MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands

[rtamesis]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Looking at both maps I just posted, I think that Mindoro is too large now [:D].

Here is my last try at improving the various inner islands.
What do you think ?

I think you did a great job![&o]

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: SurrenderMonkey

Definitely to many usable islands between Hawaii and Midway, IMHO. Take a look at the WitP map - I think the only usable piece of ground is French Frigate Shoals, and it is extremely marginal at best. Johnston Island is due west, and much more viable. What's that west of Midway, between Midway and Wake?

I'd like to ask if anything has been done to eliminate from play islands too small to host an airstrip, a concern first raised in 2006 (Post 9)? War in the Pacific makes the distinction between islands and atolls, and at this new detailed scale I think MWiF should too.

The problem with putting in extra islands and atolls is that each new one reduces the imperative of capturing focus-hexes like Midway. The reason Midway was important was that it was the only airstrip in air range of Hawaii. This doesn't seem to be the case any more.

SurrenderMonkey mentioned French Frigate Shoals. Their sole involvement in the war was during the Midway operation when a Japanese submarine carrying avgas was tasked to rendez-vous there with two Emilies, and refuel them for a reconnaisaance of Pearl Harbor. The task was aborted when the submarine found there was an American seaplane tender there.

French Frigate Shoals is just a reef whose 'platform' is submerged a hundred feet. There is a rock sticking out of the water and that is about it. Millitarily it is totally useless so shouldn't appear on the map in any functional role. I reckon the other 'islands' between Midway and the Hawaiian Islands are even less significant.

The smallest island of military significance (defined as being large enough for an airstrip) is Wake. Mayfair Games published a delightful little game on the two invasions of triangular Wake, where the airstrip took up the whole of one side of the triangle, the other two being arms only a few yards wide. It is the only game I have played where PanAm staff get stuck into the fight!

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ORIGINAL: SurrenderMonkey

Definitely to many usable islands between Hawaii and Midway, IMHO. Take a look at the WitP map - I think the only usable piece of ground is French Frigate Shoals, and it is extremely marginal at best. Johnston Island is due west, and much more viable. What's that west of Midway, between Midway and Wake?

I'd like to ask if anything has been done to eliminate from play islands too small to host an airstrip, a concern first raised in 2006 (Post 9)? War in the Pacific makes the distinction between islands and atolls, and at this new detailed scale I think MWiF should too.

The problem with putting in extra islands and atolls is that each new one reduces the imperative of capturing focus-hexes like Midway. The reason Midway was important was that it was the only airstrip in air range of Hawaii. This doesn't seem to be the case any more.

SurrenderMonkey mentioned French Frigate Shoals. Their sole involvement in the war was during the Midway operation when a Japanese submarine carrying avgas was tasked to rendez-vous there with two Emilies, and refuel them for a reconnaisaance of Pearl Harbor. The task was aborted when the submarine found there was an American seaplane tender there.

French Frigate Shoals is just a reef whose 'platform' is submerged a hundred feet. There is a rock sticking out of the water and that is about it. Millitarily it is totally useless so shouldn't appear on the map in any functional role. I reckon the other 'islands' between Midway and the Hawaiian Islands are even less significant.

The smallest island of military significance (defined as being large enough for an airstrip) is Wake. Mayfair Games published a delightful little game on the two invasions of triangular Wake, where the airstrip took up the whole of one side of the triangle, the other two being arms only a few yards wide. It is the only game I have played where PanAm staff get stuck into the fight!

Good point.

The quick and dirty way to do this is to make them mountain terrain, since air units can not base in mountains. I guess we could add a new terrain type to cover this, but that would be a lot of work.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ORIGINAL: SurrenderMonkey

Definitely to many usable islands between Hawaii and Midway, IMHO. Take a look at the WitP map - I think the only usable piece of ground is French Frigate Shoals, and it is extremely marginal at best. Johnston Island is due west, and much more viable. What's that west of Midway, between Midway and Wake?

