Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: House Stark

Perhaps someone needs to mod a version of Scenario 1/2 that would make PDU off a viable choice for the Japanese player by slightly improving the air group upgrade paths. Something that's in between PDU off's "50% Nates" and PDU on's "75% Franks with a few Tojos and Oscars sprinkled in for sacrificial purposes".

[:-]

Perhaps someone have to correct this. I play only Japan, and only PDU off. In 1943 there's not many Nate groups left, pretty much every group gets upgraded plane model.

Air units with Nates (and early Oscars) are for training. Nate is as good training plane as Tojo.

[CaptBeefheart]

Joc: Regarding Command Modern Air/Naval Combat, I picked it up and have been doing a few light scenarios to get better at controlling my forces. For instance, it was no fun having my cruisers end up within range of North Korean shore batteries. It promises to be a great game with unlimited scenario potential.

Cheers,
CC

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg
Not saying you are right or wrong - just my thoughts. Hope you don't mind!

I don´t mind one bit. [:)]

Its hard to try and get my core thinking across. Partly because I´m not really sure how to put it into words. As I see it its not a JFB vs AFB issue. Its a GAME issue effecting both sides in a negative way. The "fun factor".

I´ll try to explain a little bit more. Sorry if it sounds confusing and is a bit of a rant. [:)]

We pretty much already established that trying to gain air superiority is not a achievable or worthwhile goal against a competent Japanese player right? So the best way is to play defensively (with some exceptions of course that was mentioned earlier) and avoid combat. This means reverting back to 42-43 allied tactics of jumping in and out. Or relying on a huge CAP that makes it not worthwhile for the Japanese player to try something. But this is where the problem begins as I see it...

Whats the best tactics for a Japanese player at this point? Defensive right? No need to waste planes and pilots on tackling a massive CAP with thousands of planes. Just sit back and let the allied player come to you. After all you have superior numbers and to some extent better planes. All you have to do is stay defensive.

So now you have two sides that both play defensively. No side have any incitement to do something and that is the core of the matter. Its an unintended flaw in the game design. On several occasions now we have had thousands of fighters just a few hexes from each other. I´m not questioning the fact of the situation. I´m questioning whether or not this is how we want the game to be?.

I think there are several reasons for this. One is the Japanese air force vs the Allied. One side is forced to fight defensively due to the nature of things while the other is forced to do so because of limited numbers.

Another problem as I see it is defense vs offense. (Basically what Michael said in an earlier post) Its very easy to put of a massive CAP over a base with hundreds if not thousands of planes. But its almost impossible to do the same on the offense unless you have a level 9 base within 2-3 hexes which seldom happens. This works reasonably well in the early game when numbers isn´t that high. Sweeping with a 25 plane squadrons against 100-150 fighters is still doable. But when you try to sweep with 25 planes against 500-1500 planes its just suicide. This is probably a much bigger problem than PDU ON/OFF. Basically defense is too powerful compared to offense.

This is just one of many issues I think the game suffers from. But this community is unique in the way that while every other multiplayer or online game community realize their game have to evolve with the players and new tactics/tricks/gamestyle, this community shuns and despises any kind of change. You arn´t even allowed to discuss perceived balancing issues or change. As soon as you try to raise a discussion, concern, or thought you will get instantly slammed. This is what will destroy the game in the end. The time span is just much longer than other games because there are no other games out there that take years to finish...

Personally this will most likely be the first two and last two games for me. Human beings will always push the boundaries of what is possible. In this game the boundaries have been pushed so far (on both sides) that the end product just isn´t much fun. This game needs to adjust to these extreme situations in order to stay fun and competitive in a way that makes people want to play it. If it doesn´t people will stop playing it in the end. But this will never happen with this game because there is a very vocal minority (I hope its a minority..) that abhors change and refuses to see the need for that change and balancing to happen.

Look at how many players that has disappeared over the last two years. How many new players have come to fill that void? Look at the number of AARs and posts on the forum. Now tell me if you think we are heading in the right direction...

Turned into something a bit off topic I think. But the heart of what I´m trying to get at is in there somewhere. [:)]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Joc: Regarding Command Modern Air/Naval Combat, I picked it up and have been doing a few light scenarios to get better at controlling my forces. For instance, it was no fun having my cruisers end up within range of North Korean shore batteries. It promises to be a great game with unlimited scenario potential.

Cheers,
CC

Hey CC, [:)]

Excellent news. I´m currently reading through the entire forum. Really impressed with the number of scenarios already created and excellent interaction with the developers. I think this one might end up under the Christmas tree! [:)]

[Wuffer]

Joc,
I could not agree stronger; your analysis of the offensive/defensive values is the reason why I stopped it totally. Could really understand your frustation. Your situation reminds me as being Britain in 1943 but without the USA...

