Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: koniu
Note that this is kamikaze attack.
Whatever altitude Obvert will set them they will always attack at 100Ft.(similar to torpedo attack)
Also i read somewhere that approach altitude is always 11k and setting kami unit on different altitude will not change that. it is hardcoded
Probably Your radar detect them when they where already going down to attack altitude or this is just FOW

Didn´t consider that. Good point!

I wonder when this was hardcoded ... after Nemo demonstrating the effectiveness of Kami's in a layered approach of ~40K feet to 100 feet -- splitting CAP?
If so .. you know what altitude Kami's will start their run ...

In my opinion, Kami's point out a problem in detection at the target hex .. you can roll over a bunch of DD screens with no detection to suddenly surprise the target TF [8|]

[paullus99]

Of course, that was the whole point of those lone or small groups of DEs that the US Navy put out there...to give advanced warning of air raids and kamikazes.....too bad that isn't modeled in the game.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Of course, that was the whole point of those lone or small groups of DEs that the US Navy put out there...to give advanced warning of air raids and kamikazes.....too bad that isn't modeled in the game.

I have already gotten into religious arguments deteriorating into personal attacks with members of this forum ...
simply the current model is not going to change ... so one has to forget history or common sense and figure out an optimal strategy
I am not sure yet if the game solution is one huge stack when facing Kami's .. that is multiple TF's in one hex with bleeding CAP or multiple CVE TF's Splitting attacks up that when combined with uncoordinated attacks produce an attack profile that cannot overwhelm flak.
Jury is still out for me ...

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I´ll be shocking into 150.000 troops. Possible with pretty high forts...not feeling very confident I´ll admit

It might be very important to keep bombing Nanning [as you will I know] but especially the day of the actual crossing / shock attack.
Not so much for casualties but disruption and supply. It seems that % of disruption is a direct modifier of both
AV [getting the IJ to retreat from those forts] and Firepower, and this result has got to be assumed as you
because as know it is not reported in the CR. [Just a reminder .. [8D] ]

But all those 2E's and 4E's have to produce a lot of disruption [;)] Now we pray to Odin that your planes bomb on the
turn of the crossing ...

Yeah, My plan is to pound them from the air up until the crossing. But results this turn was pretty disappointing. Only 350-450 casualties from 800 planes...it was thunderstorms raging though. But it could potentially mean VERY high forts. The terrain is "only" x2. I´m going to give it another day and hope for better weather...If things doesn´t improve I might cancel the crossing...

[Crackaces]

There is always crossing at another point while keeping the forces pinned at Nanning ... In fact, securing the hexsides might be prudent if a siege develops ..

[JocMeister]

Yeah, Thing is time. I can always go south along the coast and veer north later. But its slow going on those roads...I was hoping to gain some here. But I don´t want to wreck myself to buy two weeks. Because if I do I´ll be stuck at Nanning instead. [:)]

[JocMeister]

To tired to do the update tonight. Not much interference with the Naha unloading. Must troops are off but some guns and motorized support are still on the ships. I decided to hang around another day.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]18th-19th March 1945[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

New day, new energy! [:)]

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Destination Okinawa
------------------------
On the 18th we sink an entire Japanese convoy just North of Okinawa. At first I thought it might have been a failed CAP trap but its too far out from CAP to be that. So most likely this was a mistake of some sort.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Amami Oshima at 95,61

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 116
SB2C-4 Helldiver x 37
TBM-3 Avenger x 31

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBM-3 Avenger: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
AMC Bankok Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
AK Asaka Maru, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
AV Sanyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AK Goyo Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
AK Kirishima Maru, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
AV Kimikawa Maru, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AK Amagisan Maru, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AK Awazisan Maru, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
AK Kyushu Maru, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Yamasimo Maru, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk
E W-24, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Amami Oshima at 95,61

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
SB2C-4 Helldiver x 28

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AMC Bankok Maru, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
AK Kirishima Maru, and is sunk
AK Awazisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
AV Hokuroku Maru, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
E Hiburi, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
E Etoforu, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
E Kunashiri, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Good haul of ships. Those AKs are no doubt still very useful for him. On the 19th everything is unloaded and we now have 150k supply and a 350 plane CAP up. I have mines and some big CD guns in place but as we all know by now that no protection from bombardments. So I´m going to keep the fleet a couple of hexes south of Okinawa. If Erik decide to try a naval bombardment it will be very risky for him. I have 2 Fletcher TFs covering Naha + 6 subs and some PTs. This will probably be enough to slow him down enough so he will be within range of the CVs in the morning.