I'd like to ask if anything has been done to eliminate from play islands too small to host an airstrip, a concern first raised in 2006 (Post 9)? War in the Pacific makes the distinction between islands and atolls, and at this new detailed scale I think MWiF should too.

The problem with putting in extra islands and atolls is that each new one reduces the imperative of capturing focus-hexes like Midway. The reason Midway was important was that it was the only airstrip in air range of Hawaii. This doesn't seem to be the case any more.

SurrenderMonkey mentioned French Frigate Shoals. Their sole involvement in the war was during the Midway operation when a Japanese submarine carrying avgas was tasked to rendez-vous there with two Emilies, and refuel them for a reconnaisaance of Pearl Harbor. The task was aborted when the submarine found there was an American seaplane tender there.

French Frigate Shoals is just a reef whose 'platform' is submerged a hundred feet. There is a rock sticking out of the water and that is about it. Millitarily it is totally useless so shouldn't appear on the map in any functional role. I reckon the other 'islands' between Midway and the Hawaiian Islands are even less significant.

The smallest island of military significance (defined as being large enough for an airstrip) is Wake. Mayfair Games published a delightful little game on the two invasions of triangular Wake, where the airstrip took up the whole of one side of the triangle, the other two being arms only a few yards wide. It is the only game I have played where PanAm staff get stuck into the fight!

I don't think that this is a problem. The important places of the Pacific War are still important because they sit on multiple sea area. This is what makes them important in WiF. Midway in WiF is much more important that any other island in the Hawaiian chain, except for Ohau, because it has a port which allows for a base stacking of 2 air units, and because it is put in supply from the adjacent sea area. The other islands in the chain needs their owner to put them in supply through the Hawaiian island sea area. You see what I mean ? That there are more possible bases in the Hawaiian chain is not a problem either, there are aready too much on the WiF FE map, there is no restrain.

This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships).

[Froonp]

The quick and dirty way to do this is to make them mountain terrain, since air units can not base in mountains. I guess we could add a new terrain type to cover this, but that would be a lot of work.

This was already done in some key island chains, such as the Bonin and the Marianas, where we nearly have the same number of possible places to base planes.

This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships).
I already said that ? [:D] Really ?

The only work it would need would be :
- Make the Graphic artist draw something recognisable, especially noting that only a small portion of that drawing will be shown, as 95% of the hex will be covered with water.
- Change the map data and transform some islands in Atoll. This I can do easily and gladly [:D].

[composer99]

Midway is about 25 hexes away from Honolulu, meaning it is too far (in WiF) for pretty well every land-based plane that is likely to see action in that area (I just checked the posted map on page 1 and counted hexes [:)]).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Midway is about 25 hexes away from Honolulu, meaning it is too far (in WiF) for pretty well every land-based plane that is likely to see action in that area (I just checked the posted map on page 1 and counted hexes [:)]).

You know as well as I know that what Midway brings is : one foot in the Hawaiian sea area. This foot through projected LBA air power and naval bases for SUBs.
Range to Honolulu is not the most important point, and I bet this was the same in WWII. Midway was a steping stone to threaten Honolulu, not simply to bombard it.

This said, Midway-Honolulu are 2,112 km far away, which means 25 hexes that are 84,48 km long.
Pretty much consistent with the rest of the map as far as the scale is.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The quick and dirty way to do this is to make them mountain terrain, since air units can not base in mountains. I guess we could add a new terrain type to cover this, but that would be a lot of work.

This was already done in some key island chains, such as the Bonin and the Marianas, where we nearly have the same number of possible places to base planes.

This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships).
I already said that ? [:D] Really ?

The only work it would need would be :
- Make the Graphic artist draw something recognisable, especially noting that only a small portion of that drawing will be shown, as 95% of the hex will be covered with water.
- Change the map data and transform some islands in Atoll. This I can do easily and gladly [:D].

There are more than a few rules that check terrain type.[;)] Every line of code that references terrain type would have to address the new type, if only to ignore it. That's a lot of code.

[marcuswatney]

This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships).

