Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Its just getting to me that these "missed turns" arn´t being explained with a note. A short saying "sorry didn´t have time it will come tomorrow morning" would go a long way.

We live in an era of constant access to the internet. It takes no more than 30 seconds to take up the phone and send a short email. I even do that when I´m later than usual with a turn. I don´t think its unfair to expect a similar behavior in return or am I asking for too much? If I fail to deliver on the usual schedule I ALWAYS send a note apologizing and letting my opponent know when the next turn will come. I most certainly do if I explicitly says a turn will come at a certain point and I fail to deliver on that.

Not doing so is just...inconsiderate? Or is this just a cultural thing and I´m being to demanding?

In my game I am lucky to do 2 two day turns per week. So maybe your expectations for turn exchange are too high.

[ny59giants]

Your game can easily reach '46 and the Allies still never achieve air superiority. You will gain it at sea and on land, but never in the air. That's a sad thing. [:(]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: bigred
In my game I am lucky to do 2 two day turns per week. So maybe your expectations for turn exchange are too high.

You misunderstand me. Its not about the actual turn rate. But the failure to deliver turns on the normal schedule is never communicated to me. That is was I don´t like. I always make sure my opponents know when I for whatever reason can´t deliver the turns as I usually do.

In this case Erik said he would send me a turn in the afternoon or at the latest in the evening. No turn showed up until the day after. I think that if you fail to send a turn as advertised I don´t think its unreasonable to send a short mail/message to the other part letting them know?

Its not the first time. But given our prior "discussions" I don´t want to make a big thing out of it. But it annoys the heck out of me because I think its inconsiderate and slightly bad manner. I don´t know if that is just my own upbringing/culture but thats how I feel.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Your game can easily reach '46 and the Allies still never achieve air superiority. You will gain it at sea and on land, but never in the air. That's a sad thing. [:(]

Yeah, sadly that seems like how it will be. [:(]

Have to hand it to Erik though. He has really worked magic with the Japanese industry. Many PBEMs barely have half the losses he has suffered yet his AF is as strong as ever and can overwhelm the allied air force simply using numbers in 45 is pretty impressive.

[princep01]

The price of playing PDU on is a steep one.  Without an adjustment to Allied air reinforcements, it is just an IJ players dream.
 
PDU on is an easy thing to get sucked into because it is not so apparent that it is an aerial game buster early in the war.  But, after investing more than a year of real time playing, the Allied player becomes aware of the implications and then, to avoid wasting the year, must slog on in the face of the result.
 
Ah well, a suppose the game programmers could make a separate air reinforcement table for the Allies with PDU on and return the game to some aerial balance, but I haven't seen much interest in doing that.
 
Something one must just accept once the PDU on/off decision is made. 

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: princep01

The price of playing PDU on is a steep one.  Without an adjustment to Allied air reinforcements, it is just an IJ players dream.

PDU on is an easy thing to get sucked into because it is not so apparent that it is an aerial game buster early in the war.  But, after investing more than a year of real time playing, the Allied player becomes aware of the implications and then, to avoid wasting the year, must slog on in the face of the result.

Ah well, a suppose the game programmers could make a separate air reinforcement table for the Allies with PDU on and return the game to some aerial balance, but I haven't seen much interest in doing that.

Something one must just accept once the PDU on/off decision is made. 

Well put. As I have said many times now I won´t play another GC with PDU ON. Knowing what I know now I would rather not play at all. It just makes the whole air war so strange it takes all the enjoyment out of it.

With PDU OFF I would actually have use of the thousands of Wildcats sitting in the pools. Or the P40s and P39s (well I´ve run out of them now but you know what I mean).

Problem would be to find a Japanese player willing to do it. Most of them seem to have forgotten they all did well enough without it not too long ago before PDU ON became "essential" or "must have". There are exceptions though and I´m closely following fchartons game. Will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

[princep01]

One of your other contributors did raise an interesting point a couple of weeks ago.  In building all these planes, researching and converting facotories to bring on new models, the IJ player my be setting himself up for a late game economic collapse by exhausting supplies prematurely.  So few games progress beyond the end of 1943, it is hard to test this thought, but it is an intersting one.  Once your game is over, I hope you will ask Obvert about this and see what he thinks about it.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: princep01

One of your other contributors did raise an interesting point a couple of weeks ago.  In building all these planes, researching and converting facotories to bring on new models, the IJ player my be setting himself up for a late game economic collapse by exhausting supplies prematurely.  So few games progress beyond the end of 1943, it is hard to test this thought, but it is an intersting one.  Once your game is over, I hope you will ask Obvert about this and see what he thinks about it.

