Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

Well I don’t really see the point of buying a book – especially one as pricey as this – only to then read selected parts of the book. What I think we are disagreeing about is that this ridiculous statement is in the conclusion (or anywhere else frankly). It’s just a cheap shot, useful for getting the dumb ‘propaganda’ word in.

But anyways....

.......what about the rest of the conclusions?

We’ve looked at the argument that the British (and apparently the Italians too) did not need to be fighting in the Mediterranean or along the North African Coast or the Middle East or……..

We’ve looked at the argument that the Italians, with apparently only limited assistance from Germany (and whose assistance by definition had no detrimental effect on the main German war effort because every day fighting as they were was a victory for the Reich) held off the British main effort.

So now we come to:
The reasons why the mid-June 1942 convoys failed are not to be found in a laundry list of things this admiral or that general failed to do or did poorly.


Well actually it kind of is…. There are of course other factors to take into account, but there is absolutely no reason to dismiss human error – although this is essential if one is trying to prove the point that O’Hara is trying to make. The fact is, the British made more mistakes than the Italians, and some of the decisions made by Admiral Harwood, Rear Admiral Vian and Vice Admiral Curteis can be looked at and judged critically.
The mid-June 1942 battles are as much the story of Italian success (Note that despite the fact that in the campaign as a whole as well as in the June convoys themselves, the Germans caused more losses, they have magically disappeared from the story once again) as they are of British failure.

Ignoring the removal of the Germans from the picture, there is of course some merit in this statement. It is clear that there was some improvement in Italian performance compared to the comparative ease with which the British kept Malta re-supplied before. In appraising the Italian Armed forces it has to be remembered though that the Royal Navy had been seriously weakened over time – and that that weakening was in the main down to the Germans, not the Italians.
The results of the mid-June battles suggests that the Regia Marina had, since 1940, evolved faster than the Royal Navy and was, by mid-1941, demonstrating skills on a par with, or even superior to, its enemy.

That’s a bold statement to make on the basis of victory in one operation, and a statement that is even more difficult to support with the facts. Yes the Italians, like all combatants, would learn from bitter experience of war. Could it be that some of these new found skills that the RM evidenced during the battle were actually what they should have been doing for the previous two years? Far from overtaking the RN, it could be argued they were still struggling to catch up in certain areas.

As has been said before, the RM had many advantages and one of the strongest was their central position in the Mediterranean from where they could pick their targets and switch between the eastern and western basin as circumstances dictated. They are to be congratulated on using this advantage in June 1942. The plan originally was to engage in the West, but intelligence identified the convoy in the east as being larger and so Iachino headed east instead.

O’Hara states that the light forces, that had performed generally poorly until now, were much better. That may be so, but despite all the considerable advantages held by the Italians, as the Harpoon and the later Pedestal convoys entered the Straits, the fact is that neither were finished off by their enemy. The British convoys should have been utterly destroyed but neither were. For part of the reason for this, see Aerial-Naval co-operation below.

O’Hara has written short summary paragraphs under the following headings: Command and Planning, Intelligence, Communications, Experience, Aerial-Naval Co-operation, Intangibles and finishes with The sum of their actions.

I have no wish to go through each as frankly I don’t think there is any real need. I’ll start with the notion that the British essentially held the Italian Armed Forces in low esteem and were victims of their own ‘propaganda’. Command and planning can fit within this section too I think.

So the British were beaten during this operation - that is a fact. Was this really because of contempt for their Italian enemy or was there any evidence that the British actually prepared for the operation in a sensible fashion - within the limitations of the dwindling resources they had available?

Firstly there was timing of the operation. There was not much they could do about that as Malta needed re-supply. Such was the stretched resources of the RN they could not do everything. To try and supply Malta earlier would mean postponing convoys to the USSR (the Germans were about to start their 1942 offensive) or postponing Madagascar (not wise with Japan now in the war). So there is nothing in the timing to suggest they were not taking the Italians seriously – just that priorities needed to be picked as not everything was capable of being done at once.

Okay, so what is the evidence that they did not bother to take the Italians seriously?

Well it is very easy to say that the British were content to rely on what had worked before – and O’Hara uses that as a negative. There are two points to make here. Firstly there is a saying – if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, and given the successes in reinforcing Malta in 1940 and 1941 why should the British necessarily decide that June 1942 is when the RM will finally wake up? Nice use of hindsight. O'Hara does make a valid point about weather and the 2nd Battle of Sirte, but even so, this doesn't mean the British have the luxury of abandoning the political decision to save Malta. Secondly there is the more pertinent question – did the British even take that view?

