Japanese defensive strategy...

[Rendova]

I think there should be a really good chance of them lunching but why is it AUTOMATIC? For crying out loud if you launch the first strike and there is carrier force 1 hex away there is a chance your planes will fly 3 hexes the other way and wipe out an 3 AP 1 AK supply convoy, so why shouldn't there be a chance that the counter strike will go after 2 PT boats? Also I heard it mentioned that this is the case in UV? It isn't because I have had my carriers hit an enemy carrier force and the enemy a/c launched an attack on my replenishment TF never hitting my CV's. Which I didn't mind, but I don't think my AO crew was real happy about it.

[Raverdave]

To answer the original question of this thread.............take Hawaii and everything west of that, take Darwin and everything north of that.[:)]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, In all of WW2 there were no cases of CV launching a strike against enemy CV where that enemy did not launch a strike in return.

Technically, the Philippine Sea might qualify. The Japanese launched all the strikes
one the first day---the US just defended. Then on the second day the US launched
the only strikes (Japs had nothing left to strike with).

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl


I also hope that the LR CAP mission will be eliminated from the options for CV based a/c. It has no historical precedent.

Not sure about this comment. Where did the fighter cover over initial Guadalcanal/Tulagi landings come from? I don't think an all or nothing LR CAP is very accurate, however. Can't find any precedent where CAP over CVs sacrificed for LR CAP missions. Only a small percentage were ever used as CVs were more valuable.

[mogami]

In the WITP present model assigning a CV fighter group to LRCAP in the same hex as the TF will allow a percentage of the group to protect targets 2 hexes away. So you place the CV 120 miles from Lunga with this setting and both the CV and Lunga have CAP. Since the number of fighters that will engage is higher the closer to take off base the CV will have the majority.

[mdiehl]

Hi, In all of WW2 there were no cases of CV launching a strike against enemy CV where that enemy did not launch a strike in return.

Errr... well, there was Midway. Three IJN CVs sunk before they could launch a counterstrike against Yorktown.

[paullus99]

I thought Yorktown was attacked twice? Were both attacks from Hiryu?

[mogami]

Hi, In WITP terms the 3 IJN CV had already launched an AM strike. The surviving CV launched a PM strike.

[mdiehl]

Uh yeah, but it wasn't a counterstrike against the US fleet. It was a mission against Midway. In UV terms's that'd be Airfield Attack.

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: mdiehl


I also hope that the LR CAP mission will be eliminated from the options for CV based a/c. It has no historical precedent.

Not sure about this comment. Where did the fighter cover over initial Guadalcanal/Tulagi landings come from? I don't think an all or nothing LR CAP is very accurate, however. Can't find any precedent where CAP over CVs sacrificed for LR CAP missions. Only a small percentage were ever used as CVs were more valuable.

You are correct. In "Guadalcanal", Frank details at least one LRCAP mission by the US -- Fletcher's task force on Aug. 7, 1942, covering the landings. He also refers to IJN use of carrier aircraft to cover landings in November (particularly, the miserable failure of Junyo's LR CAP missions, when Enterprise & Cactus planes devastated incoming transports).

[mdiehl]

Ok I'll withdraw the objection to LR CAP.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Uh yeah, but it wasn't a counterstrike against the US fleet. It was a mission against Midway. In UV terms's that'd be Airfield Attack.

Hi, Yes but the fact they had already flown a strike would prevent their launching a counter strike before the PM phase. In fact they were launching when attacked but UV/WITP limits airgroups to 1 AM and 1 PM (depending on setting) mission. The USN strike was an AM launch. So in WITP terms the IJN would have launched a counter strike if they had not been set to airfield attack and already flown. There is no way to actually duplicate Midway verbatim in WITP because in WITP the IJN strike would still be in the air when the CV were hit by the USN strike.

[mdiehl]

So, if a CV TF (all it TF A) is undetected and launches an airstrike against another CV TF (call it TF B), the targeted TFB automatically detects TFA and launches a strike against TFA?

[mogami]

Hi, Pretty much (provided of course it is set to naval attack)

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Ok I'll withdraw the objection to LR CAP.

That was uncharacteristically easy. What gives?[;)]

[mdiehl]

It's player neutral. Like the CV autostrike feature when CVs are set to naval attack. And there's historical precedent. I'm sure it will get used more in WitP since it gets used more in UV, than was historical practice, but I'm not sure it changes anything much.

[mogami]

Hi, Can you imagine the feedback from players who had scouts out but were still subjected to "undected" strikes and had no counterstrike.
I think the game raises the detection level of a TF that launches a strike to where it is detected and the 2 strikes are assumed to both be in the air prior to the first arriving. There are no perfect solutions other then making UV/WITP 10 minute turns where the players exercise tactical control of TF's. Given the 6 hour nature of airphase (am and then pm)
Also I think both air phases occur after all movement has been executed.
In a more perfect system there would be am ship movement and pm ship movement. (I might be wrong but it appears to me after many hours of playing that ships move at night and then move again before the first air phase but not before the 2nd air phase. This is what allows TF's to close to a target bombard and then be out of range of air attack (to all but long range aircraft)
Aircombat TF's will do some reaction if an enemy aircombat TF is detected. A aircombat TF that is subject to attack from enemy TF that is currently out of range will attempt to close the range and launch before they are attacked. Many players complain about this but they fail to realize that without such reaction they would under go an attack without launching a counter strike. The real complaint is when CV that are damaged beyond flight ops abilty and are located at a base with CAP react out from under the protection and still do not launch a counter strike. Prehaps CV unable to conduct air ops should remain in friendly base and if already in open sea "react" away from the enemy. (hopefully getting beyond strike range)

There will always be items that bother players. CV actions being among those considered critical to the resolution of the war need special consideration.

[Rendova]

If the carrier gets struck first then launches a couterstike does it do so at a reduced rate (ie if a carrier has flood 51% in the initial strike does it launch a/c in the couter strike) when is the counterstrike considered to be launched? because if if is after the ships have taken damage, then its still like you got in one free shot get get hit by a lesser blow.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: Rendova

If the carrier gets struck first then launches a couterstike does it do so at a reduced rate (ie if a carrier has flood 51% in the initial strike does it launch a/c in the couter strike) when is the counterstrike considered to be launched? because if if is after the ships have taken damage, then its still like you got in one free shot get get hit by a lesser blow.

There is really no such thing as a first strike ... CV's launch search, then launch attacks ... the aircraft are in the air when the opposing strikes hit. You might find yourself having nowhere to land when returning from your strike, but you will get to fly. The afternoon phase will obviously take into account the results of the morning strikes.

I can see where you are heading with this ... a surprise strike as such where the enemy still has all his planes on the deck. Because of the sighting rule that causes CV's launching a strike to be +1, the detection level is will always be at least 1 and barring weather, planes will fly.

(I don't particularly agree with the sighting rule personally but that is the way is has been since UV 1.0, if you are too cheap to fly planes to search, you should be subject to a unannounced strike)

[mogami]

Hi All strikes (air missions) in a phase (am or pm) are considered to be in the air at the same time.
If TFA launches a strike at TFB TFB launches one at TFA and the strikes are both in the air. Damage to a CV would be in effect before the next air phase and could prevent launch of another strike (You would be able to predict this because it would also be unable to recover aircraft from the first strike and they would redirect to another CV/airfield or crash)