Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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Dili
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: Dili
ORIGINAL: rustysi



Okinawa was in fact the single largest invasion ever made.

Okinawa had 7 Divisions i think just after a cursory look at wiki. I am not sure all were in first wave.

Husky had 3 US Inf.Div, 1 US Para, 1 Canadian Div, 3 British Infantry Divisions and 1 British Para/Airland. This was the first wave. The extension of the coast invaded was also several dozen km between extremes.

Also 1 US Armored, 1 US ID, 1 British ID and several brigades (reserve - follow up)

To begin with there was no 1 US Para. All that jumped in Husky was a regiment, 50? something. Last I stand by my assertion that Okinawa was the largest seaborne invasion ever made.

BTW the US airborne jump in Husky was almost the end for those forces as it was a fiasco. Many A/C shot down by friendly fire.

You didn't brought any evidence to support your assertion.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Dili, you are mostly right about 3 CCNN.
In May 1940 the 21 April Libyan CCNN division was disbanded and its
Blackshirt personnel were used to strengthen the other three Blackshirt divisions. This
was due to the fact that they were not manned to their full strength for personnel. The
army personnel (which made up most of the supporting services) were used to help form
the 64th Catanzaro Infantry division for the same reasons. This reorganization started in
May 1940 was not yet finished as of June 1940


If anyone is interested, I have a pdf which I believe came from CARL (Combined Arms Research Library)
FALLEN EAGLES: THE ITALIAN 10TH ARMY IN THE OPENING CAMPAIGN IN THE WESTERN DESERT, JUNE 1940 – DECEMBER 1940
HOWARD R. CHRISTIE, MAJ, USA

If you cant find, drop a PM and I'll email the pdf.

The article goes into Italian doctrine and structure in lots of detail, explains why the Binary Div was chosen (to fight in The Alps/Abbysynia) and covers Armoured Forces in detail.

The problem with this is that is looked trough American practices. "Doctrine" had not the same weight that Americans give to it in Italian army at the time. At most they were what i could call "desires" , because a strong policy to fulfill the doctrine is not followed, neither was well developed, well thought except probably mountainous defense, and maybe just by practice.
There is a conflict between mountain designed units and guerra de rapido corso(fast war), adding to that Mussolini political-military boasting desires by numbers. The cars had no radio and there wasn't much thought given to it, neither to formations types, deployment for combat, tactics. Not much was deeply thought, most was just flying by. Adding to that personal fiefdoms between generals and between those that had more allegiance to Monarchy and the King, and those that were more for Il Duce.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

.....all of which continues to point - certainly for the Italian Army and to only a slightly lesser extent the air force - in one direction, and makes a section of O'Hara's conclusion chapter in the book difficult to fathom.

He states "Italy's decision to enter the war proved ill-advised, but given the situation in June 1940 it would have taken supernatural foresight to realise that".

Well Count Ciano clearly had supernatural powers "I am sad, very sad. The adventure begins. May God help Italy!"

I would like to know one army general who believed Italy was ready for war.

Essentially that malodorous buffoon Mussolini gambled his country and the lives of his people on Germany's ability to finish off the Western Allies and for Britain to give in. Boiled down, that is what his decision came to. He thought presenting a few thousand dead would give him a seat at the victory table - knowing full well that if his confidence was mis-placed, Italy would not be ready for a war of any duration.

But strangely O'Hara then goes further:

"Italy had no vital military need to fight an offensive war in North Africa, but, contrary to pre-war plans, it did so for reasons of politics and prestige".

Well no, having chosen to go to war, what was he supposed to do? What is the scenario here?

- Mussolini declares war on the British and French to create a new Roman Empire and obtain Italian control of access to the Atlantic and Indian Oceans
- His great plan has blown up in his face. Having failed to contribute anything meaningful to the loss of France (but has got the Italian peoples butchers bill underway) Britain refuses to give in and Hitler, thinking of the bigger picture, refuses to give Mussolini the prizes he wanted
- Realistically what does Mussolini do now? Stir the populace with the call to arms - "My fellow Italians it is time to escape the shackles imposed upon us by the British who hem us in at either end of our sea - yes that's right, it's time to er....sit on the defensive....."