Well the evidence suggests otherwise. The British were limited in what they could deploy of course. The need to protect the Arctic, the Atlantic, the Mediterranean and the Indian Ocean (plus a small Pacific Ocean presence) with a navy that had been at war for almost three years and had lost 3 fleet carriers, 5 battleships and countless cruisers and destroyers meant that they were not exactly flush with options. Factor in the number of ships that were in repair from damage and those that, by 1942, had tipped over the obsolescent scale, and the picture was pretty grim. Added to this was the fact that the Germans were now operating from airfields in western Egypt, and denying them to the British. But Malta needed re-supply and that meant trying to run convoys to the island. What about the carriers from the Eastern Fleet? O’Hara mentions a quote from Admiral Somerville which suggests the Admiral did not want to send his carriers against the Axis aircraft. I suspect this brief comment does not tell the whole story – but stated in the way it is in the book there is only one conclusion to be drawn - and its not positive. However in 1942, thanks to the entrance of Japan into the war, the Indian Ocean trade route – and the link to India and Australia came properly under threat (merchant shipping losses went from 73,000 tons (1941) to 724,000 tons (1942) and the British feared the Japanese would adopt merchant raiding. There was therefore a reason for carriers to be in the Indian Ocean – not to mention that two of those three had only just been released from the Invasion of Madagascar operation a month before. It would also appear strange that, if the RN were afraid all of a sudden to lose carriers (as the Somerville quote is designed to have us believe), why were Eagle and Argus used in Harpoon (and of course both of these plus Ark Royal and Illustrious used on numerous convoy operations previously)? Why would an apparently available carrier not be used without good reason? As for the battleships, if the Japanese were to adopt surface raiding then HMS Warspite was the only ‘fast’ battleship available in the Indian Ocean to counter – the other options were the unmodernised and totally unsuitable R-class which, unsurprisingly, were not really worth considering.

So given that the RN did not have what it properly needed, what did the planners do? Well from April it ran five aircraft re-supply operations to Malta to build up air forces for Harpoon and Vigorous. Torpedo planes were deployed on the island in addition to fighter aircraft – these would only be needed against surface forces (despite O’Hara stating that the British did not take the RM seriously). Bombers would target airfields and ports before the convoy operation too. A submarine screen was deployed to try and weaken the surface threat too. Aware that Italian small craft were a threat, the British planned to take their own MTB’s (although as O’Hara recounts, this proved a failure). The newly forming Eastern Fleet was raided for cruisers and destroyers and minesweepers were included to deal with minefields laid off Malta. So as is plain to see, the British can hardly be accused of not preparing in an objective view of the steps taken. That some of these preparations failed to work in the heat of battle is true, but that does not negate the fact that the British put in place measures to try and ensure success of the operation….

The final point I want to touch on is Aerial-Naval Co-operation. O’Hara is critical of both sides performance here, although he states that Italian co-operation was adequate. However, this is not a view shared by Bagnasco… or, far more importantly, the Italian Navy in 1942.

As Bagnasco writes: ….they were however strongly impressed by British air reconnaissance and by the effectiveness of the torpedo aircraft and bombers, while Italo-German air cover and reconnaissance offered no convincing performance, especially during the day of the 15th. Two months later this impression heavily conditioned the response to Operation Pedestal as Supermarina did not show the same resolve in the use of its major units (this time limited only to cruisers). And in effect by mounting air attacks against the Italian naval forces, Malta had demonstrated a new offensive capability after months of paralysis, which even the modest contribution of Operation ‘Harpoon’ managed to strengthen in the coming months.

So thanks to improvements in their own performance and thanks to some poor errors of judgement by the British commanders (combined with some sloppy operational errors) the Axis forces had defeated the British during Harpoon (partially)/Vigorous (totally). So if, as O’Hara states, the RM had turned a corner, the proof of the pudding would be Pedestal. Get that right and Malta would be starved into submission. What happened? Well as alluded to above, the performance of the RAF on Malta during the June convoy and the lack of adequate aerial-naval co-operation convinced Supermarina that the Littorios should stay at home. As mentioned much earlier in this thread, this was not a result of no oil (oil could and should have been found for such a critical operation).

