Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If you want to close the hexsides you'll have to cross the river (and shock on each hexside). There is no other way to isolate a hex completely if it is already occupied by enemy forces.

I was afraid of that. Looks like 4 of the US EABs in the area suddenly had their life expectancy drop dramatically all of the sudden! [:D]

[witpqs]

You can be the only side with a unit in the adjacent hex instead of actually crossing the hex side. Consider that each hex has its own hex sides. So, that means each hex boundary has two hex sides, one that is part of each adjacent hex.

Let's use Pegu (the hex east of Rangoon) as an example of a siege of Rangoon. Let's say that defender owns the east hex side of the Rangoon hex. Pegu is unoccupied. Now, attacker moves a unit into Pegu. That means attacker (the only player in the hex) owns all six hex sides in Pegu. As far as the boundary between Rangoon and Pegu, the defender owns the Rangoon side and the attacker owns the Pegu side. Supply will not pass because you must own both halves of the boundary between the hexes.

Next the defender moves a relief force (unit) up from Moulmein. The unit enters Pegu, which gives the defender ownership of the SE side of the Pegu hex. Supply still will not pass because that boundary between Rangoon and Pegu because the boundary between them is still not fully owned by the defender. To get supply moving, the defender would have to A) evict the attacker from Pegu, or B) move a unit from Rangoon to Pegu via that boundary, thereby taking ownership of that hex side within Pegu.

So if the attacker gets there first, they can sit as a blocking force and require the defender to somehow change things.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You can be the only side with a unit in the adjacent hex instead of actually crossing the hex side. Consider that each hex has its own hex sides. So, that means each hex boundary has two hex sides, one that is part of each adjacent hex.

Let's use Pegu (the hex east of Rangoon) as an example of a siege of Rangoon. Let's say that defender owns the east hex side of the Rangoon hex. Pegu is unoccupied. Now, attacker moves a unit into Pegu. That means attacker (the only player in the hex) owns all six hex sides in Pegu. As far as the boundary between Rangoon and Pegu, the defender owns the Rangoon side and the attacker owns the Pegu side. Supply will not pass because you must own both halves of the boundary between the hexes.

Next the defender moves a relief force (unit) up from Moulmein. The unit enters Pegu, which gives the defender ownership of the SE side of the Pegu hex. Supply still will not pass because that boundary between Rangoon and Pegu because the boundary between them is still not fully owned by the defender. To get supply moving, the defender would have to A) evict the attacker from Pegu, or B) move a unit from Rangoon to Pegu via that boundary, thereby taking ownership of that hex side within Pegu.

So if the attacker gets there first, they can sit as a blocking force and require the defender to somehow change things.

Using you example the defender in Rangoon is still free to move to the Pegu hex right? Because he "owns" the Rangoon hex so he is free to move out of it however he wants.

This is what I want to avoid. Erik has 2000 AV in Bangkok and I don´t want to guard 5 possible escape routes. I want to close the hexsides so he can´t move out Rangoon. And the only way to do that is to "sucide cross" the river from each possible way out from Bangkok. Right?

[Lokasenna]

If you control the hexes outside of it though, they won't be able to retreat. You just have to hold the hexes. Which can be hard.

[witpqs]

Right - he could move from Rangoon to Pegu. If you want to actually own all the hex sides for a given hex that you are not the sole occupier of, then you must move into that hex across each of the enemy-owned hex sides.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you control the hexes outside of it though, they won't be able to retreat. You just have to hold the hexes. Which can be hard.

Even just having a unit in a hex stops an enemy from retreating into that hex, regardless of hex side ownership.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you control the hexes outside of it though, they won't be able to retreat. You just have to hold the hexes. Which can be hard.

Yes, Because some of them are in clear terrain and there are 5 of them! I´m not too keen on having a 6-8.000 AV garrison surrounding 2000 AV inside Bangkok! [:D]

[witpqs]

Don't bother to guard the ones where you would be happy tot have them retreat. How about the swamps to the left, for example?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Don't bother to guard the ones where you would be happy tot have them retreat. How about the swamps to the left, for example?