R&D and ramped-up air production is a big drain on supplies. 1100 per point, and if he's been swapping factories to newer models as he completes others, that's another 1000 to 1100 per point... When you're talking about a maximum production of maybe 30M supply over 4 years, there really isn't that much to spare I think.

[JocMeister]

One could always hope the empire is on the brink of total collapse!

I highly doubt it though. Erik is far too methodical and smart to let that happen. But on the other hand he might not have counted on the heavy losses on the ground he has suffered. This might have thrown him off a bit. But I´m sure he has a good reserve of everything tucked away.

Will be very interesting to see his number after the game. Whatever he has done it has worked extremely well!

EDIT: Stupid autocorrect on the phone!

[Bullwinkle58]

It may be my aging memory, but I don't recall any golden era of the past where lots of Japan players chose PDU OFF. There have been a few AAR games that way, but they spent, the ones I read at least, a lot of time bewailing the choice and how they were flying Nates in 1945. I suspect any Japan player who agrees in the present era of the game's history is going to want stiff concessions in return.

[CyrusSpitama]

Wanted to say howdy in your AAR and wish you good luck with your game, despite it being an *enemy* AAR [:D]

I have followed yours and Obvert's AAR somewhat seeking tips for grand strategy and counter strategies.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It may be my aging memory, but I don't recall any golden era of the past where lots of Japan players chose PDU OFF. There have been a few AAR games that way, but they spent, the ones I read at least, a lot of time bewailing the choice and how they were flying Nates in 1945. I suspect any Japan player who agrees in the present era of the game's history is going to want stiff concessions in return.

Perhaps you are right. But fcharton seems to do well so far. They arn´t that far along though. But consider this: Not having the need to spend vast amounts on resources on changing factories and doing lots of R&D and pumping out 1500 Fighters per month and all that PDU ON brings...What could be done with all those resources instead? This I´m really curious on. Could all those saved resources (HI, supply and everything else) be used to stiffen Japanese resistance in other areas.

I refuse to believe the game is "unplayable" with PDU OFF. I´m still convinced this is how the game is meant to be played and would do away with a lot of the silliness and unbalancing we see in the game.

[CyrusSpitama]

If I may comment on this *balance* issues. The game is meant to be enjoyed by two players, yes? The only true way to balance this would be for both sides to have equal assets and abilities. Because of the nature of the game and setup, this is impossible to acheive. To acheive some semblance of balance, concessions must be made by both parties, with the stronger party giving more concessions away. I am pretty sure the record will show that Japan has very little chance of surviving once the game hits '44 (assuming a competent Allied player). It seems to me, this means Japan would receive a few more concessions than the Allies receive.

The major drawback to the current setup for the game is the Allies and Japan have extremely divergent assets and abilities. You must admit, by and large, the later Allied units (of all types) are far superior to anything Japan can field. PDU-OFF means you are further hampering Japan and their long term survival and as a consequence, their enjoyment of the game. PDU-ON should not ( and I do not think it does) give Japan a decisive edge over the Allied. It simply allows Japan to field almost comparable assets vs. the Allied. I saw your issues with the plane pools and it is likely that is one issue that could possibly be addressed via mods.

[Olorin]

Don't worry, soon you will have the bomb. Maybe that will satisfy your appetites. But then I suspect we will hear about how it didn't kill as many as it was "supposed to" and that the game is unbalanced in that respect and a fix must be applied asap.

[Encircled]

Think we've been searching for a fix for the bomb for about sixty years

Don't want to highjack the AAR, but with PDU on, does that mean you can switch any planes to any squadrons?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It may be my aging memory, but I don't recall any golden era of the past where lots of Japan players chose PDU OFF. There have been a few AAR games that way, but they spent, the ones I read at least, a lot of time bewailing the choice and how they were flying Nates in 1945. I suspect any Japan player who agrees in the present era of the game's history is going to want stiff concessions in return.

Perhaps you are right. But fcharton seems to do well so far. They arn´t that far along though. But consider this: Not having the need to spend vast amounts on resources on changing factories and doing lots of R&D and pumping out 1500 Fighters per month and all that PDU ON brings...What could be done with all those resources instead? This I´m really curious on. Could all those saved resources (HI, supply and everything else) be used to stiffen Japanese resistance in other areas.

