Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

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JocMeister
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]Suggested HR change[/font]
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The discussion won´t die and Erik and I have been sending some emails back and forth. I suggested the following to him in an email:
Alternative 1:
Remove the HR and set a max altitude of ALL airplanes to 32k. That would give ALL airplanes access to the last MVR band and no plane able to dive on the other. This SHOULD be a fair solution and benefit the best planes and pilots. This of course negates the benefit of the Frank R version but it also removes if for the P47 and Hellcats/Bearcat and later Spits. This will add the much needed diversity for the allied plane pools. This I think is a very fair solution for both sides.

Alternative 2:
Keep the 2nd best MVR band but allow CAP and LRCAP to go at any altitude. This to negate the strato sweep. If I remember correctly you are using this HR in your game with Torsten?

In all honesty I think the first alternative is a very good one and fair for both sides. It will completely do away with the dive bonus and strato sweeps. The only problem I see here is that CAP can still climb above the sweeps if there is time. But as you know radar doesn´t work on sweeps (probably another reason its doing so well) and I have not seen this happen in any of my tests. And I have run perhaps 300-500 sweeps during the last week in sandbox. Its a fair compromise I think. I loose the P47s altitude advantage and later Spits and Hellcat/Bearcat while you lose the Frank. But it will be a boost for all other airframes. Including the IJN ones that lack any fighter with access to the MVR band.

This is perhaps not the best allied deal. But I feel its an important one nonetheless. This will spread the workload out among the allied pools and perhaps add a bit of competitiveness to planes like the P38 and P51. These are supposed to be the workhorses of the USAAF but with the current HR I lose them at a rate of 1:1 with top notch pilots in the P51. Thats simply not sustainable for the pools. It also completely do away with the allied max altitude advantage. But as I hadn´t even thought of that until recently its not something I´m going to miss and Erik has refused to do away with the HR we have now anyway.

I feel the 1st alternative returns the game to the old ways of Allied quality and Japanese quantity. I will still have an advantage in speed and pilot quality. This will also boost the IJN that lack a fighter with access to the highest MVR band. This should be a fair solution I think? Its a boost to the weaker allied planes but takes away something from the best allied planes. This I think is necessary in order for the allied pools to compete with the enhanced Japanese production.

Whatever it leads to it will remove the dive bonus and thats the real problem. Its so powerful it dwarfs everything else in the airmodel. As both Erik and I agree on this I don´t see why he shouldn´t think this a fair deal.

If he doesn´t I still have some P47s left and when using them in a layered CAP I can shoot down "R"s at a 10:1 ratio. So I just stay defensive until the P47N arrives and then sweep him out of the sky. Once the Bearcat arrives at 200 per month they can add to the pile together with the new Spits at 50 per months. Not very fun but it will do.
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princep01
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by princep01 »

Your loss of AK Nathaniel Currier via explosion in harbor is minor and of passing interest.  However, it would not be so inconsequential had it been another ship.  For instance, as some of you no-doubt know, the Japanese lost one of their 16" gun BBs (Mutsu) in this manner.  If I recall correctly, it was unstable cordite that destroyed Mutsu in harbor.  While the loss was attributed to unstable cordite, I suspect it was made unstable by a Japanese sailor sneaking a smoke.  Talk about the wrong place at the wrong time! 
JocMeister
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: princep01

Your loss of AK Nathaniel Currier via explosion in harbor is minor and of passing interest.  However, it would not be so inconsequential had it been another ship.  For instance, as some of you no-doubt know, the Japanese lost one of their 16" gun BBs (Mutsu) in this manner.  If I recall correctly, it was unstable cordite that destroyed Mutsu in harbor.  While the loss was attributed to unstable cordite, I suspect it was made unstable by a Japanese sailor sneaking a smoke.  Talk about the wrong place at the wrong time! 

Thats a cool story! Didn´t know that. A pretty big event to lose a BB in an accident rather than in combat. [X(] Guess the japanese wern´t too happy about that!
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catwhoorg
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by catwhoorg »

They cursed the coding and odd die rolls ?

Then asked for a HR modification...