So the Italian populace suddenly get welcomed to all the unpleasant aspects of being at war - in terms of blockade, rationing, naval bombardment of Italian towns etc - and with absolutely no end in sight because they are not going to do anything to achieve their war aims. Meanwhile the troops, ordered to take a firmly defensive posture in North and East Africa are expected to simply sit and wait for the British while the economy gets weaker, the Italian people wonder what the hell this is all about, and Hitler's frustration with his ally boils over.

Meanwhile the British do what? That Egypt has not been invaded does not mean they are not going to strike against Libya at the first opportunity.
Going on the defensive sounds possible in theory (and knowing what happened with hindsight) but in practice?

Sorry but that comment makes no sense to me. As soon as Mussolini orders Italy to war (which he does for reasons of politics and prestige) he has no choice but to try and take Egypt.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by JeffroK »

Add the need/desire to join Lybia & Abbysynia by occupying Egypt & The Sudan, defended by something less than 20 Battalions.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

Well no, having chosen to go to war, what was he supposed to do? What is the scenario here?

The only scenario was the peace conference that would happen in September or so...

Italy declared war in 10 June and then adopted a defensive posture. PR 12 plan.
There was some symbolic bombing of Malta in first day.
Then Italians mixed a British bombing of Torino thinking that were French and made some attacks in France.
Alexandria were most Mediterranean Fleet was, should not be attacked by Mussolini determination. It wasn't until July.

The war was to be mostly symbolic. We shot some stuff, you shot some stuff then we seat at table to discuss business. No need for another WW1 disaster.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dili
Well no, having chosen to go to war, what was he supposed to do? What is the scenario here?

The only scenario was the peace conference that would happen in September or so...

Italy declared war in 10 June and then adopted a defensive posture. PR 12 plan.
There was some symbolic bombing of Malta in first day.
Then Italians mixed a British bombing of Torino thinking that were French and made some attacks in France.
Alexandria were most Mediterranean Fleet was, should not be attacked by Mussolini determination. It wasn't until July.

The war was to be mostly symbolic. We shot some stuff, you shot some stuff then we seat at table to discuss business. No need for another WW1 disaster.
warspite1

I would be interested to know more about this please - because the adopting of a defensive posture according to a defined plan until September does not accord with what I have read previously.

- The War at Sea (as in September 1939) began from day one. The British lost 5 submarines and a cruiser and the Italians 11 and a cruiser, plus there was the Battle of Calabria and sundry convoy battles before September 1940.

- The Campaign in East Africa began in August 1940

- In those first three months, while the British prepared for possible invasion of the UK, and the Italians did not attack across the Egyptian border, as you say there were border skirmishes with the British causing 3,500 Italian casualties and incurring 150.

- However, rather than the absence of attack being part of a plan as suggested, the reality was different. Mussolini had been pestering Balbo/Badoglio to get moving from the start. A plan was prepared for mid-July (I have seen references to 15th and 17th of July), and Hitler was informed that the attack was ready to be launched. The attack was delayed to early August after the death of Balbo - but this date came and went with Graziani complaining (no doubt understandably) that the army wasn't ready (although they hugely outnumbered the defenders) - and ultimately Mussolini had to issue an ultimatum to Graziani to move into Egypt or be sacked at the start of September. These actions don't sound like the Italians were carrying out a defensive plan.

EDIT: Okay, found it. So PR12 was a pre-war plan that seems to have got ignored during the orgasm of power that Mussolini obviously felt when the Germans had France on her knees and the British ejected from the continent.... [8|]

So in the changed circumstances of June 1940 (France out of the war) this was a totally unrealistic plan and no symbolism intended on Il Duce's part.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

Until September the plan was of employing the defensive plan [:D], of course then things changed Britain didn't seem to loose the Battle of Britain neither near any armistice.

PR 12 was pre-war plan that was in practice in use in first month of the war.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dili

Until September the plan was of employing the defensive plan [:D], of course then things changed Britain didn't seem to loose the Battle of Britain neither near any armistice.