But it is not just about the capital ships being ordered to stay in port. The Italian 3rd and 7th Cruiser Divisions, having been ordered to sea were then ordered to return to base through fear of British aircraft and an inability of Axis air forces to counter.

Subsequently the British once again suffered badly in the straits thanks to improved performance from Italian small craft and submarines, but the chance to finish them off was not taken thanks in large part to this withdrawal order. Worse for the Italians was that after ordering the cruisers back to base having achieved nothing but burning up precious oil, two of them were damaged by torpedoes from a British submarine (and one never put to sea again). Evidence of a new improved Supermarina performance or the same muddled thinking and lack of resolve that had been in evidence for the last two years? One other point to make here is that yes, despite not inflicting any damage themselves, it was the presence of Iachino's ships that caused the British commanders to make their own muddled decisions and ultimately withdraw the Vigorous convoy. But by the time they did, it was a) thanks largely to German aircraft that that convoy had been mauled and b) thanks largely to German aircraft that AA ammunition was considered dangerously low.

So to summarise, the June convoy operation - essentially two convoys but one operation – was but one of a large number of convoy operations during the Mediterranean War. From the British perspective this operation was an undoubted failure (although Harpoon provided at least some vital relief to Malta) but O’Hara is making it out to be so much more. If what he says is true then the June convoys would have been just the start and the August convoy (Pedestal) would also have been a failure and Malta would have surrendered. This didn’t happen. Yes Italian performance in some areas was strong, but Italian failings continued to compromise the chance of a stunning victory - and as much as O'Hara wants to ignore it, the German contribution was vital.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Orm

Very interesting discussion. [&o] Thank you. Much for me to ponder on. [:)]

xxxxx

However. One minor detail distracted me somewhat in some of the posts. I think referencing to a Minor Non-commissioned Officer instead of using his name is confusing and distracting. Especially since I suspect the it was used as a derogatory term and therefore, in my humble opinion, lessens the argument made.

warspite1

Not meant in a derogatory way. Both Napoleon and Hitler are known as 'Little Corporals'. In the case of Napoleon this is most certainly not a derogatory term - but one to celebrate his achievements at such a lowly rank. In the case of Hitler, this was his highest rank in the army - and he was referred to as such in the film Battle of Britain (about 2:25) when referring to his (and Napoleon's) attempts to invade the UK. I believe he was referred to as such in mocking terms by members of the German Army.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymFSzyTqfe0
1) I do not mind the terms as such. I just felt it distracted from the serious points you were making. Although, with hindsight, I suppose it might havev been made to lighten up a 'heavy' text.

2) When Napoleon got the endearment he had not a low rank. He was commanding the Army in Italy.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Well I don’t really see the point of buying a book – especially one as pricey as this – only to then read selected parts of the book.
I felt obliged to ask as, in your comments, you didn't know the point O'Hara was making about British planning assumptions and had come up with your own.
Which you then used to criticize him over. It's an odd way to review his work.
What I think we are disagreeing about is that this ridiculous statement is in the conclusion (or anywhere else frankly). It’s just a cheap shot, useful for getting the dumb ‘propaganda’ word in.
No, we're not disagreeing about that as I made no comment on whether O'Hara was right or wrong. What I was commenting on was that you had
originally said this -
ORIGINAL: warspite1
"Notice the wording of this sentence: “The British fought the battle as victims of their own propaganda regarding the fighting qualities of
the Italian armed forces”
. BUT, that makes no sense, as clearly the British knew they were facing the Italians and the Germans. Not just
the Italians."
So you quoted a single line from O'Hara's conclusion and then criticized it in isolation for making no sense when in fact it made sense within the
context of the arguements made in his book. Even the paragraph you took his quote from can help make sense of it (Page 216):-
"The British fought the battle as victims of their own propaganda regarding the fighting qualities of the Italian armed forces. Harwood’s
plan relied upon the Italian fleet to react either too soon or too late. When he received favorable (and inaccurate) reports from bombers
and submarines, he expected the Italian fleet to withdraw “on past form.” Curteis did not reinforce Force X because, judging from past
encounters, he believed a 4-inch cruiser and five fleet destroyers were enough to deter a pair of enemy 6-inch cruisers and five destroyers."

