Japanese defensive strategy...

[TIMJOT]

Not to rehash an already over discussed topic. BUT as to the question whether it was possible for a surface bombardment force to get within strikeing distance of an atoll base without being detected and or attacked.

Aparently yes. Halsey did it a Wotje, Taroa, and Wake. In all three cases the Bombardment TF split off from the CV TF and reached their target under the cover of darkness. The first two bombardments took place imediately after an initial dawn air attacks. At Wake the bombardment took place prior to the air attack 10 minutes after dawn.

Now before you say anything Mdiehl, I am aware that your initial contention was that a surface bombardment alone could not supress an airbase for long. To which I mostly agree. BUT correct me if I am wrong. You furhter asserted that it would be impossible for a surface force to get within striking range to make a night run to bombard an atoll in the first place.

To support your case though. It appears none of the bases were totally shut down since both the surface and CV TF were subjected to air counterattacks. However it is not clear whether these air strikes were launched prior or after the bombardments. Regardless the counter strikes were insignificant causeing only minor damage.

Regards

[Rendova]

Ok so not only to you get to find out were the enemy CV's are but you get to find out BEFORE ANY contact with him is made only because HE has seen you.... ummm ok

[mogami]

Hi, Wake became a Naval target range. No USN TF passed by without bombarding the place or if it had a CV making an airstrike. I don't think the Japanese ever hit a USN ship in return.

[Mr.Frag]

It is a function of speed balanced against the search aircraft employed. I suspect it is probably easier for Japan then the USA due mainly to the short legs of the PBY.

If you time the arrival to be in range of the search airacraft only during the dark hours and be well on your wany out before the sun comes up, you probably have a good chance of getting away with it. Planes don't just instantly pop out from the base and start searching at maximum range. It takes time to get there during the time that you are steaming away. It seems a much simpler scenario when it is an island where the direction of the attack can be from more then one axis, bluring the direction the search needs to be in...

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Rendova

Ok so not only to you get to find out were the enemy CV's are but you get to find out BEFORE ANY contact with him is made only because HE has seen you.... ummm ok

Hi, I consider the result to be most important. No CV versus CV strike was ever launched that did not produce a counter strike. Now there will still be cases where one side pounds the other because a player has set the airgroups to missions other then naval strike.
However unlike historic Midway in WITP the IJN CV would not have the morning airfield strike on board when the USN strike arrived. (all am strikes are in the air together and all land during the recover aircraft phase.) It's not perfect but we are using a machine and things have to have a set order. People tend to over analyze how the program works and what choice of phrases are used during combat reporting. WITP is an operational level game not a tactical combat game. It is important that the program preform as intended but for me I don't worry about how many BB are hit by torpedos during the PH strike only that a reasonably correct number of BB are damaged to reasonably correct levels with the Japanese strike losing close to historical numbers. WITP does this so I do
not stay awake at night trying to figure out how to sneak up undetected on enemy TF of 6 CV and get in a suprise strike. (Ok leave 6 CV in a port where I can see them and see what happens. But to do this I would need to change my airgroups from Naval Attack to Port Attack.........)

[Rendova]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Rendova

Ok so not only to you get to find out were the enemy CV's are but you get to find out BEFORE ANY contact with him is made only because HE has seen you.... ummm ok

Hi, I consider the result to be most important. No CV versus CV strike was ever launched that did not produce a counter strike. Now there will still be cases where one side pounds the other because a player has set the airgroups to missions other then naval strike.
However unlike historic Midway in WITP the IJN CV would not have the morning airfield strike on board when the USN strike arrived. (all am strikes are in the air together and all land during the recover aircraft phase.) It's not perfect but we are using a machine and things have to have a set order. People tend to over analyze how the program works and what choice of phrases are used during combat reporting. WITP is an operational level game not a tactical combat game. It is important that the program preform as intended but for me I don't worry about how many BB are hit by torpedos during the PH strike only that a reasonably correct number of BB are damaged to reasonably correct levels with the Japanese strike losing close to historical numbers. WITP does this so I do
not stay awake at night trying to figure out how to sneak up undetected on enemy TF of 6 CV and get in a suprise strike. (Ok leave 6 CV in a port where I can see them and see what happens. But to do this I would need to change my airgroups from Naval Attack to Port Attack.........)

I understand its a compromise I do really do understand how hard it must be to write code for all these situations, but my only real concern is this..In reality the strike force had to be reduced a bit because some of the attack planes were used at search aircraft, you never really could launch 36 SBD and 15 TBD at once because some of these aircraft were used as scouts, so the tatic that I will take away from this is to leave Naval search settings to 0 for all my SBD's I'll let him find me with 25% of his Vals then I'll pound him with 100% of my SBD's while I only have to fend off 75% of his Vals (plus of coruse any A6M that tag along). That was my concern, you actually get rewarded for not searching because you get a larger strike force.

Thanks again for all the explainations you give ever one here[&o]

[mdiehl]

Halsey did it a Wotje, Taroa, and Wake.