True that. I would still feel a bit more comfortable if he couldn´t move around. And losing 4 small EABs at this stage ins´t that bad. Well, its not good but you know what I mean. [:)]

[witpqs]

Using EAB to flip a hex side against a massive army - I would just feel dirty after doing that!

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]16-18th December -44[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

An unexpected turn of events today! [X(]

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Thailand
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So, lets start with the big news. As I wrote in my last post Erik superstack has stopped moving since a few days back. Turns out he has been flying in supply to it. And he shock attacked. [X(]

I did not see that one coming...so I had moved out a bunch of troops to the NW to cover the next position when he shifted hex...

Ground combat at 55,59 (near Tavoy)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 168715 troops, 2013 guns, 2438 vehicles, Assault Value = 5414

Defending force 79249 troops, 1291 guns, 968 vehicles, Assault Value = 2381

Japanese adjusted assault: 430

Allied adjusted defense: 5857

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 13

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
28212 casualties reported [X(]
Squads: 366 destroyed, 1920 disabled
Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 141 disabled
Engineers: 49 destroyed, 203 disabled
Guns lost 155 (21 destroyed, 134 disabled)
Vehicles lost 255 (81 destroyed, 174 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
664 casualties reported
Squads: 10 destroyed, 93 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 63 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 11 disabled
Guns lost 96 (7 destroyed, 89 disabled)
Vehicles lost 68 (4 destroyed, 64 disabled)

Assaulting units:
16th Division
24th Ind.Mixed Brigade
79th Brigade
22nd Tank Regiment
5th Division
33rd Division
18th Division
2nd Guards Division
55th Division
39th Division
2nd Division
38th Division
2nd Tank Division
21st Division
3rd Tank Division
29th Ind.Mixed Brigade
75th Infantry Brigade
1st Ind.Mixed Regiment
19th Army
34th Field AA Battalion
10th RF Gun Battalion
1st RF Gun Battalion
25th Army
14th Mortar Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
32nd Field AA Battalion
38th Field AA Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
56th Field AA Battalion
2nd Army
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
70th Field AA Battalion
11th RF Gun Battalion
5th Mortar Battalion
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
11th Mortar Battalion
17th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Army
28th Army
51st Field AA Battalion
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd RF Gun Battalion
33rd Road Const Co
68th Field AA Battalion
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
2nd Area Army
49th AA Machinecannon Company
8th RF Gun Battalion
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
40th Field AA Battalion
69th Field AA Battalion
10th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Burma Area Army
14th RF Gun (Pack) Battalion
43rd Const Co
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
52nd Field AA Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
1st Air Defense AA Regiment
2nd Medium Mortar Battalion
3rd Mortar Battalion
27th Fld AA Gun Co
1st Art.Mortar Regiment
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
21st AA Regiment
39th Field AA Battalion
115th AA Regiment
20th AA Regiment
50th Field AA Battalion
7th JAAF Base Force

Defending units:
77th Chindit Brigade
14th Indian Division
9th Indian Division
26th Indian Division
111th Chindit Brigade
11th (East African) Division
2nd New Chinese Corps
33rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
8th Medium Regiment
X' Force
8th Belfast Heavy Regiment
86th Medium Regiment
NCAC
6th Medium Regiment
24th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
6th Mixed A/T Mtr Regiment
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
87th Medium Regiment
28th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
XXXIII Indian Corps
Provisional GMC Grp

Makes me pretty glad I kept the 4Es pounding and pounding. Kudos to Erik for trying. Without a doubt this was a deathblow to his stack and I´m going to leave them there to feed on each other until nothing is left of it. [:)]

This couldn´t have happened at a better time. The 3500 AV on the East side of his stack immediately set off towards Bangkok. It will be 2,5 week before they get there though. They will take over the siege of Bangkok. Another 1500 AV worth of Indian divisions also set off towards central Thailand. I´ll leave the Chinese to deal whats left while we move for Indochina.

Bangkok turned out to be a tougher nut then expected. Looks like Erik has decided to make a stand here. No movement out so far. I have a US corp on the East side and a Indian/British corps on the West side. I will not invest in Bangkok right now.