And why does he single out the Italian Navy as a key contributor to the British defeat despite the damage being primarily done by other Axis forces?:-
From page 216, where the Harpoon convoy suffered a lengthy contact with an Italian surface force, leading to O'Hara's point on the consequences...
"The impact that air forces had against a convoy facing surface action was clearly demonstrated by comparing the different experience of
Harpoon and Pedestal after they passed the Sicilian narrows. Pedestal was not delayed nor were its escorts distracted by major surface
forces, and it delivered proportionally more transports to Malta than did Harpoon, which faced Da Zara’s cruisers."


And why was the Italian navy the decisive factor in the Vigorous convoy?
Page 122, from the concluding remarks on Operation Vigorous:-
"Thus the Italian response, not the force deployed, was the greatest difference between the winter convoys and the June operation. In fact,
Vigorous was an impossible proposition from the start unless the Italian fleet failed to act or proved very brittle, as Harwood anticipated."


That's just a sample but it's pretty clear what point O'Hara is making when you read the book, the losses inflicted on the June convoys by Axis
(that includes German) forces would not have been enough to defeat the convoy operations had the British planning not built in an assumption
that the Italian naval forces would not intervene any more effectively than in previous convoy actions. O'Hara also points out that Italian
military planning, intelligence gathering, reconnaissance and air-sea co-ordination all played a part in the Italian navy being able to
intervene so effectively as to derail the British plans, hence the use of the term "Italian military forces".

You don't have to agree with his arguements to see that his original quoted line does make sense in context.

And I noticed several similar examples of what I just highlighted have also occurred in your most recent post. I'm not going to bother going
through them line by line as I really don't have the same passion for this topic as you do. However, I will point out that I don't believe
all the arguements made by O'Hara in his book are particularly persuasive and you have often done a good job in refuting them but this
seeming obsession with emphasising every line where you believe O'Hara shows bias is only distracting from your better arguements.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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So you quoted a single line from O'Hara's conclusion and then criticized it in isolation for making no sense when in fact it made sense within the context of the arguements made in his book.

No, I criticised that single line because it is wrong and I have tried to show (and continue to show) this with examples. If you disagree then no problem, as said, we can agree to disagree, but until someone can prove that the British treated the Italians with contempt - until someone can actually justify that charge with evidence - then I will continue to criticise his ridiculous comment for what it is. One can criticise decisions made in the heat of battle, one can criticise execution, one can criticise elements of the planning, but there is nothing to suggest that the British planned these operations with a contempt or 'propaganda' - or whatever inflammatory word one wants to use to sell books - for the Italian armed forces. The planners thought they had done what what needed. They proved to be wrong and paid the price, but the plans put in place were reasonable given what they had to work with.

"Thus the Italian response, not the force deployed, was the greatest difference between the winter convoys and the June operation. In fact, Vigorous was an impossible proposition from the start unless the Italian fleet failed to act or proved very brittle, as Harwood anticipated."

The first part of the response is true and as I have said, the Italian navy can be largely complimented for Vigorous turning back, the second part remains total and utter nonsense.

Yes, had O’Hara been correct in saying that the British planning was compromised by ‘propaganda’ then the British could be seen to be guilty as charged because a failure to try and allow for what the RM could do, given the paucity of naval forces available, would only end one way. But the British did try and make up for the naval deficiency despite the ‘propaganda’ nonsense. The measures did not work – that does not mean they didn’t try.

Impossible proposition? Well no, not if the level bombers that hit Vittorio Veneto had done just a bit more damage, not if the torpedo bombers had hit her on her outbound journey or one of the submarines had done the same to one or both. Three times (not including Taranto) these ships were torpedoed. Harwood was not wrong to hope that damage or loss would be incurred by either bomb, aerial torpedo or submarine given the effort being expended. Sadly for the British that effort was not entirely successful as Trento's loss was not enough to make Iachino turn around. But, even if none of those attacks succeeded there was always the possibility that Iachino would head for the Western basin (as per his original intention) and/or there was always the possibility that intelligence would prove faulty as had proved so many times in the past.