PR 12 was pre-war plan that was in practice in use in first month of the war.
warspite1

Right. So the plan - until September - was to employ the pre-war plan, but planning for that plan failed and the pre-war plan was only in place for one month because Mussolini insisted on a new plan which meant they instead planned to invade Egypt in July using this new plan, but then this plan was postponed because their general died and the new plan was postponed to August but then that new new plan failed because the new general thought the new new plan unworkable, until Mussolini decided that he execute the new new plan in September or he would be written out of the plan and replaced with a new general who would execute the plan. Got it

[:)]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: Dili

Until September the plan was of employing the defensive plan [:D], of course then things changed Britain didn't seem to loose the Battle of Britain neither near any armistice.

PR 12 was pre-war plan that was in practice in use in first month of the war.

O'Hara suggests that "Italy's hopes for empire may have resided in Africa but its economic interests lay in the Balkans and the home peninsula."
If the Italians originally had pre-war plans to initially remain on the defensive in the Mediterranean and Africa, would the same approach be
expected in relation to Greece and/or the Yugoslav territories along the Adriatic like Croatia?
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

ORIGINAL: Dili

Until September the plan was of employing the defensive plan [:D], of course then things changed Britain didn't seem to loose the Battle of Britain neither near any armistice.

PR 12 was pre-war plan that was in practice in use in first month of the war.

O'Hara suggests that "Italy's hopes for empire may have resided in Africa but its economic interests lay in the Balkans and the home peninsula."
If the Italians originally had pre-war plans to initially remain on the defensive in the Mediterranean and Africa, would the same approach be
expected in relation to Greece and/or the Yugoslav territories along the Adriatic like Croatia?
warspite1

Yes, my understanding is that in March 1940 the latest iteration of the plan was for Italy to remain on the defensive on all fronts inc the Yugoslav Alpine regions and Albania. Only the army in East Africa and the navy in the Med and elsewhere were to act offensively. There was no plan either to co-ordinate Italian actions with Germany.

But then the above included France and Egypt too and we know what happened to that plan come June 10th...

Essentially, once at war Mussolini got even more over excited, saw what Hitler was achieving in Poland, Norway, Belgium and Holland and decided that knocking over Greece, in winter, in the mountains, while also involved against the British in Egypt would make good sense....
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

The next point in O’Hara’s conclusion is that in his view the British never needed to fight in the Mediterranean.

He suggests that in August 1940 Malta and the Middle East faced a negligible threat but the British fought there because “the new Churchill administration considered “defence” a dirty word” and that was the only place they could fight the Axis after being evicted from the continent and the French defeated.

The first point is of course nonsense said with hindsight. The British had no idea at that stage whether Hitler was going to adopt a Mediterranean strategy, or even a limited one to assist the Italians in taking Malta and Egypt. The later point is of course true, hence the very real need to fight in North Africa, but the jibe that defence was a dirty word to Churchill is just pretty silly; just as the point was made above that Mussolini could not declare war and then go on the defensive (which would almost certainly cause the loss of his African Empire) so Britain could not continue the war and just wait for the Germans to be in a position to invade (and the reasons for this become evident below).

The next paragraph reveals once again a more ‘selected’ version of events that, instead of properly appraising the situation, is designed to make Britain’s performance look bad in comparison to Italy. O’Hara states that the British thought that Italy could be driven from North Africa and taken out of the war and this is of course true. He then states that this is exactly what happened, except that it took 38 months (and he repeats the accusation that it took Britain’s main effort) and required American participation to complete. Again, with caveats already discussed around what constitutes Britain’s main effort, this is true. However, and this is where authors can subtly direct the facts to suit their argument, there is no mention that it was only German intervention (combined with the British error of judgement re not finishing the job in North Africa quickly) that stopped this from happening in early 1941 (and of course when he later mentions German forces it is to minimise the impact on Germany and at no point does the author emphasise (or even mention) the desperate need for these forces to be present in theatre). We have seen above what happened when Germany was not there - Operation Compass, Malta Striking Force in late 1941, Operation Judgement, and the inability to stop the re-supply of Malta.