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JocMeister
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

They cursed the coding and odd die rolls ?

Then asked for a HR modification...


Anyone knows if something like that actually happened in the game? I would certainly have become pretty gutted if that happened to a CV! [:D]
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

They cursed the coding and odd die rolls ?

Then asked for a HR modification...


Anyone knows if something like that actually happened in the game? I would certainly have become pretty gutted if that happened to a CV! [:D]

Not that, but I've lost CVs to a single bomb or torpedo.
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princep01
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by princep01 »

I am certain that such things can happen in the game.  In my game (now in mid-October, 1942) I have had two PT Boats run aground "on uncharted rocks" while traveling from Townsville to Cairns in shallow water.  In addition, two transports (one a precious AP, the other a xAK) hit rocks during a landing at Lae.  Fortunately, while the float damage to the AP was 80%, Lae fell unopposed and the ship is slowly recovering and might survive a transit to a good port facility.  The AK suffered less extensive hull dammage and was repaired at Brisbane.   This may be a function of how "prepared" the landing force was as the Lae landing was not prepared beyond about 30%.  However, the possible cause is just speculation on my part.  Nonetheless, these "events" have occurred.
 
I suspect there is a very small chance each day that a ship may suffer some sort of "accident" and a smaller chance still that the accident might be catastrophic.  In fact, I seem to remember reading this somewhere in the manual or developer's notes, but I am too lazy to go look for it.
 
It may be small comfort, but I have never heard of a capital ship going up in smoke by some random event in the game, but, frankly, such things did happen occassionally.  IMHO, it is cool the game may incorporate that uncertainty.
princep01
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by princep01 »

Mooseman, was the CV to the single hit an IJN or Allied ship?  I'm curious as I hit Akagi a long time ago with a single torp.  It is still listed as sunk, and I have not seen her since.  I harbored no expectation that the great vessel was really lost, but your comment makes me wonder. 
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: princep01

Mooseman, was the CV to the single hit an IJN or Allied ship?  I'm curious as I hit Akagi a long time ago with a single torp.  It is still listed as sunk, and I have not seen her since.  I harbored no expectation that the great vessel was really lost, but your comment makes me wonder. 

99.9% of the time it seems to be USS Enterprise. [:)]

FOW works whereby any hit by an Allied torpedo will usually "sink" anything. I've sunk Akagi up to four times in an AI game. It is the Japanese Enterprise I think.
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princep01
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by princep01 »

Moose, that is interesting about Big E.  In a perverse way it is hilarious.  My experience is that if Saratoga comes within 100 miles of a IJN sub, it will soak up a torp hit.  I have never lost her, but it is annoying, even if within the historical reality of that ship's history.
 
I guess I am glad that Big E has never taken a hit in my games.  Apparently she is constructed out of paper and wood!
 
Hummmm, so it is possible Akagi actually is lost.  That is very interesting (walks slowly away rubbing chin and lost in thought).
JocMeister
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by JocMeister »

I´ve lost more APAs to shoals then enemy fire! Usually they hit a reef during unloading and suffer 80 FLT damage and are picked off by enemy subs or air the following day. I think I lost 10 or so in the game. Perhaps 2 are pure combat losses.

Never seen that exploding stuff at the harbour before. Kind of funny that you can play this game for 6 years and still find new stuff! [:)]
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JocMeister
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: princep01

Moose, that is interesting about Big E.  In a perverse way it is hilarious.  My experience is that if Saratoga comes within 100 miles of a IJN sub, it will soak up a torp hit.  I have never lost her, but it is annoying, even if within the historical reality of that ship's history.

Isn´t that true for ANY allied CV? [:D] I think I had 6 or so hit by subs so far. Almost lost one with 88 FLT damage after two torps. Took almost 6 months to patch her up.
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princep01
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by princep01 »

Well, yes, as one can view a CV as a floating gas station packed full of explosives, I guess it is not surprising to see how fragile they could be even when built on a BB hull.  A hit in the wrong place and BOOM!, there goes the Lady Lex.
 