Those things had nothing to do with Iachino having to fail to act, but everything to do with what was possible in war – and I repeat, based on previous experience – a possibility that would have been wrong to discount. Yes, wrong to rely on, but not wrong to factor in as a consideration alongside the very real submarine and air threat that was provided. Let us not forget either that Harwood did want Vian to continue. Had he done so, whether the Italian fleet (with Trento lost and Vittorio Veneto torpedoed), would have turned around is unknown of course.
"When he received favorable (and inaccurate) reports from bombers and submarines, he expected the Italian fleet to withdraw “on past form.” Curteis did not reinforce Force X because, judging from past encounters, he believed a 4-inch cruiser and five fleet destroyers were enough to deter a pair of enemy 6-inch cruisers and five destroyers."

Again, as with Somerville, yet more selective quotes designed to give one side of the story. Firstly it is true that the Italians had not sent in their surface ships into the straits before – and they wouldn’t during Pedestal subsequently (so it was hardly an unreasonable assumption for Curteis to make - and even more when looked at with hindsight) – but there are two sides to every story. It was not a simple decision that O'Hara suggests Curteis had to make of course. Curteis was down to just two cruisers to escort the carriers Eagle and Argus and the elderly unmodernised battleship Malaya (together with 8 destroyers), but O’Hara thinks he should have simply abandoned those ships - that he was responsible for - south of Sardinia on the basis that two Italian cruisers might do what they had never done before…. Hindsight is wonderful, but Curteis didn’t have it.

O’Hara seeks to make out the British Admiral’s decision was out of contempt – well of course he does, it suits his narrative, but charging off into the distance with even one cruiser and a couple of destroyers simply makes the carriers more vulnerable to aircraft and submarines, not to mention the rescuing force who themselves will come under air and submarine attack before they even get to the straits.
"The impact that air forces had against a convoy facing surface action was clearly demonstrated by comparing the different experience of Harpoon and Pedestal after they passed the Sicilian narrows. Pedestal was not delayed nor were its escorts distracted by major surface forces, and it delivered proportionally more transports to Malta than did Harpoon, which faced Da Zara’s cruisers."

Come Pedestal the British, despite their alleged 'propaganda' view of Italian capability, considerably beefed up their escort in the straits, while the Italian response? You know the Italians that O’Hara was seeking to prove were now superior, with better intelligence, better planning etc etc? Well they recalled their superior force of cruisers before said cruisers even got anywhere near battle.. and of course never even let the battleships out. And yet, and yet, despite everything that had happened in the past, in despite of what we know now would happen in the future, in the quote above, O'Hara had the nerve to suggest Harwood was wrong for thinking the RM might have proved brittle??? Where on earth could he have got that idea from?

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
So you quoted a single line from O'Hara's conclusion and then criticized it in isolation for making no sense when in fact it made sense within the context of the arguements made in his book.

No, I criticised that single line because it is wrong and I have tried to show (and continue to show) this with examples. If you disagree then no problem, as said, we can agree to disagree, but until someone can prove that the British treated the Italians with contempt - until someone can actually justify that charge with evidence - then I will continue to criticise his ridiculous comment for what it is. One can criticise decisions made in the heat of battle, one can criticise execution, one can criticise elements of the planning, but there is nothing to suggest that the British planned these operations with a contempt or 'propaganda' - or whatever inflammatory word one wants to use to sell books - for the Italian armed forces. The planners thought they had done what what needed. They proved to be wrong and paid the price, but the plans put in place were reasonable given what they had to work with.
Okay, I've given it my best shot at pointing out how you are risking the misrepresentation of the author's views to an audience who probably have not
read this book. But we're back to you wanting to vent about the author's use of the word "propaganda" even though it was nothing to do with my original
point. I suspect this is much more about the author than his book, so I won't try any further.
"Thus the Italian response, not the force deployed, was the greatest difference between the winter convoys and the June operation. In fact, Vigorous was an impossible proposition from the start unless the Italian fleet failed to act or proved very brittle, as Harwood anticipated."

The first part of the response is true and as I have said, the Italian navy can be largely complimented for Vigorous turning back, the second part remains total and utter nonsense.

Yes, had O’Hara been correct in saying that the British planning was compromised by ‘propaganda’ then the British could be seen to be guilty as charged because a failure to try and allow for what the RM could do, given the paucity of naval forces available, would only end one way. But the British did try and make up for the naval deficiency despite the ‘propaganda’ nonsense. The measures did not work – that does not mean they didn’t try.