O’Hara then makes the point that the fighting on the North African coast and trying to save Malta (despite agreeing that this was the only place Britain could fight the Axis on land) was only a secondary goal (?) that caused the British to neglect their vital interests, and that the loss of Malta or even Suez would not impact Britain’s global situation. O’Hara does concede that it is “difficult to characterise as short-sighted the decision of men engaged in a life-and-death struggle who are suffering daily bombardments of their great cities and who are preparing their nation for invasion” and yet that is, effectively, what he seeks to do. I agree about Malta from a military point of view, but politically the decision to abandon had to be either taken in mid-1940 (when the British thought they could quickly take Italy out and so was unrealistic) or not at all (because of the morale effect that such a volte-face would have).

What then does he consider were Britain’s vital interests?

- Defending the Middle Eastern oil fields
- Retention of Ceylon and Singapore
- Defence of the North Atlantic sea lanes

It is difficult to discuss these separately – most aspects of the war cannot be looked at in isolation – and as will be seen here, the affects of any action intertwine with another:

- Whether Britain pursued an offensive strategy or a defensive strategy in the Mediterranean, the Med was closed to British merchant shipping as a means of traversing from one end to another (although did prove possible before German intervention). This was recognised in planning before the war. The fact was, having to go around the Cape to get to the Middle and Far East, did create a massive strain on shipping. But whether Britain was sending reinforcements and supplies to the Middle East or the Far East that remains true. So not only does his suggested stronger defence of the Far East NOT relax that burden, but his arguments actually reinforce the strategy that the British adopted to try and knock Italy out of the war quickly and get the Mediterranean open again.

- Quite how else a defensive strategy in the Middle East was going to help the North Atlantic is unclear to say the least. Firstly, more Italian submarines could be sent to the Atlantic and there aren’t large numbers of ASW vessels that could be taken from the Med to the Atlantic to compensate – and even less when Japan enters stage right (but the latter is hindsight).

- So what about the idea that the British could retreat from North Africa, block the Suez Canal, and try and hold a line East Africa-Aden-India? The French have been defeated. Britain refuses to give in but she and the Commonwealth were on their own. Militarily the US sits in isolation, the USSR are busy reaping the territorial rewards that German friendship has brought them, Japan is only mildly threatening at this point but needs a watchful eye, and the intentions of Spain and Turkey are unknown. So with Britain having agreed to carry on, but making it clear she can do no more than sit and wait developments while carrying out a limited strategic withdrawal, what is to stop the latter two from making hay while the sun shines? Well the idea that the war really is as good as over could potentially encourage those latter countries. Before looking at them, what about Italy? Britain has just given Italy a free ride. Without much effort, Italy walks into an undefended Malta and takes Egypt. Suez has been closed and the oil wells and pipelines from Iraq have been destroyed but the Axis can set about repairs on these and it is likely oil will start flowing in 6-12 months. Note: Iraq oil was not vital to the British – but stopping the Axis getting hold of it certainly was. Furthermore Persian Oil was vital to keep the Far Eastern Empire going during the war [Persia would then potentially come under threat but let’s leave that as the response to this of the USSR would now become central]. Back to Italy and Il Duce celebrates a brilliant double whammy - and his decision to enter the war now looks like a masterstroke. With the Royal Navy gone from the Eastern Mediterranean, does Franco now decide to throw in his lot – in which case Gibraltar falls? If so the Italian fleet now has free access to the North and South Atlantic. Could this be enough to convince Hitler that a Mediterranean strategy is viable in order to tempt Turkey with offers to restore territories to their WWI buddies of the Ottoman Empire? So Turkey, how do you fancy a bit of Greece? This has the added advantage of threatening the USSR from the south when it’s time for Barbarossa. With the British out of the Mediterranean Hitler has less need to worry about Vichy and her vulnerable territories. He now has the opportunity of collapsing Vichy now that useful tool has served its purpose and he can carve up her possessions to Spain and Italy.