1. As the Japanese player did neither repeat the historical failure of underestimating the sub war nor the need for training pilots etc., you are facing a total different and much more complicated situation. (Add to this Moose’s point of surrendering your strongest asset – bombing his oil from the beginning.)

2. As the whole game is an abstraction and not a simulation, the design implicates a weakness in some aspects – you will allways playing the engine, just a few examples:

command and control centers – could not be destroyed
infrastructure in the homeland (transporting stuff for production!) – more or less immune (so, by design any strat-bomb- and sub-campaign is weaken before even beginning)
stored HI-production.... – hm, obvious!
skilled workers in the armanent and a/c-factories – appearing magically (not modelled)
skilled technicans and constructing designers for world class aircraft – they hatch and slip ot of supply!?!

We could list much more, but the picture is clear: You did not have air superiority. And you won’t get it. Period.


3. What was historically done, is interesting, but didn’t really help you and led easily to false assumptions as McArthur’s very first achievement was to gain absolutely and complete air superiority in 1943. As we know, the Allies could bomb at will due to their numbers and advanced technology – not exactly the situation you face! To matters worse, you are seriously handicaped to historical oob’s on your side, for example the un-armoured B29’s, which is simple completely absurd in this context.

4. All these points are interesting to discuss, especially the question of a super-strong Japan, but they did not help you at the moment.
Why did you invade Okinawa? Because it was historically done and belong to a coherant strategy? Or because it help you NOW and HERE?

What are his weak points in this game?
Forget about daylight bombing his a/c-factories, I’m afraid.

OTH, some aspects did favour the Allies’ side as well – the battle of Okinawa was much harder and bloody IRL.

[JocMeister]

My Okinawa invasion took place so I can base B29s within normal range of the HI. Doing an Marianas campaign turned out to be impossible due to massed NFs taking out half a B29 for each airborne NFs. That being said its probably good from a gameplay perspective that the game won´t get decided with a Marianas campaign... Okinawa also means I can start using B24s in a strat bombing role on the HI. This is probably most important. The B29 replacement rate is not enough to take the losses of a strategic bombing campaign (even at night). I can now spread the losses on 140 planes per months instead of 80. Very important aspect.

I have no doubt in my mind I will win this game (in a AV victory). As soon as I start the strat bombing campaign again it will start to add VPs pretty fast. The thing I´m finding is that its not particularly fun. This is what I´m trying to get at. I have to do it by night. For anyone who has read this AAR that is VERY obvious. I don´t have the numbers to conduct a daylight campaign. I would run out of fighters and bombers in just a couple of raids.

Now the thing I´m asking myself is: Am I having fun? The answer to that is simply: No. By being forced to bomb at night I don´t have to deal with air superiority, sweeps, escort, fighter rotation, fighter bases and everything related to that. All I have to do is get bases within normal B29 range and after that its just a matter of letting them fly as soon as FAT is within reasonable levels and wait for the VPs to tick in. Nothing more to it. I just feel I´m missing out on a huge chunk of the game.

Same with the Okinawa situation. Erik has masses of airfields and fighters all around me. I should be working on getting fighter bases up and start working on gaining air superiority and close air fields before the next landing. But there is no point in it. Its far, far better to just move the fleet in when the times come and let him fly against me. I have a 1200 plane CAP up over the fleet. He can´t touch it. I know this, Erik knows this. Everyone knows this is how it works. But is this how it should be? Is this how we want it to work?

I can tell you from being in the middle of it that its boring. Plane and simple. Its just no fun. And I can´t imagine Erik is having much more fun. We just sit there and stare each other down. Both stuck in a situation where it makes no sense to act. This has been the game for the last 3 months when I realized there is no point in doing anything in the air. So I just hang back under a massive CAP where I need to protect bombers or ships and do nothing more. And Erik do nothing. Sounds like much fun? [:)]

[Mike McCreery]

Would it be more fun for Erik if he had less planes?

The allies are always going to win if the player is competent. You seem to want to make it more strong on the allied side which would indicate the Japanese player would have less fun right?

It is a game

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]29th March 1945[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Well, more of nothing.

------------------------
Destination Okinawa
------------------------
Looks like Erik is letting me unload in peace. Still can´t get a fix on the KB. Could he have snuck away somewhere? He still have loads of ASW forces in the area. I´ll start dealing with them next turn. I also shifted the Fleet a bit too see if I can get to anything. Most likely I´ll just have my strike fly into so massive CAP on Formosa but I´ll give it a try. If there is something I can spare its strike planes.

