off and don´t have a supply line and are bombed for weeks now. Though when I look at my divisions most of them are 10% disabled. In the bases nearby there are the Command HQs and several other HQs but there won´t be more supply stored, all the supply stays at the coast where I unload it. The longer I think about it, the more I´m sure too that the patch broke the supply routine (which was crap before too).

Has anybody 1.6 still running (best version so far) and has got similar results? I know you can´t see the assault values but the end results.

[Andrew Brown]

What I wish was in the game were more supply path restrictions. I find it very hard to believe that any single road, or even railway, in 1940s China, could carry the supply needs of 400,000-600,000 troops.

Andrew

[Sneer]

if i see it right Castor Andrew just wrote you that you should be happy [;)]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

What I wish was in the game were more supply path restrictions. I find it very hard to believe that any single road, or even railway, in 1940s China, could carry the supply needs of 400,000-600,000 troops.

Andrew

I agree, but that is related but separate issue. What is of concern is how the game pushes supplies to units that are outside of their own bases for use in combat. On the surface it appears to be "broken"...or perhaps it isn't.

What appears to have happened in continental combat, as opposed to island based combat, is that since bases are now only pushed their required supply it will become very difficult to accumulate extra supplies at a particular base to support offensive operations away from the base.

[mogami]

Hi, I see you guys keep posting that those results are some kind of problem. Just what exactly do you expect/want (Your results would make me happy if I got them)
You know your reported loss is not actual loss so why cry about it. b Do you really expect to wipe out 140,000 enemy troops in 24 hours?  (It should take weeks)
The Japanese do not have enough armour in their entire inventory to pursue 140,000 enemy troops through a 60 mile hex and destroy them and you'll never do it with infantry. If the enemy is surrounded you'll destroy them in the end but quit thinking you'll do it over night.
 
Supply must be in excess of required at the base and then part of what moves is lost (depends on supply rating of move)  Unless you right beside a base with 200,000 supply in excess of required you will not find it easy to push enough to maintain 450,000 troops in lavish manner.
 
Most of this should be common sense.  You place 450,000 troops or more into a hex and then wonder why supply problems exist.  You'd have a hard time maintaining 450,000 troops if they were located in Osaka or Tokyo let alone a hex in China while engaged in combat.   Your winning so relax. Think WWI not Rommel or Patton.

[Sneer]

i expect to detroy 1 level of forts during 2 weeks game time - that's all
after such amazing fight troops regain combat value 2-3 weeks
they can't be used on day 2



I expect to notice any progress during 6 month siege
damn it is not overnight

[Sneer]

please either we talk about our combat mechanism or about history
this game is quite far from historical realism in many areas - especially ground combat

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I see you guys keep posting that those results are some kind of problem. Just what exactly do you expect/want (Your results would make me happy if I got them)
You know your reported loss is not actual loss so why cry about it. b Do you really expect to wipe out 140,000 enemy troops in 24 hours?  (It should take weeks)
The Japanese do not have enough armour in their entire inventory to pursue 140,000 enemy troops through a 60 mile hex and destroy them and you'll never do it with infantry. If the enemy is surrounded you'll destroy them in the end but quit thinking you'll do it over night.

Supply must be in excess of required at the base and then part of what moves is lost (depends on supply rating of move)  Unless you right beside a base with 200,000 supply in excess of required you will not find it easy to push enough to maintain 450,000 troops in lavish manner.

Most of this should be common sense.  You place 450,000 troops or more into a hex and then wonder why supply problems exist.  You'd have a hard time maintaining 450,000 troops if they were located in Osaka or Tokyo let alone a hex in China while engaged in combat.   Your winning so relax. Think WWI not Rommel or Patton.

I'm not so much concerned about the end result but how the end result is achieved. As far as I can tell units are not receiving their combat supply until after the first days combat is fought.

[Sneer]

you were told it is not important
i'm getting frustrated even more

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

you were told it is not important
i'm getting frustrated even more

That's not adding to the discussion.

[Sneer]

sorry to all
i'm logging out
i think i'm getting to nervous