There were no aircraft on these islands when the USN TFS subjected them to bombardment, so the observation does not apply to the question at hand.

I suspect it is probably easier for Japan then the USA due mainly to the short legs of the PBY.

What "short legs?"

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Rendova
so the tatic that I will take away from this is to leave Naval seatch settings to 0 for all my SBD's I'll let him find me with 25% of his Vals then I'll pound him with 100% of my SBD's while I only have to fend off 75% of his Vals

Of course, you would miss all the non-CV task forces out there if you did that.

[Rendova]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

ORIGINAL: Rendova
so the tatic that I will take away from this is to leave Naval seatch settings to 0 for all my SBD's I'll let him find me with 25% of his Vals then I'll pound him with 100% of my SBD's while I only have to fend off 75% of his Vals

Of course, you would miss all the non-CV task forces out there if you did that.

True I would and I would have consider that... but I know/think a CV TF is out there I am not going to go look for it

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Halsey did it a Wotje, Taroa, and Wake.

There were no aircraft on these islands when the USN TFS subjected them to bombardment, so the observation does not apply to the question at hand.

Actually, there were aircraft on these islands. The USS Chester was attacked by at least 9 twin engine bombers. It recieved several near misses and one bomb hit on the well deck near the port catepult.

The Enterprise was also counter attacked by aircraft. One bomb missed by 30 feet on the port, damaging fuel lines and starting a minor fire.

The main point is however the USN had no good idea what the stength was on these atolls. They in fact expected them to be quite heavely defended. Yet it didnt deter them from planning an air-attack/surface-bombardment combo.

[mdiehl]

Yet it didnt deter them from planning an air-attack/surface-bombardment combo.

Yep. And an air-surface attack is not at all the same cat as a surface attack only. One of plan suppresses any land based air before the bombardment task force is at risk from air attack. The other does not.

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Yet it didnt deter them from planning an air-attack/surface-bombardment combo.

Yep. And an air-surface attack is not at all the same cat as a surface attack only. One of plan suppresses any land based air before the bombardment task force is at risk from air attack. The other does not.

Yep, but I believe you also dismissed the air-surface attack combo atlernative that was proposed. These attacks happend at dawn. The Wake bombardment proceeded the air attack. I believe it was darkness that surpressed any land based air before bombardment. What it does demonstrate that a surface can get within range of an atoll under the cover of darkness. Admittedly this would be more difficult at the actual Midway because the USN knew the IJN was comming, but the IJN didnt know that and conversely the USN could not know for sure that the IJN wouldnt be forwarned of the Mandate Raids either.

BTW, the USN was had also been imformed of the possibility of at least 2 IJN CVs operating in the area.

[byron13]

Mogami, is there only one search phase during the day?

If so, then that is reason enough to have the automatic counterstrike. If there is only one search phase in the early morning, Side A is set to naval attack but fails to spot the other side, he would then be subjected to TWO strikes to which he could not respond.

If there is, in fact, only one search phase, the automatic counterstrike is surely the lesser of two evils.

Rendova - you sneaky little ba$tard - that's a pretty nifty tactic you came up with!! We'll have house rules about that when we play!

[mogami]

Hi, There are 2 search phase. One in the am and one in the pm each search phase can trigger an airstrike.

[Drongo]

ORIGINAL: byron13
Rendova - you sneaky little ba$tard - that's a pretty nifty tactic you came up with!! We'll have house rules about that when we play!

Its been a while since I read the UV manual (or the mythical WITP one) but I thought having search aircraft out increased the chance of detecting an enemy TF, which in turn could increase the detection level of the enemy TF. For each a/c that spots the enemy TF, it goes up by one detection level. The higher the detection level, the more likely the strike is to find the target and if found, the more effective the strike is likely to be.

If TF A has search a/c out and the enemy TF B hasn't then:

TF A spots TF B, increasing TF Bs detection level.
TF A launches strike, increasing TF As own detection level.
TF B now sees TF A (due to TF A launching strike) and launches a "counter" strike, which further increases TF Bs own detection level.

Both strikes now seek their targets. Wouldn't TF A's strike potentially now be more likely to locate its target and potentially also do more damage due to TF B having the higher detection level?

Confused, I am. Anyone got the UV manual?

[Mr.Frag]

DL of Naval Task Force:

Add 1 to DL TF spotted by search a/c (per a/c that spots TF–only notified of first plane each phase)
Add 2 to DL TF attacked by search a/c
Add 2 to DL TF has Air Combat Mission and it reacts to an enemy TF
Add 1 to DL TF has carrier(s) launching a strike mission (per air unit that attacks/escorts from TF)

Set DL to 0 All Task Forces at the very beginning of each Day and Night resolution phase.

Them's the rules, I've chopped what doesn't apply to this discussion.

As you can see, by launching the strike, you own DL is going to go up +1 per air group launched. With a single CV thats +3/+4, with a double CV +6/+8. If it also happens to be a react (not sure if this still happens in WitP from a rule standpoint), top that off with another +2.