------------------------
China
------------------------
Erik bombs my CMA causing little damage. I´ll try to get a LRCAP up tomorrow but its 4 hexes so I´ll most likely get skewered by the Frank sweeps.

Two more days and my small Burma corps shock attack across the river towards Tsuyung. I´m bombing here daily causing around 1000-1500 casualties per day depending on weather. Been doing that for 2-3 weeks now. Erik troops must be gutted by now. No idea why he just doesn´t pull back under CAP. Odd.

I´ll get some maps up tonight!

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

Would it be more fun for Erik if he had less planes?

The allies are always going to win if the player is competent. You seem to want to make it more strong on the allied side which would indicate the Japanese player would have less fun right?

It is a game

No. Not once have I said that.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]30th March 1945[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Only seen the replay. Take this with a grain of salt as we almost always get hit with a massive sync problems whenever there is lots of action. So it might as well have ended with the entire Allied navy sunk.

Looks like Erik tried for a 8 hex strike again. Not sure I should be happy or sad that I moved...

------------------------
Destination Okinawa
------------------------
I´ll update when I get the turn but looks like Erik skewered himself on the allied CAP. I estimate Japanese losses to be around 1000-1200 planes for a single kami hit on CVL Cabot (not even "on fire" listed)

I think perhaps one of the strikes where from the KB. But not certain. Could have been all LBA.

[JocMeister]

Airlosses!

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

Have Japanese players been winning the game more often because of this imbalance in the air war being discussed in the last couple pages of posts?

It seems to me most players want to sign up on the "Opponents Wanted" forum as Allies, leading one to believe the Allies "win" more often? Is that true? What percentage of PBEM games are won by the Allies versus the Japanese?

I guess what I'm really getting at, are the Allies really at a disadvantage with the current VP and air system? Seems more like the burden of surviving and winning is on the Japanese...

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg
Not saying you are right or wrong - just my thoughts. Hope you don't mind!

I don´t mind one bit. [:)]

Its hard to try and get my core thinking across. Partly because I´m not really sure how to put it into words. As I see it its not a JFB vs AFB issue. Its a GAME issue effecting both sides in a negative way. The "fun factor".

I´ll try to explain a little bit more. Sorry if it sounds confusing and is a bit of a rant. [:)]

We pretty much already established that trying to gain air superiority is not a achievable or worthwhile goal against a competent Japanese player right? So the best way is to play defensively (with some exceptions of course that was mentioned earlier) and avoid combat. This means reverting back to 42-43 allied tactics of jumping in and out. Or relying on a huge CAP that makes it not worthwhile for the Japanese player to try something. But this is where the problem begins as I see it...

Whats the best tactics for a Japanese player at this point? Defensive right? No need to waste planes and pilots on tackling a massive CAP with thousands of planes. Just sit back and let the allied player come to you. After all you have superior numbers and to some extent better planes. All you have to do is stay defensive.

So now you have two sides that both play defensively. No side have any incitement to do something and that is the core of the matter. Its an unintended flaw in the game design. On several occasions now we have had thousands of fighters just a few hexes from each other. I´m not questioning the fact of the situation. I´m questioning whether or not this is how we want the game to be?.

I think there are several reasons for this. One is the Japanese air force vs the Allied. One side is forced to fight defensively due to the nature of things while the other is forced to do so because of limited numbers.

Another problem as I see it is defense vs offense. (Basically what Michael said in an earlier post) Its very easy to put of a massive CAP over a base with hundreds if not thousands of planes. But its almost impossible to do the same on the offense unless you have a level 9 base within 2-3 hexes which seldom happens. This works reasonably well in the early game when numbers isn´t that high. Sweeping with a 25 plane squadrons against 100-150 fighters is still doable. But when you try to sweep with 25 planes against 500-1500 planes its just suicide. This is probably a much bigger problem than PDU ON/OFF. Basically defense is too powerful compared to offense.

This is just one of many issues I think the game suffers from. But this community is unique in the way that while every other multiplayer or online game community realize their game have to evolve with the players and new tactics/tricks/gamestyle, this community shuns and despises any kind of change. You arn´t even allowed to discuss perceived balancing issues or change. As soon as you try to raise a discussion, concern, or thought you will get instantly slammed. This is what will destroy the game in the end. The time span is just much longer than other games because there are no other games out there that take years to finish...

Personally this will most likely be the first two and last two games for me. Human beings will always push the boundaries of what is possible. In this game the boundaries have been pushed so far (on both sides) that the end product just isn´t much fun. This game needs to adjust to these extreme situations in order to stay fun and competitive in a way that makes people want to play it. If it doesn´t people will stop playing it in the end. But this will never happen with this game because there is a very vocal minority (I hope its a minority..) that abhors change and refuses to see the need for that change and balancing to happen.