I would very much support this idea if somebody was willing to do the work. I especially like terrain rules that 'reward' the purchase of special units like seaplanes, as it gives the player some reason to invest in them.

The way WitP depicted atolls was to have one or more tiny irregular circles for the atoll itself, set in a slightly brown disc filling most of the hex. I don't think the disc was supposed to represent anything, but merely to draw the eye to it saying, "yeah, that's not a crumb from your bagel".

My copy of WitP is packed away somewhere in my roof-space, but if someone is willing to do the code-conversion work, I would be happy to try and find WitP and pass on the names of the atolls they identified.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
My copy of WitP is packed away somewhere in my roof-space, but if someone is willing to do the code-conversion work, I would be happy to try and find WitP and pass on the names of the atolls they identified.

Is it this map that you talk about ?
Or is your WitP another game ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The quick and dirty way to do this is to make them mountain terrain, since air units can not base in mountains. I guess we could add a new terrain type to cover this, but that would be a lot of work.

This was already done in some key island chains, such as the Bonin and the Marianas, where we nearly have the same number of possible places to base planes.

This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships).
I already said that ? [:D] Really ?

The only work it would need would be :
- Make the Graphic artist draw something recognisable, especially noting that only a small portion of that drawing will be shown, as 95% of the hex will be covered with water.
- Change the map data and transform some islands in Atoll. This I can do easily and gladly [:D].

There are more than a few rules that check terrain type.[;)] Every line of code that references terrain type would have to address the new type, if only to ignore it. That's a lot of code.

OK.
Even if we do not have a new terrain for atolls, I seriously doubt that we will have an issue with the islands of the Pacific.
As I said, for the most critical group of islands (Bonins & Marianas) I tried to have the number of hexes be the same in MWiF and WiF by making some of the extra ones mountains. But this was talked about a very long time ago.

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Is it this map that you talk about ?
Or is your WitP another game ?

WitP = War in the Pacific, the Grendal's Mother of monster games, published by SPI in the late seventies. It is so detailed and challenging that I have promised myself to start playing it for real (as opposed to just drooling over the map and the pieces) when I retire.

Nicky Palmer used to play it a lot, flying over to America to join a group of enthusiasts for a week of WitP. I could never afford the time.

I remember that it was so detailed that to build an airfield not only did you have to get an engineer to the island (none of this relaxed MWiF attitude that hexes have intrinsic airfields!) but you also had to get supplies there which the engineers would consume over several weeks. You could see exactly why the Americans didn't bother to invade Guadalcanal until the Japanese had almost completed their airstrip. Also, with no intrinsic airfields, the few like Guadalcanal really were worth fighting over.

I think it had weekly turns.

The game has been a collector's item for decades. In the eighties it was the most valuable board game on the secondhand market, in three figures even in those days (probably four now).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Is it this map that you talk about ?
Or is your WitP another game ?

WitP = War in the Pacific, the Grendal's Mother of monster games, published by SPI in the late seventies. It is so detailed and challenging that I have promised myself to start playing it for real (as opposed to just drooling over the map and the pieces) when I retire.

Nicky Palmer used to play it a lot, flying over to America to join a group of enthusiasts for a week of WitP. I could never afford the time.

I remember that it was so detailed that to build an airfield not only did you have to get an engineer to the island (none of this relaxed MWiF attitude that hexes have intrinsic airfields!) but you also had to get supplies there which the engineers would consume over several weeks. You could see exactly why the Americans didn't bother to invade Guadalcanal until the Japanese had almost completed their airstrip. Also, with no intrinsic airfields, the few like Guadalcanal really were worth fighting over.

I think it had weekly turns.

The game has been a collector's item for decades. In the eighties it was the most valuable board game on the secondhand market, in three figures even in those days (probably four now).

You actually caused me to go see if I own a copy. Sadly, it is one of the few SPI games that I do not own. I do have War in Europe, the predecessor to War in the Pacific and a couple of copies of War in the East (War in Europe's predecessor). We played War in the East so much we wore out the counters and the maps. All these games have 4 game turns per month with production done monthly - they also have fixed weather.