Ground combat at Bangkok (56,62)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 70917 troops, 1319 guns, 943 vehicles, Assault Value = 3037

Defending force 80874 troops, 851 guns, 523 vehicles, Assault Value = 1933

Japanese ground losses:
72 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
303 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 19 (4 destroyed, 15 disabled)
Vehicles lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Assaulting units:
XXXIII Corps Engineer Battalion
XV Corps Engineer Battalion
209th Combat Engineer Battalion
41st Infantry Division
I Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
18th British Division
IV Corps Engineer Battalion
2nd British Division
36th British Division
6th Australian Division
9th Australian Division
Southeast Asia
2/9th Field Regiment
2/11th Field Regiment
XV Indian Corps
2/13th Field Regiment

Defending units:
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
4th Ind.Mixed Regiment
6th Ind.Infantry Brigade
35th Ind.Mixed Brigade
9th Division
2nd INA Gandhi Regiment
48th Division
36th Ind.Mixed Brigade
4th Division
4th South Seas Det.
33rd Road Const Co /1
87th JAAF AF Bn
65th Construction Battalion
21st Field AF Construction Battalion
39th Army
33rd Army
17th JAAF AF Bn
61st Construction Battalion
14th Base Force
Southern Army
72nd JAAF AF Bn
21st Air Defense AA Battalion
13th JAAF Base Force
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion
9th Air Division
54th Const Co
23rd JNAF AF Unit
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion
30th JAAF Base Force
12th Field AF Construction Battalion
82nd JAAF AF Bn
11th Shipping Engineer Regiment
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
67th JNAF AF Unit
23rd AA Rgt /2

Behind high forts and x2 terrain I don´t want to slog it out. The Chinese can do that later.

For the first time in probably 2 months I stood the 4Es in Burma down. They will probably be out for 2 weeks now doing maintenance.

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Luzon
------------------------
The reinforcement part is now done. Tomorrow the last unit will unload. Its now time to repeat the process with BFs and engineers. I have some 15 engineer units that will shuttle in the same way. One at a time under heavy CAP and fragments left at Iloilo.

I also made a pretty big decision concerning Luzon. More on that tomorrow.

A small band of bombers paid Northern Luzon a visit for the first time. I want Erik to bunch up with everything in Manila. Some sweeps were followed by the bombers.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 17, 44
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Morning Air attack on Aparri , at 82,73

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 48 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 15

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Aparri , at 82,73

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 27
B-25D1 Mitchell x 67
B-25G Mitchell x 6
B-25H Mitchell x 18
B-25J1 Mitchell x 15
B-25J11 Mitchell x 15
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 4 destroyed on ground
B6N2a Jill: 7 destroyed on ground
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 3 damaged
B-25D1 Mitchell: 2 damaged
B-25J1 Mitchell: 2 damaged
B-25J11 Mitchell: 1 damaged

I of course forgot to up the altitude as usual and it cost me a bunch of 4Es. [8|] 50 bombers are destroyed on the ground though. Lets see if every plane on Luzon shows up in Manila tomorrow! [:D]

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Strategic bombing
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Another raid is going in over the HI tomorrow. 110 B29s are set to hit Nagoya. I´m going to experiment a bit with altitude in the coming weeks. I always go in at 9k. Erik has probably not missed that. I´m thinking perhaps I can dodge a few of the NFs going higher or lower. Have to watch the Flak down low though. Going to be a lot of shifting targets here. I don´t want to run into a massed NF cap yet. Only have 6 B29s in the pools. Have to be very careful.

Also going to start bombing the LI on Formosa. Its 80 in total on the Island. I want him to have to ship it from the HI if he wants to stay in supply.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Using EAB to flip a hex side against a massive army - I would just feel dirty after doing that!

Well, in the real world I wouldn´t have do 4 river crossing to surround his troops in Bangkok. The hexside system is what it is. I used a small 100 AV BDE to halt the superstack with 5500 AV a few weeks ago. It sucks but it goes both ways and can be used and manipulated equally by both sides.