Look at how many players that has disappeared over the last two years. How many new players have come to fill that void? Look at the number of AARs and posts on the forum. Now tell me if you think we are heading in the right direction...

Turned into something a bit off topic I think. But the heart of what I´m trying to get at is in there somewhere. [:)]

The bolded part, right at the beginning there, is actually where I disagree with you. I think the results you've posted here show that, if anything, you have a mild amount of air superiority, even globally, due to superior airframes. Fighter-to-fighter, anyway. He certainly doesn't have superiority over you. And since our perspectives differ starting at the premise, well...

Edit - Another point where I disagree: the underlined part - you have an incentive to play offensively. You have to take ground. He has to defend it. If you play defensively, you won't win. Push forward, establish your local air superiority. Because you can have overwhelming air superiority in one or two places if you really want it, and if you set it up. If this means you have to island hop and can't leap frog because he's doing his job defensively, fine - shouldn't that be what happens in a good game anyway? And this is where time comes in. You've got what, 8 months left to get to 2:1?

Just keep pushing forward, make Japan suffer moderate defeat after moderate defeat. A hole in the ship here, a hole there, and eventually it will sink (...the ship is his ability to resist...). If he keeps meeting you on your pushes, eventually he's going to be ground down so far that he won't have any teeth left. That's the whole point of this war!

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Have Japanese players been winning the game more often because of this imbalance in the air war being discussed in the last couple pages of posts?

It seems to me most players want to sign up on the "Opponents Wanted" forum as Allies, leading one to believe the Allies "win" more often? Is that true? What percentage of PBEM games are won by the Allies versus the Japanese?

I guess what I'm really getting at, are the Allies really at a disadvantage with the current VP and air system? Seems more like the burden of surviving and winning is on the Japanese...

I think if players would play the game as designed, it would be fine. Don't cripple yourself with rules on no strat bombing, maneuver band limitations, etc. Play for VPs and do what the game lets you do. There's a set of victory conditions for a reason!

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Have Japanese players been winning the game more often because of this imbalance in the air war being discussed in the last couple pages of posts?

It seems to me most players want to sign up on the "Opponents Wanted" forum as Allies, leading one to believe the Allies "win" more often? Is that true? What percentage of PBEM games are won by the Allies versus the Japanese?

I guess what I'm really getting at, are the Allies really at a disadvantage with the current VP and air system? Seems more like the burden of surviving and winning is on the Japanese...

It has nothing to do with "sides" or "winning". The allies arn´t at a disadvantage if played in a certain way. My point being that if both sides play the same defensive game it gets very, very boring. For BOTH players. Its not a JFB vs AFB issue.

I´m sorry but I can´t really explain it any clearer what I mean then what I did in post #3013

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The bolded part, right at the beginning there, is actually where I disagree with you. I think the results you've posted here show that, if anything, you have a mild amount of air superiority, even globally, due to superior airframes. Fighter-to-fighter, anyway. He certainly doesn't have superiority over you. And since our perspectives differ starting at the premise, well...

Edit - Another point where I disagree: the underlined part - you have an incentive to play offensively. You have to take ground. He has to defend it. If you play defensively, you won't win. Push forward, establish your local air superiority. Because you can have overwhelming air superiority in one or two places if you really want it, and if you set it up. If this means you have to island hop and can't leap frog because he's doing his job defensively, fine - shouldn't that be what happens in a good game anyway? And this is where time comes in. You've got what, 8 months left to get to 2:1?

Just keep pushing forward, make Japan suffer moderate defeat after moderate defeat. A hole in the ship here, a hole there, and eventually it will sink (...the ship is his ability to resist...). If he keeps meeting you on your pushes, eventually he's going to be ground down so far that he won't have any teeth left. That's the whole point of this war!

Ah good points. I´ll get back to you after dinner!

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

Yes, I understand JocMeister. I've seen this problem even in Eastern Front games, where both sides just sit there in 1943-1944.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The bolded part, right at the beginning there, is actually where I disagree with you. I think the results you've posted here show that, if anything, you have a mild amount of air superiority, even globally, due to superior airframes. Fighter-to-fighter, anyway. He certainly doesn't have superiority over you. And since our perspectives differ starting at the premise, well...

Edit - Another point where I disagree: the underlined part - you have an incentive to play offensively. You have to take ground. He has to defend it. If you play defensively, you won't win. Push forward, establish your local air superiority. Because you can have overwhelming air superiority in one or two places if you really want it, and if you set it up. If this means you have to island hop and can't leap frog because he's doing his job defensively, fine - shouldn't that be what happens in a good game anyway? And this is where time comes in. You've got what, 8 months left to get to 2:1?