However, while this is true of early war Allied CVs, it must be said that the Essex and later models were actually quite hard to sink.  I have never progressed far enough in the game to see if it reflects the tough quality of the Essex class.  While a couple of Essex class CVs were damaged so badly as to be lost for the remainder of the war (Bunker Hill comes to mind), no Essex class was ever sunk.
JocMeister
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by JocMeister »

I have had two hit by torps. The first one was the mentioned 88 FLT damage one. I also had Bunker Hill hit by 2(?) torps recently. Might have been just 1 TT and a couple of bombs. Its in the AAR somewhere. Battle for Celebes sea! 40 days in the yard for that. So it looks like the good ol role of the dice still makes the biggest call. [:)]
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: princep01

Moose, that is interesting about Big E.  In a perverse way it is hilarious.  My experience is that if Saratoga comes within 100 miles of a IJN sub, it will soak up a torp hit.  I have never lost her, but it is annoying, even if within the historical reality of that ship's history.

I guess I am glad that Big E has never taken a hit in my games.  Apparently she is constructed out of paper and wood!

Hummmm, so it is possible Akagi actually is lost.  That is very interesting (walks slowly away rubbing chin and lost in thought).

In both of my PBEM games I have lost Enterprise. In the non-AARed one in December 1941 to a sub far south of the Hawaiian Islands. From minor damage.

I have also lost Saratoga coming out of San Diego in the first two months of the war. That time I think it was four torpedoes hitting. Instantly sunk. I wouldn't put it past the devs to have a juicer on the odds for that egress.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I have had two hit by torps. The first one was the mentioned 88 FLT damage one. I also had Bunker Hill hit by 2(?) torps recently. Might have been just 1 TT and a couple of bombs. Its in the AAR somewhere. Battle for Celebes sea! 40 days in the yard for that. So it looks like the good ol role of the dice still makes the biggest call. [:)]

I lost USS Stonewall Jackson, an Essex, to kamis in one AI game. Got swarmed. It's hard, but they do sink.
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JocMeister
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by JocMeister »

I think it was SqzMyLemon who lost a Jap CV to single torpedo early in the war. Was hit by one TT but it started a very small fire. I think it was just 5 or something. Burned and sank after a very long time.

I don´t think have lost a single ship to fire yet. Its always the flooding that does it.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I think it was SqzMyLemon who lost a Jap CV to single torpedo early in the war. Was hit by one TT but it started a very small fire. I think it was just 5 or something. Burned and sank after a very long time.

I don´t think have lost a single ship to fire yet. Its always the flooding that does it.

I've probably lost 15 to fire in my game with Mike so far. A lot of dice rolls, but also the crew, the era, the location. A big port with naval support and you have a chance. I have scuttled several burning ships just to give the other burning ship, which was less on fire, full access to whatever the port had to offer.
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JocMeister
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I think it was SqzMyLemon who lost a Jap CV to single torpedo early in the war. Was hit by one TT but it started a very small fire. I think it was just 5 or something. Burned and sank after a very long time.

I don´t think have lost a single ship to fire yet. Its always the flooding that does it.

I've probably lost 15 to fire in my game with Mike so far. A lot of dice rolls, but also the crew, the era, the location. A big port with naval support and you have a chance. I have scuttled several burning ships just to give the other burning ship, which was less on fire, full access to whatever the port had to offer.

Hmm, never thought of that. Good stuff!
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I think it was SqzMyLemon who lost a Jap CV to single torpedo early in the war. Was hit by one TT but it started a very small fire. I think it was just 5 or something. Burned and sank after a very long time.

I don´t think have lost a single ship to fire yet. Its always the flooding that does it.

I've probably lost 15 to fire in my game with Mike so far. A lot of dice rolls, but also the crew, the era, the location. A big port with naval support and you have a chance. I have scuttled several burning ships just to give the other burning ship, which was less on fire, full access to whatever the port had to offer.

Hmm, never thought of that. Good stuff!

Tracker helps see the trend. Rolls can reverse up to a point, but fire kills Systems too and they work together. Less Systems you have the less fire-fighting. If you have 80 System damage and 70 Fires, she's a goner. Avoid losing the full VPs and scuttle for the point break.
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