Hardly the same as just a little DL of 1 from being spotted by a single search aircraft.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: Rendova

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Rendova

Ok so not only to you get to find out were the enemy CV's are but you get to find out BEFORE ANY contact with him is made only because HE has seen you.... ummm ok

Hi, I consider the result to be most important. No CV versus CV strike was ever launched that did not produce a counter strike. Now there will still be cases where one side pounds the other because a player has set the airgroups to missions other then naval strike.
However unlike historic Midway in WITP the IJN CV would not have the morning airfield strike on board when the USN strike arrived. (all am strikes are in the air together and all land during the recover aircraft phase.) It's not perfect but we are using a machine and things have to have a set order. People tend to over analyze how the program works and what choice of phrases are used during combat reporting. WITP is an operational level game not a tactical combat game. It is important that the program preform as intended but for me I don't worry about how many BB are hit by torpedos during the PH strike only that a reasonably correct number of BB are damaged to reasonably correct levels with the Japanese strike losing close to historical numbers. WITP does this so I do
not stay awake at night trying to figure out how to sneak up undetected on enemy TF of 6 CV and get in a suprise strike. (Ok leave 6 CV in a port where I can see them and see what happens. But to do this I would need to change my airgroups from Naval Attack to Port Attack.........)

I understand its a compromise I do really do understand how hard it must be to write code for all these situations, but my only real concern is this..In reality the strike force had to be reduced a bit because some of the attack planes were used at search aircraft, you never really could launch 36 SBD and 15 TBD at once because some of these aircraft were used as scouts, so the tatic that I will take away from this is to leave Naval search settings to 0 for all my SBD's I'll let him find me with 25% of his Vals then I'll pound him with 100% of my SBD's while I only have to fend off 75% of his Vals (plus of coruse any A6M that tag along). That was my concern, you actually get rewarded for not searching because you get a larger strike force.

Thanks again for all the explainations you give ever one here[&o]

Funny enough, it was reduced far more then you'll ever know (thank god that bug is dead!).

Seriously though, strike planning normally had the scouts returning and rearming to take part in the raid. This also factors into the range discussion as had the targets been too far away, this recovery would not be possible, shrinking the raid size even more.

[mdiehl]

Yep, but I believe you also dismissed the air-surface attack combo atlernative that was proposed.

My apologies, then, for being unclear. Here's a plan that I think hopeless:

A bombardment TF makes a perfectly timed run-in with a substantial number of ships, avoiding detection under cover of darkness and not suffering aerial attack. The following AM a CV based strike arrives perfectly timed to suppress the airbase and cover the withdrawal of the bombardment TF. I think this plan is highly implausible for a variety of reasons, the most important of which is the dependence on perfect timing of the two combat elements, the movement and arrival of the bombardment group and the arrival of the CV based planes.

In the greater context of the discussion, this plan also puts the IJN CVs in the historical position of the IJN strike force. Simulatasking too many jobs at once, and therefore highly extra vulnerable to enemy CVs that might be operating in the area. It MIGHT work, but the plan still seems error intolerant and still overtasks Kido Butai.

As a matter of curiousity I wonder how many Japanese BBs could have realistically attempted such a run-in anyhow? The Kongo class surely, but the others?

[Ol_Dog]

Isn't that what CVs do - it takes so many minutes to launch planes, so many minutes to form up, then calculate air speed, expected wind and distance to determine estimated time of arrival at point of attack. An island does not move, and the CV should know where they are and how far and how much time to get in launch position and recovery point.

That does not sound like overtask to me.

[mdiehl]

Yes but they do not do so perfectly. So, err, a lot depends on the margin of precision in the timing required to do the job right.

It's why I think that given the job that the IJN attempted to do, using the assets that they deployed at the time, the best way to attempt to achieve their objective was to suppress Midway with CV based planes first. The problem was all the other weak points in the plan.

The "overtask" that I referred to comes about as a result of using 4 CVs to simulataneously accomplish all of these tasks at the same time. 1. Suppress Midway. 2. Operate CAP. 3. Be ready to attack the USN CVs should they make an appearance. I think in 1942 that was too many things for a CV to be able to reliably manage simultaneously in the event that one needed to do all three of them at the same time. You can do them one at a time quite well or even, possibly, two at a time (CAP and either of the other missions) Also, 1942 CAP cac results suggest that neither the USN nor the IJN were VERY adept at managing CAP in complex circumstances, nor that either of them maintained a sufficient number of aircraft on CAP to avoid having the defensive screen penetrated by even a few attack a/c. And there's the rub. One SBD or Val can ruin a CV's mission. Two of them can ruin the CV. That's also why Midway is such a potential pain in the butt.

Consider, for example, Wake Island. Two F4Fs sank two vessels and badly damaged a third. Pretty remarkable results given the use of 250 lb gp ordnance although the targets were, admittedly, soft skinned.