Just keep pushing forward, make Japan suffer moderate defeat after moderate defeat. A hole in the ship here, a hole there, and eventually it will sink (...the ship is his ability to resist...). If he keeps meeting you on your pushes, eventually he's going to be ground down so far that he won't have any teeth left. That's the whole point of this war!

That might be a very mild air superiority! [:)] I would rather say that none of us have air superiority globally. And both have complete 100% air superiority above our own bases. Because none of us can touch the other one. You don´t try to do anything against a 500 plane CAP. Its just suicide. For both of us.

He cannot stop me moving forward on ground. On the ground we have this absurd situation where he is bombing my troops and I just ignore it. He did so in Thailand and he is now doing it in China. I just ignore it. Because its 4 hexes from my nearest base. So if I put up LRCAP over that the best I can hope for is 1:1 ratio which is unproductive because I want/need a 5:1 to just break even in terms of Fighter availability. That being said, its not stopping me. The only thing its doing is bumping my troops from move to combat. I also get a few points of DIS and FAT. Isn´t it a little absurd my best course of action is to do nothing? I have 800 planes 4 hexes away but it makes no sense to use them? Here is where the Japanese are at a tremendous disadvantage. Reverse the situation and exchange 100 Helens for 800 4Es...no longer a couple of points of DIS and FAT.

As I said I have absolutely no doubt I will get the AV. Its just a matter of night bombing with B29s until I get the VPs I need. My point being that its pretty sad that it has to be done like that. I would have wanted to have furious air battles over Japan where fighters duke it out, airfields get closed, factories get bombed. I can´t imagine its much more fun for Erik either. Mass as many NFs and hope the B29s go there. Had the game made a little more sense he would at least be fighting over his own bases saving pilots and shooting down SOME allied planes. Now he is shooting down nothing. Because I sit there and do nothing. So now we both sit there and do nothing. [:)]

It doesn´t have anything to do with winning or losing. Of AFB or JFB. The game just stopped making sense a while back. Its pretty disappointing and sad to be honest.

[Lokasenna]

Well, aren't B-29 night raids and him hoping he puts his night fighters in the right place at least an approximation of historical reality?


As for your perceived need to obtain 5:1 kill ratios since he can produce so many fighters (I doubt he's producing THAT many, but your point that Allied numbers are [a bit] lower is taken)... Your replacements come for free. His don't. Make him pay for them. Every 36 HI he spends on a fighter is 36 HI closer to breaking his HI bank.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Battle for Okinawa[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Erik really did go all in with this one. It was a very good move. But I doubt he could have penetrated the CAP even with a full KB strike. Notice what can only be "kami ships" deliberately placed within strike range of allied CVs. Probably under a massive LRCAP from Kagoshima.

This is the first attack on the Fleet.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Naha at 94,66

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms [8D]

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 15
A6M5c Zero x 36
J2M3 Jack x 15
P1Y2 Frances x 13
Ki-84a Frank x 98

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 132
Corsair IV x 65
Hellcat I x 10
Seafire IIC x 16
Seafire L.III x 5
F4U-1A Corsair x 76
F4U-1D Corsair x 566
F6F-3 Hellcat x 173
F6F-5 Hellcat x 258

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 5 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 23 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 7 destroyed
P1Y2 Frances: 7 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 45 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair II: 1 destroyed
Hellcat I: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Thats a 1300 plane CAP. This is the last strike.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Naha at 94,66

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 29 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 58

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 90
Corsair IV x 54
Hellcat I x 6
Seafire IIC x 9
Seafire L.III x 2
F4U-1A Corsair x 57
F4U-1D Corsair x 426
F6F-3 Hellcat x 128
F6F-5 Hellcat x 182

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 25 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 2 destroyed by flak
No Allied losses

Even after 850 Japanese planes has been shot down CAP is still at 950 planes. Damage to the fleet is CVL Cabot with 22 SYS damage.

I was lucky because I moved just at the right time but also because Erik failed to recon Naha properly and didn´t know there were 250 planes on CAP. He probably thought I had a big chunk of my CAP up as LRCAP. Two or three strikes went for the shipping at Naha. No damage done.

Now I need to decide on what to do tomorrow. He might get frustrated and go for a SCTF Kami at Naha tomorrow. Unlikely though... Anyway. Minor Japanese defeat today. He will be back at full strength in a couple of days and ready to go again. So this doesn´t change anything.

Here is a screen.