Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

Buckrock
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:10 am
Location: Not all there

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Unless there was any updated idea post ABC-1 (which I doubt) the answer received above kind of fits in with what I thought and just wasn't going to happen unless a set of circumstances totally divorced from what really happened, came about.

As suggested earlier, the Atlantic Conference did bring about further discussion (British requests). It was also in that conference where the names of the
Washington and North Carolina were raised, in that Admiral Stark agreed to keep them in the Atlantic for the time being and if the US found itself at war
with Germany (and possibly Japan) that consideration would be given to the sending of the two USN BBs to Gibraltar so as to free up RN units for the Far
East.

So I'd suggest that, when the likelihood of a battering from the Mrs has subsided, the Atlantic Conference might be the more promising subject to pursue.
This was the only sig line I could think of.
User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by MakeeLearn »

Some online...

Goes into RAINBOW 5 replacing ABC-1.

"War in the Pacific, Strategy and Command: The First Two Years"

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/ ... ub_5-1.pdf


"The third point of British strategy, the importance of Singapore, involved the whole question of Far Eastern strategy. On this, there was a fundamental disagreement between the British and American delegates. This disagreement stemmed partly from different national interests. The British had to deal with problems of imperial security, and in their view Singapore was essential to the defense of India, Australia, and New Zealand. American interests in the Far East, though substantial, were not as vital. The only American possession of importance in the area, the Philippines, had virtually been written off as indefensible in a war with Japan."




"The Americans, conscious of their overwhelming material resources and unwilling to face the prospects of a long war, wished to concentrate all their power at the earliest possible moment against the main enemy. To achieve this aim and end the war quickly with fewer casualties in the long run, they were willing to face the temporary loss of strategic positions like the Philippines and to risk substantial casualties initially rather than disperse their forces or adopt a purely defensive or delaying strategy."



"These differences emerged sharply in the discussions over Singapore. What the British were asking the Americans to do was to underwrite the defense of the Empire and incorporate, as a central feature of Allied strategy, ............


"Though the Americans appreciated the political, economic, and symbolic significance of Singapore for the British Empire, they doubted its strategic value and the wisdom of underwriting its defense. To accept the British proposal would not only have been contrary to their instructions but would constitute, the American delegates believed, "a strategic error of incalculable magnitude." 39 They therefore refused to budge from the position that the British must look after their own special interests, as the United States would look after its own in the Philippines, and that the two nations should act together where their interests coincided—in the North Atlantic and the British Isles."


"At the same time, the Joint Board issued a new directive for the preparation of RAINBOW 5, the situation most closely meeting the requirements laid down in ABC-1".



"Appendix Page A. DIRECTIVE TO THE SUPREME COMMANDER, ABDA AREA, 3 JANUARY 1942 (ABC-4/5) ................ page 607"






User avatar
Skyros
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Columbia SC

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Skyros »

Attachments
Capture.jpg
Capture.jpg (62.05 KiB) Viewed 238 times
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

"These differences emerged sharply in the discussions over Singapore. What the British were asking the Americans to do was to underwrite the defense of the Empire and incorporate, as a central feature of Allied strategy, ............
warspite1

As per post 260 I think optically the British did appear to be doing that, but as said, even if that was the thinking, I don't think that made it the wrong call. After all the Japanese went to war to secure the NEI oil. Japan could muck about all it liked in the Solomons or Wake or Guam or wherever. But without the NEI.....

That is not to criticise the American position because optics - as far as public opinion is concerned - is pretty damn important to say the least. In addition there were the practical considerations of defending the Malay barrier with communications to the USA potentially cut. So simply put the US could not, realistically, be expected to adopt that position.

Equally however, the British - and I really struggle with the Admiralty's thinking here - should have said Malaya/Singapore is likely indefensible and the defence of the Far East should begin with securing Indian Ocean communications - but no further.

This no doubt may be considered easy with hindsight but I don't think its that big a stretch (With some gaps, British intelligence of Japanese navy and air forces was actual reasonably accurate). Whether it was under pressure from the US or whether just rank stupidity, the idea that the RN could defend north of Singapore, given the assets at their disposal in late 1941, and given the need to concentrate on the Mediterranean - forward defence against Japan was never likely to end well without the commitment of resources they didn't have.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by MakeeLearn »



It does seem the US was being more realistic in what could and could not be done in the Pacific.