I refuse to believe the game is "unplayable" with PDU OFF. I´m still convinced this is how the game is meant to be played and would do away with a lot of the silliness and unbalancing we see in the game.

PDU On actually costs more supplies and HI from switching the factories around to streamline R&D. With PDU Off, you can just let the default factories remain as they are and be largely fine, as you'll end up producing the airframes you need for your units but wouldn't use in a PDU On setting.

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Think we've been searching for a fix for the bomb for about sixty years

Don't want to highjack the AAR, but with PDU on, does that mean you can switch any planes to any squadrons?

Any IJA fighter unit can pick any IJA fighter plane, any IJN fighter unit can pick any IJN fighter plane, etc. You can't just change all your Kate units to Betty units, for example. Or Jake/Pete float plane units into Mavis/Emily.

So long as certain conditions (requisite number of planes in the pools, PPs to change from 1E to 2E, etc.) are met, anyway.

[paullus99]

The allied player is normally faced with at least 18 months of getting hammered mercilessly with little or no means of having any real strategic impact on the war....then we get to the middle part where both sides slog it out....then about 18 months of the the Allied Player pounding the heck out of Japan....

Unfortunately, not many games get to the last part, meaning the overall playability from an Allied POV is severely limited.

[Encircled]

Cheers

Is that not the same for the allies?

I know you can't tailor production, but I thought you could switch back and forth?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: CyrusSpitama

If I may comment on this *balance* issues. The game is meant to be enjoyed by two players, yes? The only true way to balance this would be for both sides to have equal assets and abilities. Because of the nature of the game and setup, this is impossible to acheive. To acheive some semblance of balance, concessions must be made by both parties, with the stronger party giving more concessions away. I am pretty sure the record will show that Japan has very little chance of surviving once the game hits '44 (assuming a competent Allied player). It seems to me, this means Japan would receive a few more concessions than the Allies receive.

The major drawback to the current setup for the game is the Allies and Japan have extremely divergent assets and abilities. You must admit, by and large, the later Allied units (of all types) are far superior to anything Japan can field. PDU-OFF means you are further hampering Japan and their long term survival and as a consequence, their enjoyment of the game. PDU-ON should not ( and I do not think it does) give Japan a decisive edge over the Allied. It simply allows Japan to field almost comparable assets vs. the Allied. I saw your issues with the plane pools and it is likely that is one issue that could possibly be addressed via mods.

Hi, Welcome! [:)]

Very good points all of them. I guess a lot of things depend on how you define "surviving". Japan is after all "meant" to be losing in 44 just as the allied player is meant to lose in 42. Here is where the AV system kicks in. Is PDU OFF the same thing as making a AV victory impossible for the Japanese player? I don´t have a clue! [:)] But I hope not. And I doubt it as the developers have said the game is meant to be played with PDU OFF. But I don´t know if there have been any PDU OFF games that ended with a Japanese victory or draw? Anyone else know?

There is no denying the allied abilities on the water and ground in 44-45 is far, far superior to anything the Japanese have at this point. But the same thing is true for the allies in 42 and a bit into 43. Again I think the VP system come into play. If the Jap player can avoid a allied AV in 45 this automatically shifts the victory levels two levels in Japanese favor. So essentially if the Japanese player can avoid a allied AV the worst they can do is a draw if I have understood it correctly. Someone can probably correct me if I´m wrong.

Regarding the enjoyment levels I can assure you that the air aspect of the game have been of little enjoyment so far for me. [;)] I have stated my gripes with this so many times now so I won´t get into another rant about it! [:D]

[CyrusSpitama]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

The allied player is normally faced with at least 18 months of getting hammered mercilessly with little or no means of having any real strategic impact on the war....then we get to the middle part where both sides slog it out....then about 18 months of the the Allied Player pounding the heck out of Japan....

Unfortunately, not many games get to the last part, meaning the overall playability from an Allied POV is severely limited.

This is another major drawback to the game setup. The Allies can easily handle anything Japan can dish out in '44 and beyond. The problem is getting the game to the point where the Allies enjoy their superiority. This is where two reasonable adults find ways to ensure this part of the game is reached. This would not be the first game played where this issue arises...