I´m not going to wreck 4 divisions sealing off Bangkok thats for sure. [:)]

What do people think? I using EABs for this knowing they will be crushed in the crossing not Kosher? I set this up in a sandbox and using proper combat regiments they were all destroyed. Not damaged or disabled. Simply destroyed. "poof" gone. I tested it with IDs and while they survived the actually crossing they were absolutely gutted. Probably out for the rest of the war.

I hadn´t considered this could be something despicable though so I would love to hear what people think. Can´t really ask Erik without giving away too much. Consider this too: What if it wasn´t a river crossing and I used an EAB to close the hexside?

[Bullwinkle58]

The hexside system is what it is. Completely artificial and conceptual. And equal to both sides.

The better question to me is, if not an EAB then what WOULD be sufficient and why? What's the lower limit and on what parameters? In supply? A leadership cut-off? A morale or disruption cut-off? You get into spiraling debates on things like this. Just play the rules.

[witpqs]

You can get into a spiraling debate about many things, but you don't have to. [:)]

[princep01]

Hummm, I am surely missing something here, but why are the Bankokograd hexsides so important to you.  Given the large group of nasties (Jungleograd) still in your rear, straving though they are, I'd liquidate these crumps before worrying so much about Bankokograd.  You have Bangkokograd interdicted.  Any movement, by land or sea, is subject to sub and air interdiction inflicting much grief.  I'd even consider leaving a hex open (of your choosing) to allow him to leave.  Otherwise, I'd kill off the nuisance to the rear and move an infantry force with mucho AA and artillery into Bangkokograd from the adjacent city and commence making life in Bangkok most unpleasant.  I would suggest not throwing awway units, but rather a seige like approach.  if he takes the "escape" gambit, all the better.

Man, joc, I congratulate you on cutting off 12 divisions and many support units in the middle of nowheresville.  I was hired by Zhukov and Stalin to sue you for stealing pages from their recent book, How I Dicked Hitler at Stalingrad, but I decide to take a pass on that job.  Nicely done.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You can get into a spiraling debate about many things, but you don't have to. [:)]

We are in violent agreement. [;)]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: princep01

Hummm, I am surely missing something here, but why are the Bankokograd hexsides so important to you.  Given the large group of nasties (Jungleograd) still in your rear, straving though they are, I'd liquidate these crumps before worrying so much about Bankokograd.  You have Bangkokograd interdicted.  Any movement, by land or sea, is subject to sub and air interdiction inflicting much grief.  I'd even consider leaving a hex open (of your choosing) to allow him to leave.  Otherwise, I'd kill off the nuisance to the rear and move an infantry force with mucho AA and artillery into Bangkokograd from the adjacent city and commence making life in Bangkok most unpleasant.  I would suggest not throwing awway units, but rather a seige like approach.  if he takes the "escape" gambit, all the better.

Man, joc, I congratulate you on cutting off 12 divisions and many support units in the middle of nowheresville.  I was hired by Zhukov and Stalin to sue you for stealing pages from their recent book, How I Dicked Hitler at Stalingrad, but I decide to take a pass on that job.  Nicely done.

I assumed he just said it wrong and really meant Rangoonistan.

[Quixote]

What do people think? I using EABs for this knowing they will be crushed in the crossing not Kosher? I set this up in a sandbox and using proper combat regiments they were all destroyed. Not damaged or disabled. Simply destroyed. "poof" gone. I tested it with IDs and while they survived the actually crossing they were absolutely gutted. Probably out for the rest of the war.

I hadn´t considered this could be something despicable though so I would love to hear what people think. Can´t really ask Erik without giving away too much. Consider this too: What if it wasn´t a river crossing and I used an EAB to close the hexside?

Objectively - I'm with Bullwinkle. It's a game.
Subjectively - I'm with witpqs. This isn't something I'd do unless I felt I had no choice. That said, it's a game. Do what you have to.
Lastly - I know it's been a month, but does anyone else remember how obvert (over) reacted the last time a small unit crossed a river into a big stack? tm.asp?m=3403798

[JocMeister]

Hey guys. Thanks a bunch for the feedback!