User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



It does seem the US was being more realistic in what could and could not be done in the Pacific.
warspite1

I would be interested to know what you are thinking of specifically here please.

Because of what happened subsequently, one cannot airbrush the PI and Pearl Harbor out of the equation.

The UK did not put enough into the defence of Malaya/Singapore and lost them, the US put reinforcements into PI too late - and lost it.

The British placed a task force in Singapore and lost it (and depending on who you read and believe, may have placed a larger force there within a short space of time) - the US placed their Pacific Fleet at Pearl and got it mauled.

Once war started, are you referring to a case of more realistic - or more capable given the single most important weapon in that war - the carrier (and quality of aircraft)?

The RN (give or take the odd, mostly RAN, ship here and there) did not return to the Pacific until 1944 when the RM was gone and the KM was as good as gone (U-boats aside). I think that was a pretty realistic summary of the situation [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
BBfanboy
Posts: 20773
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:36 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by BBfanboy »

I think the generally-held poor opinion of the quality of Japanese ships/planes/equipment and of the fighting qualities of their men played a big role in the Allied tendency to under-estimate what the Japanese could achieve. The people closest to the danger may have had an inkling, but back in the National HQs they thought a few Westerners were as good as hundreds of Japanese.

This stereotype was one of the things that rankled the Japanese who felt they got no respect from the West, despite beating Russia handily in 1904-05, and providing security in the Western Pacific during the Great War. They knew that many Asian peoples were similarly annoyed at Western arrogance and counted on that to bring a wave of support to their Co-Prosperity Sphere. The viciousness of the Japanese in China betrayed their own racism toward other peoples.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

I wonder how much that is really true and how much this is one of those old chestnuts that get regurgitated as 'fact' but actually has little basis in fact - or at least not the importance that is placed on it?

I mean there are clearly comments that can be dug out from senior US/British politicians/military men that seem to support that theory - and who knows, maybe it is true. There was a story - true or not I don't know - that the Japanese were believed to be unable to see well enough to fly properly! That sort of mud sticks - but who said it and when? And was it really believed in the 1940's?

Without further proof, I tend to think its a case of the former. Using just one example, there is the senior British officer (I cannot place the name for the moment) who is supposed to have said that Hurricanes were not required in Malaya - the Buffalo would be perfectly good enough.

Was this really some Colonel Blimp character who believed in Japanese racial inferiority? Maybe - or maybe its someone who, knowing the PM wanted Hurricanes to go to the USSR and that the Middle East had priority for anything else, was simply not rocking the boat? This surely makes more sense, after all what commander refuses equipment for his command!?!?

Britain did not have the resources to feed the USSR, guard against invasion (in 1941 it was assumed that the Germans would defeat the Soviets and turn back on the UK) guard Egypt and the Mediterranean, defend the sea lanes, and defend the Far East. Maybe the lack of reinforcements to Malaya reflected that reality rather than being dismissive of the Japanese on racial grounds.

If the US military were so dismissive of the Japanese why did they initially believe the PI was indefensible? When they changed their minds, why was the plan to build up such strong air defences on the islands? in late 1941 my understanding is that the bulk of US aircraft production went to the PI. If the Japanese were so rubbish why not build up naval defences in the PI too?

I think any country that goes into a war with too little respect for their enemy gets a good kicking, but too much respect and they are beaten from the start. I may be wrong but, gut-feel, I am not convinced that decisions were made on racial grounds or that there was a generally held poor opinion of Japanese capability that meant that the Far East was not defended as it could have been.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
Skyros
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Columbia SC

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Skyros »

A comment in the Book Singapore Burning by Colin Smith is attributed to Commander-in-Chief Far East Brooke-Popham. "We can get on alright with Buffaloes out here, Let England have the super-Spitfires and the hyper-Hurricanes. Buffaloes are good enough for Malaya."
Buckrock
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:10 am
Location: Not all there

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I wonder how much that is really true and how much this is one of those old chestnuts that get regurgitated as 'fact' but actually has little basis in fact - or at least not the importance that is placed on it?

I mean there are clearly comments that can be dug out from senior US/British politicians/military men that seem to support that theory - and who knows, maybe it is true. There was a story - true or not I don't know - that the Japanese were believed to be unable to see well enough to fly properly! That sort of mud sticks - but who said it and when? And was it really believed in the 1940's?