Impossible proposition? Well no, not if the level bombers that hit Vittorio Veneto had done just a bit more damage, not if the torpedo bombers had hit her on her outbound journey or one of the submarines had done the same to one or both. Three times (not including Taranto) these ships were torpedoed. Harwood was not wrong to hope that damage or loss would be incurred by either bomb, aerial torpedo or submarine given the effort being expended. Sadly for the British that effort was not entirely successful as Trento's loss was not enough to make Iachino turn around. But, even if none of those attacks succeeded there was always the possibility that Iachino would head for the Western basin (as per his original intention) and/or there was always the possibility that intelligence would prove faulty as had proved so many times in the past.

Those things had nothing to do with Iachino having to fail to act, but everything to do with what was possible in war – and I repeat, based on previous experience – a possibility that would have been wrong to discount. Yes, wrong to rely on, but not wrong to factor in as a consideration alongside the very real submarine and air threat that was provided. Let us not forget either that Harwood did want Vian to continue. Had he done so, whether the Italian fleet (with Trento lost and Vittorio Veneto torpedoed), would have turned around is unknown of course.
"When he received favorable (and inaccurate) reports from bombers and submarines, he expected the Italian fleet to withdraw “on past form.” Curteis did not reinforce Force X because, judging from past encounters, he believed a 4-inch cruiser and five fleet destroyers were enough to deter a pair of enemy 6-inch cruisers and five destroyers."

Again, as with Somerville, yet more selective quotes designed to give one side of the story. Firstly it is true that the Italians had not sent in their surface ships into the straits before – and they wouldn’t during Pedestal subsequently (so it was hardly an unreasonable assumption for Curteis to make - and even more when looked at with hindsight) – but there are two sides to every story. It was not a simple decision that O'Hara suggests Curteis had to make of course. Curteis was down to just two cruisers to escort the carriers Eagle and Argus and the elderly unmodernised battleship Malaya (together with 8 destroyers), but O’Hara thinks he should have simply abandoned those ships - that he was responsible for - south of Sardinia on the basis that two Italian cruisers might do what they had never done before…. Hindsight is wonderful, but Curteis didn’t have it.

O’Hara seeks to make out the British Admiral’s decision was out of contempt – well of course he does, it suits his narrative, but charging off into the distance with even one cruiser and a couple of destroyers simply makes the carriers more vulnerable to aircraft and submarines, not to mention the rescuing force who themselves will come under air and submarine attack before they even get to the straits.
"The impact that air forces had against a convoy facing surface action was clearly demonstrated by comparing the different experience of Harpoon and Pedestal after they passed the Sicilian narrows. Pedestal was not delayed nor were its escorts distracted by major surface forces, and it delivered proportionally more transports to Malta than did Harpoon, which faced Da Zara’s cruisers."

Come Pedestal the British, despite their alleged 'propaganda' view of Italian capability, considerably beefed up their escort in the straits, while the Italian response? You know the Italians that O’Hara was seeking to prove were now superior, with better intelligence, better planning etc etc? Well they recalled their superior force of cruisers before said cruisers even got anywhere near battle.. and of course never even let the battleships out. And yet, and yet, despite everything that had happened in the past, in despite of what we know now would happen in the future, in the quote above, O'Hara had the nerve to suggest Harwood was wrong for thinking the RM might have proved brittle??? Where on earth could he have got that idea from?
Don't really care. And the Mediterranean War must be as boring as I originally thought if half the current discussion appears to been spent on what bad
words an author may have used while describing it.[:)]

I only cut&pasted these to show that the author's original statement did make logical sense when taken in context of what was written in the book
(and for one final time, saying it makes sense is not the same as agreeing with it). Feel free to attack his supporting arguements now that these are
on display as at least we have some context using his own words. IMO, had you done it that way from the beginning rather than supplying your own
version of context, it probably would have saved some typing as well as giving an audience the chance to better judge your criticisms.

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

I think we have both given it our best shorts but ultimately we cannot convince the other, you believe I am misrepresenting the book whilst I believe I am highlighting the faults of O'Hara's argument - and that's fine - it was an interesting and thought provoking discussion and we don't have to agree to make it so.

To say its about the author though is a little unwarranted - I clearly would not buy the number of books of his that I have if there was no merit to them.