I´ll ponder this for a few days. But if I don´t seal of the hexsides I have only two options.
-Either a direct assault on the city. This I don´t want to as it would cost me loads of casualties in a battle I don´t want. I don´t even need or want Bangkok.
-Isolate it without closing the hexsides which would require a massive amount of troops. 2 clear hexes and 2 wood hexes. Thats probably 8000 AV needed to seal it off. No way.

I don´t want any of that. I want to leave the city to rot. In the real war I wouldn´t have to do 4 separate river crossings to seal the city off. I wouldn´t need to do a single one. The question I keep asking myself is: If it hadn´t been a river crossing and I closed the hexsides using HQ units and whatever. No one would object?

And I cant just leave 2000 AV including some good combat units in my rear while advancing on Indochina. As I said I´ll continue to ponder this but gamey or not I think I´m going to close those hexsides. Both Erik and I have used the hexside system to our advantage throughout the game. He used it to block the entire allied army in Burma for two years for example. And I used it to contain his superstack. Its just an integral part of the game.

ORIGINAL: princep01

Hummm, I am surely missing something here, but why are the Bankokograd hexsides so important to you.  Given the large group of nasties (Jungleograd) still in your rear, straving though they are, I'd liquidate these crumps before worrying so much about Bankokograd.  You have Bangkokograd interdicted.  Any movement, by land or sea, is subject to sub and air interdiction inflicting much grief.  I'd even consider leaving a hex open (of your choosing) to allow him to leave.  Otherwise, I'd kill off the nuisance to the rear and move an infantry force with mucho AA and artillery into Bangkokograd from the adjacent city and commence making life in Bangkok most unpleasant.  I would suggest not throwing awway units, but rather a seige like approach.  if he takes the "escape" gambit, all the better.

Man, joc, I congratulate you on cutting off 12 divisions and many support units in the middle of nowheresville.  I was hired by Zhukov and Stalin to sue you for stealing pages from their recent book, How I Dicked Hitler at Stalingrad, but I decide to take a pass on that job.  Nicely done.

Thank you princep! [:)]

I´m not going to kill the troops in the superstack. I´m going to leave them there to rot. [:)] Atleast for a couple of months. If I kill them off Erik is just going to buy them back and use them to boost the defenses around the HI. Better to have them in the jungles of Thailand! [:'(]

Same with the stack at Bangkok. I don´t want to kill them off and I don´t want Bangkok. I just wan´t to contain them and leave them there. Thats why I´m so anxious about the hexsides. I want to go to Indochina ASAP.

ORIGINAL: Quixote

Objectively - I'm with Bullwinkle. It's a game.
Subjectively - I'm with witpqs. This isn't something I'd do unless I felt I had no choice. That said, it's a game. Do what you have to.
Lastly - I know it's been a month, but does anyone else remember how obvert (over) reacted the last time a small unit crossed a river into a big stack? tm.asp?m=3403798

Hmm, I forgot that thread. Thanks for reminding me. But I hope Erik sees this a bit differently. He is hard to predict. Sometimes he shrugs things off with a simple "Hey that the game" and sometimes he blows up for things I could never imagine.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]19th December -44[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Another quiet turn.


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Thailand
------------------------
Erik paradrops the empty Ayuthia. Stupid mistake by me. Luckily no units were on the rail and its another 5 days or so before the first units can use it. I moved an ID back from Bangkok to deal with this and they will arrive in two days.

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Strategic bombing
------------------------
The Nagoya strike turns out to be a complete debacle. Only 40 of the 110 B29s arrive over target. They only cause 2700 fires. 8 are lost to NFs. A 20% loss ratio. This can not be maintained for the miniscule gains.. [:(]

Whoever thinks NFs are underpowered needs to check again...

The Takao strike goes alot better creating 140k fires. But in the morning only 2 LI of the 40 is destroyed. [:(]

On the positive side I finally found the first NF factory! This will be a prime target. No idea how many there is though.