Mod for random maps

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

ORIGINAL: Bombur

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda
Hmmm... I use the 'standard military symbols' mod for my unit symbols... and for your mod made them myself for cavalry and costal artillery. I could do the rest of them (there are only about a half dozen others... would probably have to invent the Zepplin symbol) if you want but.... with these... have to replace the picture files that are there to be used.. so need to be in a separate folder for those that want to use them.

-The last versions of my mod already have symbols for Zeppelins, Jet Fighters, Jet Bombers, Seaplanes and Torpedo bombers. They were created by Jeffrey H.

I was talking about something else. The game comes standard with 'picture' icons for all units... but a lot of wargames use the 'standard military symbols' on the units and there is a mod out on the community web site that replaces the pictures with the standard military symbols. I use this mod normally with AT but with your mod the cavalry was coming up with the picture you included in your mod... so I did a standard military symbol for it (box with a slash through it) and replaced the picture file (after saving it) with the military symbol and then did the same for the coastal artillery.

Again, if you want these I can get them to you but... no big deal.

Z

P.S. Some games... I believe it was the V for Victory/World at War games where I have seen this.... allow you to choose between the picture icons and the standard military symbols.

I believe Z is refering to the NATO 'type' symbols:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APP-6a

I think there was a mod with these type of unit symbols. But some new ones would need to be created since these current symbols don't fit all the weapon types that existed in the pre WWII timeframe.

[Bombur]

Ah...true, I have the mod with these symbols...it´s the wargame mod (used by Grymme to create his Norway scenario). It´s a good mod, but for now I´m not willing to change grphics, at least not after the effort you put to create these new ones. I´m more interested in improving research, AI and balance in this mod.

[Zaratoughda]

Bombur....

I may have come up with something for you re your mod and the AI.

If you give Cavalry I a RoleAI.... of say 10.... in ARMOR...

Then the AI will build a lot of cavalry first thing and send them out to explore and... this is WAY to the advantage of the AI.... will get a lot of cities faster and thus be able to produce a lot more stuff.

OK, cavalry ain't armor but there should be a recon roll but there isn't and the AI uses units having the ARMOR role for this.... in the normal game sends out a lot of armored cars early.... so if you give cavalry an armor roll the AI will use them for recon which... is what they should be used for.

There's various rulevars that you might want to tweek... like the percentage of armor that the AI trys to build... the precentage of production that goes into AIR (this isn't WW2), possibly turning the random AI personality off (don't want the AI to embark on an air campaign), etc... but the RoleAI of 10 in Armor for cavalry is the one thing that seemed to make a big difference.

Z

[Bombur]

Did you make this test for cavalry? I had a trouble with earlier versions. The AI fell in love with cavalry and created cavalry only based arimes (that were wiped out when attempted offensive actions against infantry units, particularly if equipped with machineguns). So I changed cavalry to infantry support with good results. I can experience with the change you suggests but, while cavalry is useful in the first rounds, it will become useless latter, so I´m not willing to increase cavalry production too much.

[Zaratoughda]

Hmmm..... I can understand what you are saying.... was concerned myself in watching the AI..... that he might JUST build cavalry. So, that is why I suggested only giving a value of 10 to the Armor RoleAI for cavalry. Then, once the AI gets the armored car sf, it will (hopefully) just build armored cars for armor and not the cavalry.

In the testing I did the AI+ at first sent out lots of the cavalry and, IMO, for your mod that is much better than what I saw before. But, it kept building cavalry and one cavalry unit that ended up attacking my motionless supreme HQ (in the test) had 41 cavalry sf in it. But, I at first started seeing rifle sf appear (some the AI put with the cavalry) and then it started building the armored cars.

The other thing that might help here.... the LandAttack and LandDefense percentages for armor, infantry and artillery. Might adjust the armor percentages in these down to 10%. The problem here.... is the AI does not seem to follow these percentages... but possibly this is just early on... maybe after the first few turns it will follow these I dunno.

Also... turning the random AI personality off... might make a difference here.

I will let you know the results of any further testing I do.

Z

[Zaratoughda]

Bombur....