Using the Allied capabilities to stay at sea indefinitely is a blessing. Sorties and planes are replenished whenever needed. [:)]

The KB (or parts of it) is on station between China and Formosa. Not sure what the intention is with this. There are still 1500 Fighters on station on Formosa.

I´m going to move more stuff in to Okinawa in the coming weeks. The method I used with cheap ships covered by the fleet will be used this time too. So LSTs and AKs will be used. I´ll also stationing more PTs and an AGP in place. Once Nago is in control and built up too its time to start thinking about the next set of invasions in the chain.

The first attack on Nago did well but failed to take the base. We are resting FAT and DIS and will have another go in a couple of days.

Ground combat at Nago (95,65)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 90420 troops, 1754 guns, 1498 vehicles, Assault Value = 4038

Defending force 18755 troops, 443 guns, 128 vehicles, Assault Value = 290

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 5 [&o][&o][&o]

Allied adjusted assault: 1668

Japanese adjusted defense: 610

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 5) [:)]

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 5

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
3957 casualties reported
Squads: 62 destroyed, 197 disabled
Non Combat: 11 destroyed, 101 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 37 disabled
Guns lost 113 (33 destroyed, 80 disabled)
Vehicles lost 16 (2 destroyed, 14 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1388 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 215 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 13 disabled
Guns lost 30 (2 destroyed, 28 disabled)
Vehicles lost 17 (1 destroyed, 16 disabled)

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]China[/font]
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I´m starting to get doubts about the crossing. Looks like Erik reinforced with 30.000 men. On top of that the strikes rained in today...

I´m going to give it one more day before cancelling the crossing. Its really important I don´t wreck my troops for nothing.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]P47N[/font]
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First two squadrons are upgraded! With a 460 MPH max speed these are killers. I only get 100 per months but they will boost the CAP defense significantly.

We have had no air combat since Eriks last failed attempts with the Ki-83. The air war have turned in to a snooze fest. I can´t sustain any losses and Erik is unwilling to sustain them so we both do nothing.

Not how it should be IMO...its just boring. For both sides. Another point to consider when arguing in favor of PDU ON and the completely unhistorical Japanese air industry. Whats the point of having it when the allied side is so completely outnumbered the only thing that makes sense is to avoid combat? So the Japanese player sit there with thousands of planes and pilots and nothing for them to do. There has to be a balance in this or its pointless and becomes boring for both players. I havn´t asked Erik but I bet he finds this situation pretty boring too.

I´ve shun air battle like the plague for 3-4 months now. With the exception of clearing the skies over Manila I have done NOTHING offensively besides hitting thin air in advance for the bombers. Despite that my pools are still only good enough for two, perhaps 3 days of fighting.

Pool numbers (Fighters):
P51: 120
P38: 340 (this plane is only good for escort)
P47D25: 90
P47N: 10

Corsair 1D: 105
Corsair 1A: 320 (This is the only fighter most of the USMC can use without paying PPs so I´m very careful with this model)
Hellcat-5: 600 (Mostly used for escort. So this can be drained in one CV battle)

Pool numbers (Bombers):
B24: 12
B29-1: 12
B29-25: 4
B29B: 0
"2Es": 200 in various models

[Powloon]

Congratulations on the smooth running of the Okinawa operation. I can't believe your opponent has stuffed Formosa to the gills with troops and planes but neglected to garrison Okinawa at least strongly enough to take a tithe from you in blood and time [X(].

Regarding China I am a little hazy on the river crossing rules but I thought that if you had a certain proportion of force in the hex that that follow on forces would not shock attack when moving into the hex (could be wrong about that). Is the force that you have got flanking Nanning on the road from the North large enough to enable this condition?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Powloon

Congratulations on the smooth running of the Okinawa operation. I can't believe your opponent has stuffed Formosa to the gills with troops and planes but neglected to garrison Okinawa at least strongly enough to take a tithe from you in blood and time [X(].

Regarding China I am a little hazy on the river crossing rules but I thought that if you had a certain proportion of force in the hex that that follow on forces would not shock attack when moving into the hex (could be wrong about that). Is the force that you have got flanking Nanning on the road from the North large enough to enable this condition?

Thanks! [:)]

Yeah, I was pretty happy to see Okinawa almost completely neglected. I don´t know if it was part of a deliberate strategy or simply a huge mistake. Guess we will know once Erik reads this. [:)]

You are right about the river crossing. But it only applies if the hex side is already open! If not it will trigger a shock attack regardless. And I think you have to have 1/3rd of the AV already crossed.