As for your choice of Pacific over the boring Mediterranean, then again, no problem, you stick with one you prefer and I will get continue with naval warfare wherever it existed - Arctic, Pacific (and environs), the Atlantics, Baltic, Med, Red Sea, Black Sea, Indian Ocean. All of them absolutely fascinating [:)]

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think we have both given it our best shorts...
I'm familiar with strip poker but I wasn't aware such rules were also being applied to our discussions here. Is this something routinely practiced in
British debates?
As for your choice of Pacific over the boring Mediterranean, then again, no problem, you stick with one you prefer and I will get continue with naval warfare wherever it existed - Arctic, Pacific (and environs), the Atlantics, Baltic, Med, Red Sea, Black Sea, Indian Ocean. All of them absolutely fascinating.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock
ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think we have both given it our best shorts...
I'm familiar with strip poker but I wasn't aware such rules were also being applied to our discussions here. Is this something routinely practiced in
British debates?
As for your choice of Pacific over the boring Mediterranean, then again, no problem, you stick with one you prefer and I will get continue with naval warfare wherever it existed - Arctic, Pacific (and environs), the Atlantics, Baltic, Med, Red Sea, Black Sea, Indian Ocean. All of them absolutely fascinating.
You must have one big library...or live in one.
warspite1

Whoops! [:D]


Re the library, sadly not [:(], but its growing and has to be around 80%-90% naval by now. Nothing like opening up a book and quickly realising that yes, this is a good one [:)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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Buckrock
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Re the library, sadly not [:(], but its growing and has to be around 80%-90% naval by now. Nothing like opening up a book and quickly realising that yes, this is a good one [:)]
So there must still be plenty of room in your growing library for primary historical documents, as I once recommended to you during a discussion
involving that far more interesting Pacific theatre. It can be a perfect foil for countering dubious claims by authors whose interpretations annoy
you as you can work from much of the same material they do. I assume you must by now have a collection of the operational despatches to the
Admiralty from RN commanders involved in various WWII actions, such Harpoon and Vigorous in this case.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Re the library, sadly not [:(], but its growing and has to be around 80%-90% naval by now. Nothing like opening up a book and quickly realising that yes, this is a good one [:)]
So there must still be plenty of room in your growing library for primary historical documents, as I once recommended to you during a discussion
involving that far more interesting Pacific theatre. It can be a perfect foil for countering dubious claims by authors whose interpretations annoy
you as you can work from much of the same material they do. I assume you must by now have a collection of the operational despatches to the
Admiralty from RN commanders involved in various WWII actions, such Harpoon and Vigorous in this case.
warspite1

I think one assumes too much in this instance [;)]

But of of course yes, one can not have enough information, enough source material, enough of anything when it comes to military history and WWII in particular. Being able to afford everything, collate everything and store everything is another matter.... not to mention read everything.... [:)]

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

Whilst continuing reading the The Royal Navy in Eastern Waters I found out something I'd not heard of before.

Apparently, pre-Pearl Harbor (and pre-Ark Royal's sinking), as part of the more general USN plan to take over from the RN in the western Atlantic / US Coast, there was also a plan for the USN to take over Force H duties at Gibraltar in the event of war. Force H would then be freed up to be sent to the Far East. Interestingly, there is no mention in the book of the USN using a carrier - but Washington and North Carolina were both mentioned. Does anyone know anything more about this planned deployment?
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
there is no mention in the book of the USN using a carrier

Wouldn't Ranger be the 'favorite' for assumption of this task? She did yeoman's work in and around the Med with the North Africa landings, attacks on the Jean Bart and transport of aircraft into this theatre. Why not pinch hit in this related and nearby capacity?
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by MakeeLearn »


The Wasp was in the Med for awhile. It delivered several loads of Spitfires to Malta, but that was not prewar.






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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Whilst continuing reading the The Royal Navy in Eastern Waters I found out something I'd not heard of before.

Apparently, pre-Pearl Harbor (and pre-Ark Royal's sinking), as part of the more general USN plan to take over from the RN in the western Atlantic / US Coast, there was also a plan for the USN to take over Force H duties at Gibraltar in the event of war. Force H would then be freed up to be sent to the Far East. Interestingly, there is no mention in the book of the USN using a carrier - but Washington and North Carolina were both mentioned. Does anyone know anything more about this planned deployment?
Sounds like one of the optimistic Churchill plans put forward during the Atlantic Conference meeting in August 1941 only to then be refused by the US.
Post Pearl Harbor, the US accepted a modified plan in March '42 that sent a Task Force (39) that included the Wasp and Washington to Scarpa so as to free
up RN elements for their Madagascar Invasion.