Without further proof, I tend to think its a case of the former. Using just one example, there is the senior British officer (I cannot place the name for the moment) who is supposed to have said that Hurricanes were not required in Malaya - the Buffalo would be perfectly good enough.

Was this really some Colonel Blimp character who believed in Japanese racial inferiority? Maybe - or maybe its someone who, knowing the PM wanted Hurricanes to go to the USSR and that the Middle East had priority for anything else, was simply not rocking the boat? This surely makes more sense, after all what commander refuses equipment for his command!?!?
After everything I have read, I would agree with BBfanboy. While it's impossible to objectively measure its impact, there was a cultural bias in place
amongst enough of the European and Americans that its likely subjective influence on decision making can't be ignored. When military leaders, intel
analysts, officers and servicemen can voice opinions that dismiss Japanese capabilities purely on the basis of racial stereotypes, they're not off to
a good start in defending the Far East.

While I have no issue with what some stated in the Far East during this time, I'll make no effort to repeat the more telling ones here.
Britain did not have the resources to feed the USSR, guard against invasion (in 1941 it was assumed that the Germans would defeat the Soviets and turn back on the UK) guard Egypt and the Mediterranean, defend the sea lanes, and defend the Far East. Maybe the lack of reinforcements to Malaya reflected that reality rather than being dismissive of the Japanese on racial grounds.
Blah, blah, more British excuses.[:)]
If the US military were so dismissive of the Japanese why did they initially believe the PI was indefensible? When they changed their minds, why was the plan to build up such strong air defences on the islands? in late 1941 my understanding is that the bulk of US aircraft production went to the PI. If the Japanese were so rubbish why not build up naval defences in the PI too?
To properly address these questions, I would suggest there might be at least a half dozen books you could read covering US war plans and the efforts to
reinforce the Philippines. You could start with Miller's "War Plan Orange" and Williford's "Racing the Sunrise".
This was the only sig line I could think of.
Buckrock
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:10 am
Location: Not all there

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Buckrock »

ORIGINAL: Skyros

A comment in the Book Singapore Burning by Colin Smith is attributed to Commander-in-Chief Far East Brooke-Popham. "We can get on alright with Buffaloes out here, Let England have the super-Spitfires and the hyper-Hurricanes. Buffaloes are good enough for Malaya."
Given some of what Brooke-Popham said about the Japanese, this comment is positively respectful.

This was the only sig line I could think of.
User avatar
Jorge_Stanbury
Posts: 4345
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

I don't think he had a choice regarding Buffaloes, he was not going to get the Spitfires/ Hurricanes

also, he was expecting to see Nates and Claudes
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I don't think he had a choice regarding Buffaloes, he was not going to get the Spitfires/ Hurricanes

also, he was expecting to see Nates and Claudes
warspite1

The first part I 100% agree and I suspect this was a serious case of not rocking the boat to no purpose. That comment is more likely to have been bravado in the face of an impossible situation (re getting meaningful reinforcements) than Colonel Blimp style buffoonery.

As to the second part it remains a little unclear to me as to what intelligence knew about the Zero, but I believe it - and its performance - were known in late 1941. As you say though, I think for the most part the quality of Japanese aircraft was a known factor - as were their numbers - and even if the Allies became aware of the Zero, timing is rather important here.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock
ORIGINAL: Skyros

A comment in the Book Singapore Burning by Colin Smith is attributed to Commander-in-Chief Far East Brooke-Popham. "We can get on alright with Buffaloes out here, Let England have the super-Spitfires and the hyper-Hurricanes. Buffaloes are good enough for Malaya."
Given some of what Brooke-Popham said about the Japanese, this comment is positively respectful.

warspite1

Stop Press Stop Press - Shock, Horror, probe, Military Commander says something derogatory about his potential foe - Stop Press Stop Press [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Buckrock
If the US military were so dismissive of the Japanese why did they initially believe the PI was indefensible? When they changed their minds, why was the plan to build up such strong air defences on the islands? in late 1941 my understanding is that the bulk of US aircraft production went to the PI. If the Japanese were so rubbish why not build up naval defences in the PI too?
To properly address these questions, I would suggest there might be at least a half dozen books you could read covering US war plans and the efforts to reinforce the Philippines. You could start with Miller's "War Plan Orange" and Williford's "Racing the Sunrise".
Blah, blah, more American excuses [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
BBfanboy
Posts: 20773
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:36 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I wonder how much that is really true and how much this is one of those old chestnuts that get regurgitated as 'fact' but actually has little basis in fact - or at least not the importance that is placed on it?