If I´m incorrect I´m sure someone will corrects me shortly. [:D]

[paullus99]

If you have the room to maneuver in China - you should use it....pin his stack, then just go around...it may take more time, but you're not just butting your head against a wall.

Do you have armor available?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

If you have the room to maneuver in China - you should use it....pin his stack, then just go around...it may take more time, but you're not just butting your head against a wall.

Do you have armor available?

I´m starting to lean towards this too. That rivercrossing is scary! [X(]

I do have armor in place. The "Combined Motorized Army" of 2 Motorized IDs + some 500 heavy tanks (2500 AV). They already started moving south last turn. [:)]

[ny59giants]

Any intel or recon info on the troop count of the bases near Okinawa?? I'm finding the LST and LCI are a good combo for quick invasions as they unload in a day or less. If you have enough supply and fuel at Naha, create barges until you get enough to lift LCUs to take the bases nearby. Extras, you can disband back into the pool.

OT - I still feel the Americans should be getting a few full FG (75 planes) as reinforcements vs them broken down in 3 x 25 plane groups. 1 in '42, 2 in '43, 3 in '44, and maybe another 3 or 4 in '45. Since Japan gets the production numbers, the Allies should have something to combat them now. P-47 and P-51 fighter sweeps would do wonders to break through. [:)]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Any intel or recon info on the troop count of the bases near Okinawa?? I'm finding the LST and LCI are a good combo for quick invasions as they unload in a day or less. If you have enough supply and fuel at Naha, create barges until you get enough to lift LCUs to take the bases nearby. Extras, you can disband back into the pool.

OT - I still feel the Americans should be getting a few full FG (75 planes) as reinforcements vs them broken down in 3 x 25 plane groups. 1 in '42, 2 in '43, 3 in '44, and maybe another 3 or 4 in '45. Since Japan gets the production numbers, the Allies should have something to combat them now. P-47 and P-51 fighter sweeps would do wonders to break through. [:)]

I havn´t gotten to that yet. I want to keep an eye on the Jap bases around Oki for a while longer. I´ve started shifting some recon from DEI that should arrive in 2-3 days!

I certainly agree about the FGs. If I had 2-3 of them to use for sweeps a daylight strat bombing campaign might be feasible. As it looks now I will be sweeping with 25 plane squadrons against 500 plane CAP. I would burn out the entire allied air force in a couple of days.

Or I will have to do it like Speedy did. Use the CV fleet for LRCAP/Sweep of the HI... with the CVs I can get close enough for LRCAP to be able to help out.

[JocMeister]

Will be very interesting to see if Erik tries anything against Naha now that I have a solid CAP up. I don´t think he will from the air. But he might feel temped to try for a naval bombardment with the Fast BBs. The only defense I have against this (since mines and CD guns doesn´t work) it to try and force him to eat up so much OPS he will find himself inside the Allied CVs strike radius in the morning. I have two PT TFs, 8 subs and 2 ship Fletcher TFs sitting at Naha.

He have suffered some big losses before when trying to high speed runs to dash in and out during the night. If I remember correctly he lost 2 CAs + 6-8DDs outside Akyab this way. Another 2 CAs outside PM and a couple of more outside Darwin.

When I think about it this is probably the single biggest cause of Japanese CA losses during the war. So that might make him a tad careful.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: paullus99

If you have the room to maneuver in China - you should use it....pin his stack, then just go around...it may take more time, but you're not just butting your head against a wall.

Do you have armor available?

I´m starting to lean towards this too. That rivercrossing is scary! [X(]

I do have armor in place. The "Combined Motorized Army" of 2 Motorized IDs + some 500 heavy tanks (2500 AV). They already started moving south last turn. [:)]

I agree with Paullus99 that this is a very viable strategy. Pinning does not even require 1:2 AV in this case because once you secure the hexsides, the lace of supply will reduce firepower and Attack Value.
I am using this operational level paradigm right now against an Invasion in India. I put just enough forces in the target hex and secure the supply lines so the IJ have their forces pinned. To breakout requires reinforcements.
In your case, there are no IJ reinforcements to relive the forces ....[8D]

[paullus99]

Every division you tie down in China is one less you'll have to face later somewhere else....

[JocMeister]

I can´t really pin the stack down without going around. And he is going to see that from a mile away. But flanking him means he will either have to withdraw or be cut off... [:)]