Just wanna say here that I 'watched' a test game with these changes and the AI sent out the cavalry first of course but then went to building rifle, armored cars, and the like.

So, I played out a game with two AI+ opponents and the changes I mentioned... and it seemed to work pretty well.... with the AI about as competitive as in the regular game. Things move slower of course, this is WW1 not WW2.... but again seemed to play out OK.

Besides giving the cavalry I an AIRole in armor of 10.... I changed the LandAttack and LandDefense plan percentages.... to armor: 10, infantry: 60, and artillery 30. As you are aware the computer doesn't build any artillery for all practical purpose (in your mod as well as in the regular game) but this setup seemed to work as far as getting the AI to build mostly infantry and armored cars after the inital couple of turns.

I also dropped the percentage or air down from .2 to .05... but the AI still built multiple Zepplins which are EXPENSIVE.

I did this with the production value of .2 as you have it in your mod... but should try it at .01 as I was using in the regular game.

Oh.... I believe I had 'random AI personality' turned off on this.... checking.... yes, had it turned off.

Z

[Bombur]

Thank you, Zaratoughda, I will test your suggestions. But now I have a much more serious trouble. One of my friends is noticing that it´s possible to build almost all research possible in 30 turns, while surving to AI++ (2 AI++ and 2 Human players). It is possible that the cheap pp´s (250) and supply (1) are causing this effect. I was waiting for a slower game, and actually, most of my opponents complained about the slow pace of research. What is the opinion of of all players who experienced Bombur mod? Should I make research more expensive again?

[Zaratoughda]

Bombur....

U gotta realize that the period you cover historically includes two world wars plus various other wars and signficent periods of peace. So, it would be a fantasy that any player should be able to get full research advancement in just one game.

So, you gotta decide if this is what you want.... or otherwise a game where no ways can you get full advancement in just one game... and have different ptmaster files for different start periods and different pp costs (lower costs for later periods assuming higher research costs) for each.

The simpliest thing you can do... double the cost of all reasearh (or, double the cost of PP). With this.... your friends would need 60 turns to reach the top rather than 30. If you double it again... then it would take 120 turns.

Another way of doing things..... go like regular AT. With regular AT, with each suceeding level of reasearh, the cost doubles (if Atrillery II cost 40 PP then Artillery III would cost 80 PP). Again, this would probably make the highest levels of research impossible for normal game, so you then need ptmaster files with different start times (and pp costs less or.... you can adjust the research costs).

In any case.... you gotta decide what you want.. then go from there.

Z

P.S. I was interested in your mod because it allowed me to play random games with different units than the standard AT... DLed The Great War scenario and... it does not come with a ptmaster file so... no go there. Would be nice to have different ptmaster files with different units in a random game for different periods... albeit the AI might have some problems.

[Bombur]

Zaratoughda

First, thank you for all interest in my mod. You´re right, my mod is a fantasy scenario, but also a platform for less fantastic ones. Even in a fantasy game, a certain degree of historical plausibility is good. My mod was specifically designed to force the players to follow a more or less historical research path. It has a few pre requisites to hurt the research of those who attempt to jump to the more advanced age, withouth researching intermediate units, so I became alarmed with the e-mail of my partner. Fortunately, the system is working as expected and attempts to jump to the more advanced ages won´t give nothing to the player. I added a specifical advice about this in my scenario briefing (to be read in the editor). However, my system had a few holes that were noe fixed (thanks you for information, Lunaticus[:D]). I will keep the cheaper research costs. Now I will make some experience with your settings for the AI.

[Zaratoughda]

Bombur.... just wanted to mention this hear because we had discussed it....

As far as the AI using units with Armor RoleAI values for exploration... and the problem of the AI building armies of units that you give armor RoleAI values to.....

What I did in the new ARHS ptmaster files that I just uploaded to the community web site.... in the ARHS_1800 ptmaster..... was to give Cossacks an armor roleAI value (so they will be used for exploration) but created a new Cossack SFType that cannot be built by any people (so the AI will not build any of these) and then gave like 20 of these to each starting HQ unit. With this... the AI will start with these and explore with them but then will not be able to build any more. Also... because the AI was sticking infantry in with the cossack units the first chance it got.... I gave the Cossacks a carry capacity of 1 so they will (usually) not be slowed down by this.