I mean there are clearly comments that can be dug out from senior US/British politicians/military men that seem to support that theory - and who knows, maybe it is true. There was a story - true or not I don't know - that the Japanese were believed to be unable to see well enough to fly properly! That sort of mud sticks - but who said it and when? And was it really believed in the 1940's?

Without further proof, I tend to think its a case of the former. Using just one example, there is the senior British officer (I cannot place the name for the moment) who is supposed to have said that Hurricanes were not required in Malaya - the Buffalo would be perfectly good enough.

Was this really some Colonel Blimp character who believed in Japanese racial inferiority? Maybe - or maybe its someone who, knowing the PM wanted Hurricanes to go to the USSR and that the Middle East had priority for anything else, was simply not rocking the boat? This surely makes more sense, after all what commander refuses equipment for his command!?!?

Britain did not have the resources to feed the USSR, guard against invasion (in 1941 it was assumed that the Germans would defeat the Soviets and turn back on the UK) guard Egypt and the Mediterranean, defend the sea lanes, and defend the Far East. Maybe the lack of reinforcements to Malaya reflected that reality rather than being dismissive of the Japanese on racial grounds.

If the US military were so dismissive of the Japanese why did they initially believe the PI was indefensible? When they changed their minds, why was the plan to build up such strong air defences on the islands? in late 1941 my understanding is that the bulk of US aircraft production went to the PI. If the Japanese were so rubbish why not build up naval defences in the PI too?

I think any country that goes into a war with too little respect for their enemy gets a good kicking, but too much respect and they are beaten from the start. I may be wrong but, gut-feel, I am not convinced that decisions were made on racial grounds or that there was a generally held poor opinion of Japanese capability that meant that the Far East was not defended as it could have been.
My impression that few gave the Japanese enough respect was confirmed by a TV documentary about the sinking of Force Z. They were interviewing survivors from PoW and Repulse who all said they were surprised at how good the Japanese bombers were, that they had been told the Japanese aircraft were "made of paper" , and a few comments about their eyesight, etc.

Now these were not high-ranking officers, but I don't think they would have had that expectation if they were not hearing similar things from their leaders. It is possible that their officers were trying to give them confidence as they went into the lion's den, but that if very poor leadership to give a false appreciation of the enemy.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by MakeeLearn »

I would be interested to know what you are thinking of specifically here please.

As per "War in the Pacific, Strategy and Command: The First Two Years"

The US was being more realistic in pre-war planning as to what could be achieved in the first years of the war. I dont know about Britain, but the US had been working on Pacific War contingency plans since the early 1900's and the Philippines were a major concern. There was even a plan in case of a war against Britain and one for a war against Britain and Japan at the same time.

The Philippines were expected to have to hold on for a time estimated at three to four months before being relieved. WW1 and the Washington Conference of 1921—22 changed this.


The Treaty of Versailles, ending WW1, allowed Japan to keep the German islands they had occupied during the war(Truk, etc.). These islands laid across communication/supply lines to the Philippines. President Wilson objected to them keeping the islands, however secret agreements had been made with Japan that put this into the treaty.


The Washington Conference of 1921—22 in that agreement the United States agreed to no further fortifying of its bases in the Philippines, Guam, the Aleutians, and other islands west of Hawaii. "With that loss, wrote Capt. Dudley W. Knox, went all chances of defending the Philippines and providing a military sanction for American policy."

After these events there developed two camps of thought on the the Philippines the "can defend" and "cannot defend". With the "can defend" also being called the "emotional response". The "can defend" camp had many defenders including Major General Leonard Wood. They argued that Manila and the bays could be turned into a fortress that could hold out until relieved.

The "cannot defend" camp pointed out that even if a Manila Fortress could hold out, the relieving force would have to fight it's way through Japanese held territory only to arrive with low ammo and low fuel and be expected to hold over 7,000 islands in the Philippines. (18th Infantry Division, Malaya)

The US military saw Europe as the first priority and the protection of Britain as being more important than the protection of Britain's concerns. In the Pacific this meant that the Japanese would have the initiative at first. The US military settled on a Panama, Hawaii, Alaska line in order to defend the west coast of US. Then there would be years of fighting to take islands in order to establish supply and communication lines for the advance westward.