- Whilst a strategic withdrawal from the Mediterranean appears so easy on paper, in reality this is a BIG development. So I’m not really seeing what the British have gained here by not taking the war to Italy (and Germany) - but the very reverse in fact. The British will still need troops on that East Africa-Aden-India line to stop defeat there and giving access to the Indian Ocean to the Axis and their aircraft. But let’s park that for the moment and go with the idea that all these Aussie and Kiwi troops were now available to defend Singapore and Ceylon. How could this be achieved? Well the Mediterranean Fleet/Force H will need to be redistributed. Most of those ships will need to return to the Atlantic to counter Italian naval moves against the convoys. There will be little left for the Far East – and certainly not enough to make the defence of Singapore or the East Indies any more viable than it subsequently proved to be.

O’Hara states that his analysis “downplays political factors and that politically it may have been impossible for Great Britain to fight its war according to the cold dictates of military necessity. Politically it may have been impossible to surrender Malta and the Mediterranean to Axis control and focus on greater needs”. But I think that what the above shows is that while politically it might not have been possible, militarily it would have been a disaster.

The British did consider abandoning the Middle East pre-war (and this debate continued during the war) in favour of defence of the Far East (it was recognised in the thirties that Britain could not properly meet the threat from Germany, Italy and Japan and so two would need to be met with the third on a defensive basis). But it was clear that with the way the war had developed there was no sensible reason for doing that – the US subscribed to this view too.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

Congratulations, that's probably twice the amount of words O'Hara used in that section of his conclusion.[:)]

Nice analysis but I'll just make one point for clarity. O'Hara is critical of the expensive British decision to go on and remain on the offensive in the
Mediterranean, particularly after the original objective of quickly knocking Italy out of the war had proven far more difficult than first thought. To my
knowledge though, O'Hara does not ever suggest the British should not have fought in defense (and less expensively) of their Mediterranean position.

Maybe it was because of the sheer number of words but to me the line between not being on the offense in the Mediterranean and not being there at all
seemed to be blurred at times in your analysis.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Buckrock

ORIGINAL: Dili

Until September the plan was of employing the defensive plan [:D], of course then things changed Britain didn't seem to loose the Battle of Britain neither near any armistice.

PR 12 was pre-war plan that was in practice in use in first month of the war.

O'Hara suggests that "Italy's hopes for empire may have resided in Africa but its economic interests lay in the Balkans and the home peninsula."
If the Italians originally had pre-war plans to initially remain on the defensive in the Mediterranean and Africa, would the same approach be
expected in relation to Greece and/or the Yugoslav territories along the Adriatic like Croatia?
warspite1

Yes, my understanding is that in March 1940 the latest iteration of the plan was for Italy to remain on the defensive on all fronts inc the Yugoslav Alpine regions and Albania. Only the army in East Africa and the navy in the Med and elsewhere were to act offensively. There was no plan either to co-ordinate Italian actions with Germany.

But then the above included France and Egypt too and we know what happened to that plan come June 10th...

Essentially, once at war Mussolini got even more over excited, saw what Hitler was achieving in Poland, Norway, Belgium and Holland and decided that knocking over Greece, in winter, in the mountains, while also involved against the British in Egypt would make good sense....

Seems your calendar is not working very well...Mussolini saw all that in peace time.

Attack on Greece was because Hitler didn't warned Mussolini of German troops being "invited" in Romania - the only place the Italy could get oil by that time- but the main reason was emotional out of spite.

Greece is one more nice way to show how things were "planned" in those times... Mussolini, Ciano - who liked to hint that he had some Greek highups in the check book - and Prasca with Army concocted a plan that even didn't respected the Army plan for invading Greece. That plan required 20 Divisions, they attacked with less then 10 because suddenly they had a vision and all saw the Greeks surrendering at first shot.

And btw the Navy and the Air force were not invited to that meeting...

Not inviting the Navy and the Air Force.
Choosing to attack mountainous terrain without much roads in Autumn/Winter
Not staging supplies and forces.
Not following the action army plan, starting with less than half the divisions required.

Could only work well...


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warspite1
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Buckrock




O'Hara suggests that "Italy's hopes for empire may have resided in Africa but its economic interests lay in the Balkans and the home peninsula."
If the Italians originally had pre-war plans to initially remain on the defensive in the Mediterranean and Africa, would the same approach be
expected in relation to Greece and/or the Yugoslav territories along the Adriatic like Croatia?
warspite1

Yes, my understanding is that in March 1940 the latest iteration of the plan was for Italy to remain on the defensive on all fronts inc the Yugoslav Alpine regions and Albania. Only the army in East Africa and the navy in the Med and elsewhere were to act offensively. There was no plan either to co-ordinate Italian actions with Germany.