Does the author cite any references about the plan he is referring to? Any details from him as to when or where it was raised?
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

Given the audience I was hoping that some people here would know a bit about the ABC's/ADB's/Riviera.

Not in the slightest bit interested in anything post Pearl as clearly the game had changed - and a lot of thinking, British and American, proved to be redundant - not to mention plain wrong. I am only interested in what the great and the good thought in 1940, and more crucially, 1941.

I am getting one side i.e. Britain's strategic naval thinking pre-Japanese war, and am hoping for some input from US sources.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

Well, excuuuse me.

Perhaps you need to read even more books.

So the author did or did not reference this agreement to the ABC meetings?

And the March '42 decision I referred to should have had some relevance as it was a modified form of a pre-Dec '41 British proposal.

In the March '41 meeting (ABC-1), the following was tentatively agreed to (note the qualifiers)...

57. As soon as the situation in the Pacific permits their transfer to the Atlantic, the following United States naval forces will be assigned the tasks
in paragraph 54, unless the strategic situation in the Atlantic at that time dictates a different decision. It is possible, depending upon the situation
in the Far East, that Force H will have left Gibraltar for the Indian Ocean or Far East Area before its relief by United States naval forces.

United States Gibraltar Force

3 Battleships
1 Aircraft Carrier
4 8" Cruisers
13 Destroyers
12 Patrol type Seaplanes
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I am getting one side i.e. Britain's strategic naval thinking pre-Japanese war, and am hoping for some input from US sources.

Warspite1,

What, specifically are you looking for USN perspective about? This is undoubtedly the right venue, but the question needs to be very specific in my experience. [:)]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

....it is possible, depending upon the situation in the Far East, that Force H will have left Gibraltar for the Indian Ocean or Far East Area before its relief by United States naval forces.

United States Gibraltar Force

3 Battleships
1 Aircraft Carrier
4 8" Cruisers
13 Destroyers
12 Patrol type Seaplanes[/i]
warspite1

Yes. I will have to find me a book summarising the key conferences from the US perspective to try and come to any conclusion here. But sadly that will have to wait a while for I fear if yet another Amazon package arrives for yours truly, Mrs warspite will batter Mr warspite to a bloody pulp with it...... [:(]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Lecivius »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

....it is possible, depending upon the situation in the Far East, that Force H will have left Gibraltar for the Indian Ocean or Far East Area before its relief by United States naval forces.

United States Gibraltar Force

3 Battleships
1 Aircraft Carrier
4 8" Cruisers
13 Destroyers
12 Patrol type Seaplanes[/i]
warspite1

Yes. I will have to find me a book summarising the key conferences from the US perspective to try and come to any conclusion here. But sadly that will have to wait a while for I fear if yet another Amazon package arrives for yours truly, Mrs warspite will batter Mr warspite to a bloody pulp with it...... [:(]

Gotta keep the War Dept. happy [;)]
[:D]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I am getting one side i.e. Britain's strategic naval thinking pre-Japanese war, and am hoping for some input from US sources.

Warspite1,

What, specifically are you looking for USN perspective about? This is undoubtedly the right venue, but the question needs to be very specific in my experience. [:)]
warspite1

Here I was specifically interested in the thinking for the Force H replacement, given the recent thread on the Mediterranean theatre. Unless there was any updated idea post ABC-1 (which I doubt) the answer received above kind of fits in with what I thought and just wasn't going to happen unless a set of circumstances totally divorced from what really happened, came about.

But more interesting is the wider US/British plans and how these affected the Far East/Pacific. To my mind the plans (as far as I can make them out) worked out by the US/British during 1941 were riddled with two problems.

- The US wanted the British to defend the Malay barrier. Given what the RN had, this was a nonsense.
- The British wanted the Americans to defend the Malay barrier. Given the political constraints that Roosevelt was under - let alone the practicalities of doing so - this was a nonsense.

In both cases the idea was right - imagine the Japanese failing to get the NEI - but neither was workable for different reasons.

The problems were then compounded by any RN force needing to be released from the ETO - but (with the exception of the Western Atlantic) the US could only go so far until they were at war with Germany.... and of course what happens if Japan gets in first?

And so sadly we end up with Force Z but no air and ground reinforcements for Malaya and a partially reinforced (with aircraft only) P.I.


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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