It was no easy decision to not try and save those people. And many felt that not trying "would damage the prestige of the United States in the eyes of the world, would have a "disintegrating and demoralizing effect upon our people," and could end only in national dishonor." On Dec.8 we could have mustered all carriers and available forces for a fight toward the Philippines, which would have played into the hands of the Japanese "Kantai Kessen".(As they tried at Midway).


Prewar strategy, I believe the US had a more realistic military view of the situation than Britain. Britain was asking them to defend territory further west than what the US were admitting it could defend. Britain's wanting to hold at all cost is a example of English resolve and determination. Of course Britain's concern may have been more political. The US had told the Philippines that they could have their independence by 1946. Britain may have realized that if they lost what they held, that even when they took them back they would never be theirs again.







User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by MakeeLearn »


looks out for grammatical error in my quick firing[:'(]






User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42130
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn
I would be interested to know what you are thinking of specifically here please.

As per "War in the Pacific, Strategy and Command: The First Two Years"

The US was being more realistic in pre-war planning as to what could be achieved in the first years of the war. I dont know about Britain, but the US had been working on Pacific War contingency plans since the early 1900's and the Philippines were a major concern. There was even a plan in case of a war against Britain and one for a war against Britain and Japan at the same time.

The Philippines were expected to have to hold on for a time estimated at three to four months before being relieved. WW1 and the Washington Conference of 1921—22 changed this.


The Treaty of Versailles, ending WW1, allowed Japan to keep the German islands they had occupied during the war(Truk). These islands laid across communication/supply lines to the Philippines. President Wilson objected to them keeping the island, however secret agreements had been made with Japan that put this into the treaty.


The Washington Conference of 1921—22 in that agreement the United States agreed to no further fortifying of its bases in the Philippines, Guam, the Aleutians, and other islands west of Hawaii. "With that loss, wrote Capt. Dudley W. Knox, went all chances of defending the Philippines and providing a military sanction for American policy."

After these events there developed two camps of thought on the the Philippines the "can defend" and "cannot defend". With the "can defend" also being called the "emotional response". The "can defend" camp had many defenders including Major General Leonard Wood. They argued that Manila and the bays could be turned into a fortress that could hold out until relieved.

The "cannot defend" camp pointed out that even if a Manila Fortress could hold out, the relieving force would have to fight it's way through Japanese held territory only to arrive in the with low ammo and low fuel and be expected to hold over 7,000 islands in the Philippines. (18th Infantry Division, Malaya)

The US military saw Europe as the first priority and the protection of Britain as being more important than the protection of Britain's concerns. In the Pacific this meant that the Japanese would have the initiative at first. The US military settled on a Panama, Hawaii, Alaska line in order to defend the west coast of US. Then there would be years of fighting to take islands in order to establish supply and communication lines for the advance westward.


It was no easy decision to not try and safe those people. And many felt that not trying "would damage the prestige of the United States in the eyes of the world, would have a "disintegrating and demoralizing effect upon our people," and could end only in national dishonor." On Dec.8 we could have mustered all carriers and available forces for a fight toward the Philippines, which would have played into the hands of the Japanese "Kantai Kessen".(As they tried at Midway).


Prewar strategy, I believe the US had a more realistic military view of the situation than Britain. Britain was asking them to defend territory further west than what the US were admitting it could defend. Britain's wanting to hold at all cost is a example of English resolve and determination. Of Britain's concern may have been more political. The US had told the Philippines that they could have their independence by 1946. Britain may have realized that if they lost what they held, that even when they took them back they would never be theirs again.

warspite1

The difference of course was that Australia and New Zealand required defending too. Yes, politically, deciding that PI could be sacrificed was probably an easier sell to congress than Singapore - and certainly Australia and New Zealand - to Parliament (and certainly the Australian and New Zealand Parliaments!!) for obvious reasons [:D].

There is a very simple truth that underlies all of this. The British were making plans in an impossible situation. Strategical overstretch? There are better, simpler, more direct and descriptive words for it? [:)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by MakeeLearn »


There is a very simple truth that underlies all of this. The British were making plans in an impossible situation. Strategical overstretch? There are better, more descriptive words for it?


Never was so much expected from so few with so little.






Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”