But then the above included France and Egypt too and we know what happened to that plan come June 10th...

Essentially, once at war Mussolini got even more over excited, saw what Hitler was achieving in Poland, Norway, Belgium and Holland and decided that knocking over Greece, in winter, in the mountains, while also involved against the British in Egypt would make good sense....

Seems your calendar is not working very well...Mussolini saw all that in peace time.

Attack on Greece was because Hitler didn't warned Mussolini of German troops being "invited" in Romania - the only place the Italy could get oil by that time- but the main reason was emotional out of spite.

Greece is one more nice way to show how things were "planned" in those times... Mussolini, Ciano - who liked to hint that he had some Greek highups in the check book - and Prasca with Army concocted a plan that even didn't respected the Army plan for invading Greece. That plan required 20 Divisions, they attacked with less then 10 because suddenly they had a vision and all saw the Greeks surrendering at first shot.

And btw the Navy and the Air force were not invited to that meeting...

Not inviting the Navy and the Air Force.
Choosing to attack mountainous terrain without much roads in Autumn/Winter
Not staging supplies and forces.
Not following the action army plan, starting with less than half the divisions required.

Could only work well...


warspite1

Re the sentence in bold - sorry I have no idea what you are referring to. Please clarify.

Re the second part, yes, earlier in this thread I alluded to the attack on Greece coming as a result of a fit of pique.

As to the rest re Greece, yes we are in agreement as per my last line in the post you quoted.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Congratulations, that's probably twice the amount of words O'Hara used in that section of his conclusion.[:)]

Nice analysis but I'll just make one point for clarity. O'Hara is critical of the expensive British decision to go on and remain on the offensive in the
Mediterranean, particularly after the original objective of quickly knocking Italy out of the war had proven far more difficult than first thought. To my
knowledge though, O'Hara does not ever suggest the British should not have fought in defense (and less expensively) of their Mediterranean position.

Maybe it was because of the sheer number of words but to me the line between not being on the offense in the Mediterranean and not being there at all
seemed to be blurred at times in your analysis.
warspite1

Re the number of words, yes I think it appropriate to give adequate explanation when one is attacking the rubbishing of an entire strategy – particularly when in doing so, the simplistic nature of the argument needs to be properly exposed. When I reviewed O’Hara’s Torch (a decent book by the way) one of my criticisms is that at the end of every chapter was a conclusion. The problem was not the appearance of a conclusion – which was welcome – but the fact they were so short, almost as if they were an afterthought…… I feel that O’Hara has taken the same approach here. But anyway I digress….

To be clear, O’Hara is critical of the decision to go on and remain on the offensive in the Mediterranean after the original objective of quickly knocking Italy out of the war had proven far more difficult than first thought*. But he is also critical of Britain fighting any offensive war in the Mediterranean too – which apparently was not needed and was a secondary theatre…. Funny old war that O’Hara seems to be envisaging should have taken place – Italy not fighting from Libya and Britain not fighting from Egypt or Malta. Bizarre.

*Note that even had the British taken that view, the problems detailed below still apply – as indeed does the original need to fight in the Mediterranean as the only place to take on the Euro Axis on land.

Anyway back to the real world. What O’Hara said was:
- The RN should have vacated the Eastern Mediterranean (what I asked re the message that such action would have sent out to Spain and Turkey remains).
- The loss of Suez would not have been a problem

Did he actually say that the British should not have fought in the defence of Egypt? No, not in so many words – a lot of words are not his forte - but his throwaway line that the loss of Suez would apparently not be a problem perhaps gives a clue as to how hard the British should have fought for it in his eyes.

He did say that the best divisions should have been defending the Far East. Now forgive me but if the ‘best’ divisions that remained in North Africa in real life could not achieve a decisive breakthrough earlier – and indeed in 1942 were pushed back to El-Alamein, why does he assume that they would not be needed in a defensive war centred on Egypt?

