Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[JeffroK]

From GJ's thread

Pax, you can have some of my supply if you want to? I have 103 million sitting around not doing much of anything.

Joc, maybe you should be swapping it with QBall for a couple of hundred invulnerable T-Bolts.

GJ's travails are perfect example of different problems in different games, things are rarely the same.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Can you spare a TF to bombard Bataan on the day before??

Also, shooting at your kami MSW would use supply, get ready for a "gamey" email [:'(]

To Bullwinkle, Jan 45 was the end of the Bulge, I dont think Ike was sending reinforcement to the Pacific just yet.

Already done! [:)] 3 BBs and 8 CAs will try to disrupt the CD guns. It will only have a little effect though but better than nothing. Tried it in sandbox even using 8 fast BBs the disruption won´t go above 78 and that didn´t have much effect on the shooting. You need to disable the actual guns and that would take 8-12 naval bombardments. Better to do that from the air I think. [:)]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

From GJ's thread

Pax, you can have some of my supply if you want to? I have 103 million sitting around not doing much of anything.

Joc, maybe you should be swapping it with QBall for a couple of hundred invulnerable T-Bolts.

GJ's travails are perfect example of different problems in different games, things are rarely the same.

Indeed. Thats why I´m against increasing Allied plane productions. I have a hunch though that Q-ball is really going to suffer from lack of air frames. Even more than I have as he has taken a lot more losses in 43 than I ever did. So thats going to give GJ better pilots than what Erik has further increasing allied plane shortages. All speculation of course. [:)]

[JocMeister]

And now the waiting begins. It will be a carnage no question about that. But who will suffer it?

[JocMeister]

EDIT Nm...

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

To Bullwinkle, Jan 45 was the end of the Bulge, I dont think Ike was sending reinforcement to the Pacific just yet.

Gee, really?

Please re-read what I said.

[JocMeister]

Watched the replay. The BB bombardment went in perfectly and losses were miniscule. Only a couple of hits on the DDs from CD guns and 1-2 mine hits. No ships in danger of sinking.

Sadly the air war went bonkers. Half the sweeps rained in together with most or all of the LRCAP set to support them. So the bombers flew against the Manila CAP alone probably supported by leaky CAP from the CVs. Despite the aid of the CV CAP or LRCAP and 400 P38s the bombers got mauled pretty badly.

Erik is really upset I have "broken our agreement". I have no clue what kind of an agreement he thinks we have. But in light of how well his CAP did against the bombers despite CV CAP/LRCAP aid and the critical allied pools I have asked if we can remove the "escort for escort" agreement. To my knowledge NO other game have a ban on LRCAP for escort?

[Bullwinkle58]

You both need a team of lawyers. Fifteen each should be sufficient for a start.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You both need a team of lawyers. Fifteen each should be sufficient for a start.

Thats a good start. But we probably need 35 each and fourteen years in court...

[Bullwinkle58]

Or, you could look at the paint job on your planes and see if there's a meatball there . . .

[Crackaces]

I have asked if we can remove the "escort for escort" agreement. To my knowledge NO other game have a ban on LRCAP for escort?

What game mechanic does this compensate for? or is this an attempt to conform to a perception of "real life"?

I like Bullwinke's game .. with no home rules the algorithms no matter how badly written .....are the final arbitrator

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Or, you could look at the paint job on your planes and see if there's a meatball there . . .

Now you lost me? I don´t know what that means. [:)]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I have asked if we can remove the "escort for escort" agreement. To my knowledge NO other game have a ban on LRCAP for escort?

What game mechanic does this compensate for? or is this an attempt to conform to a perception of "real life"?