I also did an event... just one... that runs on the first turn and, amongst other things, adds other sfs (leaders in this case, but could be any sf) to the surpeme HQs.

In short... if you want to see the particulars on how I did this... just dl these ptmaster files from the community web site, bring them up, and take a look.

Z

[Bombur]

Downloaded them from the site. Thank you. The big trouble we are looking at now is that the AI, after a very fast start (in a few turns they research 1910-1919 units), seems to stop all research and accumulates fantatisct amounts of pp points (up to 7000, and increasing). The question is: why the AI stops research? Maybe Vic could help with this question?

[Vic]

Probably because the AI neeeds research field 1920-1929 before it can research any further units, but it doesnt see any need to research that field... probably because the SFType picture linked to that 1920-1929 research field is something the AI does not want to construct. Maybe its an SFType without any AIRole scores the AI needs?

You can check the log files in the log directory to see how the AI is ranking all possible research fields.

kind regards,
Vic

[Bombur]

ORIGINAL: Vic

Probably because the AI neeeds research field 1920-1929 before it can research any further units, but it doesnt see any need to research that field... probably because the SFType picture linked to that 1920-1929 research field is something the AI does not want to construct. Maybe its an SFType without any AIRole scores the AI needs?

You can check the log files in the log directory to see how the AI is ranking all possible research fields.

kind regards,
Vic

-How do I check these ones? If the AI researching Airships, why they rate other units lower? 1920-29 fields are:

-Air: Early torpedo bombers
-Land: AT Rifles
-Naval: Battlecruiser III

-They are actually more useful than 1900-1909 fields
-Air: Zeppelins
-Land: Early truck
-Naval: Submarines

[Bombur]

I looked to the AI log and, while it seems the AI is building artillery and fighters (which is good), I didn´t find any research ranking...

[Bombur]

Also chcked the AI roles and it´s all ok. Actually, it seems the AI is stalling somewhere in 1910´s units, and not in the 1920´s gates

[Vic]

In the log of the AI search for "research" and you should find a report like this.

RESEARCH
Saved pp:  9, Normal pp:  46
bestseamod=  0.0114315
Bazooka .. weight = 400, previous weight=  4,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Tankdestroyer .. weight = 100, previous weight=  1,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Flak .. weight = 400, previous weight=  4,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Fighter .. weight = 500, previous weight=  5,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Levelbomber .. weight = 600, previous weight=  6,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Divebomber .. weight = 600, previous weight=  6,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Rifle II .. weight = 184, previous weight=  4,  powerpointpercentmod= 16
Light Tank II .. weight = 100, previous weight=  1,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Artillery II .. weight = 700, previous weight=  7,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Infantry Gun III .. weight = 257, previous weight=  3,  powerpointpercentmod= 5
AT-Gun II .. weight = 600, previous weight=  6,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Medium Tank II .. weight = 0, previous weight=  0,  powerpointpercentmod= 4
Heavy Tank II .. weight = 89, previous weight=  1,  powerpointpercentmod= 4
Machinegun III .. weight = 75, previous weight=  1,  powerpointpercentmod= 8
Scout II .. weight = 400, previous weight=  4,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Mortar III .. weight = 200, previous weight=  2,  powerpointpercentmod= 1
Cruiser II .. weight = 0, previous weight=  0,  powerpointpercentmod= 4

[Bombur]

My report has only the two first lines....well, I give up. I´m going to prepare a new version of the mod withouth the gates...

[Jeffrey H.]

Why not add an AIRole score to the gate ?

[Zaratoughda]

Really! Actually, why not add multiple AIRoles to the gate? That should get the AI to build it I would think for sure.

Z

[Bombur]

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Why not add an AIRole score to the gate ?

I did....but, for some strange reason, doesn´t work. My version withouth gates seems to be working somewhat better. The AI developed up to mortars III, but still seems to stall after that unit.