All the British are doing, if they choose to fight in Egypt as opposed to Libya, is make a German breakthrough more problematic as the Axis are starting further forward – where do the British go once Cairo falls? Giving up the Eastern Mediterranean and defending Egypt only means the Italians can brings supplies further east. Note: the fleet’s position in Alexandria would have been completely untenable if the British are defending Egyptian soil only

The situation in Egypt was not exactly stable in WWII. The British deciding to fight a defensive war on the Nile would hardly be likely to invoke confidence from the Egyptians and encourage those who would week to revolt against the British. This is especially true when the Germans revert to terror bombing the civilians of Cairo and environs.

Of course O’Hara may counter the above by saying that the Germans would not have got involved. But again that makes no sense – well it does to O’Hara because in his world I assume he thinks Mussolini won’t attack into Egypt - well he attacked into Egypt in real life so why would he not in this alternate scenario? What has changed? But again, ignoring fantasy, if the British are in Egypt, then Hitler will fear (as he did in real life) an attack on his southern flank while he is involved in the USSR when Graziani’s offensive goes horribly wrong.

So apologies if I did not make myself clear, as you can see from the amendment time, I had a few stabs at it, but I hope that this is a little clearer and my word count is acceptable? [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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Buckrock
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

I'll get back to you about the word count. My calculator battery is still currently flat from having to deal with your original post.
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JeffroK
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by JeffroK »

Who would have become Prime Minister if Churchill ordered a retreat to the Nile or Suez??

IMVHO, if the Italians hadn't invaded Egypt. Wavell would still have been on the offensive by Dec 40.
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Dili
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

Probably it depends how that is done. He wasn't expelled after the disastrous end of 1941:

13 Nov CV Ark Royal sunk
25 Nov BB Barham sunk
10 December BB Prince of Wales and BC Repulse sunk.
19 December Force K partially destroyed in a minefield, cruiser Neptune of almost 800 men had only one survivor.
19 December Raid on Alexandria 2 Battleships sunk/damaged in harbor.

End result: No major Royal Navy ship in either the Mediterranean and Asia.



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warspite1
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dili

Probably it depends how that is done. He wasn't expelled after the disastrous end of 1941:

13 Nov CV Ark Royal sunk
25 Nov BB Barham sunk
10 December BB Prince of Wales and BC Repulse sunk.
19 December Force K partially destroyed in a minefield, cruiser Neptune of almost 800 men had only one survivor.
19 December Raid on Alexandria 2 Battleships sunk/damaged in harbor.

End result: No major Royal Navy ship in either the Mediterranean and Asia.
warspite1

I think it was a rhetorical question [;)]

You mention individual ship sinkings but Churchill survived far worse and far more important defeats. The fall of Tobruk and the loss of Singapore - leading to the retreat to India - being the two key ones. He survived three confidence motions in the house - in May 1941, which he won 447 to 3, in January 1942, which he won 464 to 1 and a more serious vote of no confidence July 1942 which he won 475 to 25. There was never any real chance he would lose power.

In fact overall the war leaders of the major powers proved remarkably resilient - Chamberlain went over the Norway fiasco, Daladier over the inaction that led to the defeat of Finland, Mussolini after the invasion of Italy and Tojo after Saipan.

But in the case of the latter two, Saipan was merely another in a long line of defeats after defeats since Midway so he survived two years of reverses. Mussolini too survived East Africa, Greece (where the Greeks had not only kicked the Italians out of Greece, but had occupied a third of Albania iirc! before being saved by German intervention) North Africa (despite a 4:1 advantage for the Italians, the British ejected them from Cyrennaica before intervention by the Germans).

By the way, would you mind responding to my post 214 please? I would really like to know why you think my calendar is not working very well. I've re-read it but I still don't understand the point. Thanks.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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Dili
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Dili »

All that German conquering Poland etc.. was done before 10 June, so Mussolini could not have seen it in war.
(where the Greeks had not only kicked the Italians out of Greece, but had occupied a third of Albania iirc! before being saved by German intervention)

By that time Italians didn't need any saving, the Greeks were already on defensive.
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