I like Bullwinke's game .. with no home rules the algorithms no matter how badly written .....are the final arbitrator

Yeah, Erik felt his fighters took too heavy losses when LRCAP protected the bombers and the bombers itself never took any losses. That was of course in 42 when he was flying Tojos. Now he is flying stuff that shoots down a bomber by just looking at it. I agreed to it then because it seemed to make sense and I had a nice pool of both fighters and bombers. Right now it feels kind of stupid with the BETA and gazillion fragments not being escorted and shot down in droves by his CAP.

So everytime I attack something that is CAPed/LRCAP it will loose a tremendous amount of bombers when the unescorted fragments starts coming in.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Now you lost me? I don´t know what that means. [:)]

I missed the quote from Bullwinke58 .. so this seems totally out of context ..

However, to keep the conversation going .. I postulate the following:

1. the players mutually agree that a particular game mechanic/algorithm can be exploited and the user behaviors that cause this exploitation are prohibited / constrained.

2. The players mutually or one side has some notion that a certain algorithm does not simulate their particular perception / understanding of history, and changing user behavior will help the game to conform to their worldview. This I might suggest has inherent problems of unintended consequences that might not be immediately apparent.

I might suggest a third problem: The game at one time had an algorithm problem that players commonly understood the problem, but now the behavior has changed in one of Michaels patches. Continuing the home rule causes even more unintended consequences.

[Encircled]

In the unlikely event I ever have time for PBEM, I'm going to have two house rules max.

No Mersing gambit (see Cannonfodder being turned into, er, cannonfodder v quioxte)

Pay PP's for restricted units

Thats it

I've lost count how many HR's you two have got, but on the plus side you have made 1945!

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Now you lost me? I don´t know what that means. [:)]

I missed the quote from Bullwinke58 .. so this seems totally out of context ..

However, to keep the conversation going .. I postulate the following:

1. the players mutually agree that a particular game mechanic/algorithm can be exploited and the user behaviors that cause this exploitation are prohibited / constrained.

2. The players mutually or one side has some notion that a certain algorithm does not simulate their particular perception / understanding of history, and changing user behavior will help the game to conform to their worldview. This I might suggest has inherent problems of unintended consequences that might not be immediately apparent.

I might suggest a third problem: The game at one time had an algorithm problem that players commonly understood the problem, but now the behavior has changed in one of Michaels patches. Continuing the home rule causes even more unintended consequences.

You didn´t miss the quote. I added it when I saw you have posted "between" my post and Bullwinkles so you woun´t think my post was aimed at you. Guess I was too slow! [:D]

[Crackaces]

Yeah, Erik felt his fighters took too heavy losses when LRCAP protected the bombers and the bombers itself never took any losses. That was of course in 42 when he was flying Tojos. Now he is flying stuff that shoots down a bomber by just looking at it. I agreed to it then because it seemed to make sense and I had a nice pool of both fighters and bombers. Right now it feels kind of stupid with the BETA and gazillion fragments not being escorted and shot down in droves by his CAP.

This game takes at least 18 months I would estimate and in some cases a lot longer to fully appreciate what seems to be a good change to correct the moment. Therefore The unintended consequences takes years to really understand. If both players do not appreciate the unintended consequences and victory becomes more important than game play .. you get highly emotional highly contentious debates. I would not say these are Crucial Conversations as I am not sure a game qualifies as "high stakes". But, if one is really personally invested in this game over a year or two, then I could see a high stakes component and all the ingredients of a Crucial Conversation.

These types of conflicts are mote likely to result in disruptive behaviors ...

One bad thing in a long game like this is a home rule that leads to an unbalanced situation in itself -- only 2 years down the road ...

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

This game takes at least 18 months I would estimate and in some cases a lot longer to fully appreciate what seems to be a good change to correct the moment. Therefore The unintended consequences takes years to really understand. If both players do not appreciate the unintended consequences and victory becomes more important than game play .. you get highly emotional highly contentious debates. I would not say these are Crucial Conversations as I am not sure a game qualifies as "high stakes". But, if one is really personally invested in this game over a year or two, then I could see a high stakes component and all the ingredients of a Crucial Conversation.