[marcuswatney]

Yes, SPI were never too strong on weather effects.  But I think it was that family of games (WitP, WitE, WitW) which introduced the production spiral, a brilliant visual aid which let you see immediately what lead time each unit to be constructed required to get them all coming off the stocks simultaneously.  Is MWiF going to have the same sort of visual depiction of units under construction?
 
I have War in the East (and War in the West) somewhere, but I was never too keen on them because the units were generic and rather banal.  For me GDW's Drang Nach Osten was the best East Front game - so much colour, and with good armour and anti-armour effects.  I had DNO mounted on the bedroom wall for a year or two and I remember my girlfriend saying that the Kola peninsula looked like Snoopy's nose (the map projection has made MWiF's Kola peninsula a bit too elongated).
 
Can't look at that place now without seeing a friendly beagle!

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Yes, Fire in the East has more detail, but it was a bear to set up. And the stacking density required steady hands holding the tweezers (I still own 4 sets of medical tweezers).

Here is how MWIF shows production - it is one of several 'pools' of units. Note that '1st' and '2nd' indicate whether the unit is in it first or second trip around the the production 'spiral'.

[brian brian]

we won't be able to look at the classic production spiral?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

we won't be able to look at the classic production spiral?

I assume as a player you are familiar with the main problem with the production spiral: large stacks of units.

This layout permits over 50 units to be viewed simultaneously without scrolling. I have been thinking about making it 4 rows high, which would change that number to around 70. You can also filter which units are displayed a zillion different ways (e.g., Allied air units only).

Besides the difficulties of drawing the spiral, showing a lot of units would not be possible. For example, the screen shot above only shows the Nov/Dec reinforcements in 1939. Once the US enters the war, the number of units produced increases enormously.

And while everyone likes looking at the large stack of reinforcements he has coming in each turn, I think that passion can be sated by looking at long lists equally well. As shown above, the Axis is bringing in 14 units to the Allies paltry 7.

[brian brian]

one solution in the paper game is to use two spirals, one Axis and one Allied

the paper spiral gets crowded because the size of it is fixed; computer screens with scroll bars are less prone to this problem

anyway, just another thing to get used to. I'm just about as content to read a list of what was produced each turn as to look at the spiral.

[fiveof6]

I realize I am extraordinarily late to the game, but here's what I know about Pago Pago.

Getting from the north side to the south would have been virtually impossible due to the spine of a mountain range that runs the length of the island from east to west. While the Tutuila (the name of the island that has Pago Pago) is 100% covered with foliage, the steepness of the mountain range is what would hamper operations the most.

In 1941, Pago Pago was administered by the US Navy as an American Territory. The eastern part of the Samoan Island chain was(is still) known as American Samoa. The islands that the British (New Zealanders) gained from Germany by the conclusion of WWI at the west end of the island chain was known as Western Samoa and in 1995 became "Independent State of Samoa."

Pago Pago is correctly depicted as mountain terrain, but the area should be called "American Samoa"

Kevin

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: fiveof6

I realize I am extraordinarily late to the game, but here's what I know about Pago Pago.

Getting from the north side to the south would have been virtually impossible due to the spine of a mountain range that runs the length of the island from east to west. While the Tutuila (the name of the island that has Pago Pago) is 100% covered with foliage, the steepness of the mountain range is what would hamper operations the most.

In 1941, Pago Pago was administered by the US Navy as an American Territory. The eastern part of the Samoan Island chain was(is still) known as American Samoa. The islands that the British (New Zealanders) gained from Germany by the conclusion of WWI at the west end of the island chain was known as Western Samoa and in 1995 became "Independent State of Samoa."

Pago Pago is correctly depicted as mountain terrain, but the area should be called "American Samoa"

Kevin

Welcome to the forum. [:)]

The strength of the game, especially the map, lies in the many contributions made by members of the forum. As always, I will let Patrice decide about changes to the map. Our goal is to make it as accurate as possible within the restirctions imposed by the scale and a few other considerations (game play being our other major concern).