These types of conflicts are mote likely to result in disruptive behaviors ...

One bad thing in a long game like this is a home rule that leads to an unbalanced situation in itself -- only 2 years down the road ...

Indeed. Lets just say I´m a lot more opposed to HRs in general then I was a year ago...

[JocMeister]

This game generates enough drama it should be on american television....[8|]

Basically it boils down to possible LRCAP (not even sure it was LRCAP. Could be CAP leaking from the CVs) protecting the bombers over Manila. I know this is a huge deal considering every other game out there freely uses LRCAP as escorts and I probably lost at least a months worth of 4Es AND probably 50 P38s on escort. I´m truly a vile person for unintentionally using such massive game exploits. [8|] I spent an entire day in sandbox trying stuff out to minimize LRCAP interference and bombardments. To be called a cheat after that is a little bit more than I can stomach. I asked Erik if could just remove the LRCAP HR all together and get rid of silly situation like this. I was told to "get real".

Havn´t gotten the turn back and I´m not sure I will. Honestly don´t know if will send it back even if I do. I´m fed up with the drama. I´m not enjoying the game and even less so after todays email conversation.


Whatever happens it was a good allied day. We go out with a bang!

Night Naval bombardment of Clark Field at 79,76

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
H8K2 Emily: 75 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 13 destroyed on ground
N1K2-J George: 57 damaged
N1K2-J George: 14 destroyed on ground
N1K1-J George: 48 damaged
N1K1-J George: 6 destroyed on ground
Ki-84r Frank: 22 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 4 destroyed on ground
Ki-84a Frank: 15 damaged
Ki-84a Frank: 5 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 26 damaged
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 6 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Missouri
BB Wisconsin
BB New Jersey
BB Iowa

Japanese ground losses:
434 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 32 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 23 (13 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 14 (6 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Airbase hits 34
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 50
Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Clark Field at 79,76

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 23 damaged
Ki-84a Frank: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 21 damaged
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 4 destroyed on ground
N1K2-J George: 78 damaged
N1K2-J George: 8 destroyed on ground
Ki-84r Frank: 19 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 3 destroyed on ground
H8K2 Emily: 52 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 6 destroyed on ground
N1K1-J George: 28 damaged
N1K1-J George: 3 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Richelieu
BB Massachusetts
BB Indiana
BB South Dakota

Japanese ground losses:
408 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 22 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 10 (9 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 27
Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

And to celebrate Tokyo REALLY burned tonight. The fires caused here at 10 times bigger than anything we accomplished before. [X(]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain<--Finally!

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes [:'(]

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 5

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 3 damaged

Manpower hits 21
Fires 76140 [X(]

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Or, you could look at the paint job on your planes and see if there's a meatball there . . .

Now you lost me? I don´t know what that means. [:)]

Sorry. Maybe an American English idiom.

In the era, the Japanese national symbol found on the military flag (the red circle) was called a "meatball." I was saying, are these your planes or his? I get why some people like HRs even if I don't, but this endless, never-ending litigating in the middle of combat . . .

It's your game, as is always said in these cases. We're watching. And it's a very, very interesting game. But the stoppages of play to try to "fix" the unfixable are hard to watch.

That's all.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Sorry. Maybe an American English idiom.

In the era, the Japanese national symbol found on the military flag (the red circle) was called a "meatball." I was saying, are these your planes or his? I get why some people like HRs even if I don't, but this endless, never-ending litigating in the middle of combat . . .

It's your game, as is always said in these cases. We're watching. And it's a very, very interesting game. But the stoppages of play to try to "fix" the unfixable are hard to watch.

That's all.

Heh, while I might never play a completely HR free game like you have I´m slowly, slowly getting there. I´m at the same point Encircled is right now. PPs for restricted units. Thats the only one I would really want in my next game.

PS. I don´t know idiom either. Had to look it up! [:D]