The Italian Job (2) - Comments from the Allies

[String]

Isn't that the original Wasp (cv7) that's in SF? not the Essex class Wasp?

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: String

Isn't that the original Wasp (cv7) that's in SF? not the Essex class Wasp?

Actually it is, because the air capacity is not (90).
I can't match this with the info on the internet site dedicated to the CV Wasp.
Apparently in July '42 it was already an Essex class. [&:]

[AmiralLaurent]

Here is the history of the original CV Wasp:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/shi ... V/cv7.html

And go there for pictures:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-u ... -w/cv7.htm

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: mc3744

ORIGINAL: String

Isn't that the original Wasp (cv7) that's in SF? not the Essex class Wasp?

Actually it is, because the air capacity is not (90).
I can't match this with the info on the internet site dedicated to the CV Wasp.
Apparently in July '42 it was already an Essex class. [&:]

CV 7 wasn't lost until Sep 42.
CV 18 was renamed in Nov 42
you just got some bad information.

renamed Wasp on 13 November 1942; launched on 17 August 1943;
source:

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/shi ... -wasp.html

[mc3744]

Hi guys,

thanks for the info on the Wasp. I guess I got myself the wrong site [:(]

Latest from the front.

July 15th, 1942

No big news anywhere.

China has almost collapsed but for the few strongholds.

Australia's withdrawing is proving really difficult. I never really hated the ground combat systemt so much. Now I do, ground combat is nowhere near a simulation. It's a big trick. Know the rules, exploit them. That's it. [:o]

He must be relocating his bombers, maybe to Australia, maybe for a surprise in Burma. Bombings over China have significantly decreased.

Overall another bad month for the Allies.

[mc3744]

July 16th, 1942

INDIA-BURMA-CHINA
The air war is going all right. I’m now able to fly ground support missions over China and I keep suppressing his forward airfields.
Lots of fighter squadrons are 75+ exp and I’ll soon move the entire AVG to Sining. (72) experienced fighters may be able to withstand his crushing response.
Another (72) P-40B squadron will be in Karachi in a couple of weeks. In a month (72) more from Australia. Someday (24) F4F-4 too.
This should give me some space to defend my airfields in China.

With hindsight, my worst mistake in China has been Chengtu not garrisoned. I’m paying dearly for this mistake. For the rest I’ve done whatever was possible to do, but Chengtu was my mistake. [:-]

AUSTRALIA
Time to admit it. Operation Freedom failed miserably, I’ve been defeated by superior forces and an excellent opponent. I lost lots of men for nothing. I hope won’t loose too many more while retreating. [:(]
Single front attacks don’t work, at least not in ’42. The Japs are way too strong. I must revert to pincer attacks only (or fight less experienced opponents [;)]).
Australian HQ units will remain as a threat, out of Sally’s range, while the other units will go to Alice and from there will be reassigned to the East or West.
The heavies will keep scoring over Daly.
Right now I’m not going for Exmouth. I need to wait to be able to return in Central Australia too. Next time it will be a coordinated attack. Hopefully on (3) fronts: Centre, East and West.
Exmouth right now is an excellent training airfield for the 60+ Dutch Brewster’s I have in Geraldton.
Any offensive in Australia is now on hold for at least 3-6 months.

PACIFIC
I’ve got a few ideas, but it’s too soon.

[mc3744]

July 21st, 1942

INDIA-CHINA-BURMA
Once Kunming and Tsuyung will be lost I won’t be able to use Hurricane’s and Spitfire’s in China anymore, due to the short range.
I brought (42) P-40E’s to Sining. Air-to-air losses 6:10 in my favour. Nothing exciting.

AUSTRALIA
I may have encountered another bug.
Units in the picture are retreating towards Daly, destination SW.
The tank battalion was the fastest, last turn it should have moved into the hex South of Daly. Instead it’s movement was back to (0) out of (600), it did not reset to defend. It reset to (0) while still moving. This turn it was back to defend.
I have not been attacked, only bombarded. The INF units are still moving. It may mean I have some 100.000 men stuck out there, with no hope to retreat.
I’m seriously thinking about giving up. [:(] Too many mistakes on my side, and the two offensives plagued by bugs. Of course it’s not like I would be winning without them but I lost too many units to this idiotic movement system and now to bugs. And GH knows too well how to exploit it.
I won’t see any light before another (6) months of game and I’m not sure I’m willing to go that far with almost no fun.

[tabpub]

You might have to just try to move the one hex to the road. I think the problem lays in supply. I had an unit in the same situation in that area, but using the stock map. It was 3 hexes from the rail line, after it had pursued and defeated some Jap remnants. I had ordered it to Darwin, the move took and it proceded to move 55 miles and then reset to zero. It has something to do with the supply calculation; it seems to only do it when it is about to leave. After 2 tries, I just ordered it to move one hex and it finally moved there.

In your situation, it sounds like there are 11 road hexes and one clear hex to Alice Springs, which,if I remember my supply rules right, would be just out of 'good' supply distance. Reset all to only move the one hex and this might work out for you. Other than that, make sure to send out units to pin him so that he can't slide onto the road on you.

Good luck.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: tabpub

You might have to just try to move the one hex to the road. I think the problem lays in supply. I had an unit in the same situation in that area, but using the stock map. It was 3 hexes from the rail line, after it had pursued and defeated some Jap remnants. I had ordered it to Darwin, the move took and it proceded to move 55 miles and then reset to zero. It has something to do with the supply calculation; it seems to only do it when it is about to leave. After 2 tries, I just ordered it to move one hex and it finally moved there.

In your situation, it sounds like there are 11 road hexes and one clear hex to Alice Springs, which,if I remember my supply rules right, would be just out of 'good' supply distance. Reset all to only move the one hex and this might work out for you. Other than that, make sure to send out units to pin him so that he can't slide onto the road on you.

Good luck.

Yes, that seems to be the solution if the tank unit has Alice Springs as target: The hex mc is trying to move from is 10 road hexes (= 10x5 = 50 supply movement) + 1 cross country hex (= 50 supply movement) from Alice Springs (= next friendly base). That's exactly 100 and thus "0" (100-100) as supply value for the hex he's trying to move from (not 900-100 because the hex he tries to move from is not "friendly" in game terms because there's an enemy unit in that hex). If selecting the road hex south of Daly Waters as destination the supply value for that hex would be 50 (10 road hexes = 100 - 50 = positive supply value = valid move). At least that is how I interpret 14.3 of the manual (but I may be wrong because the rules are not completely clear in that aspect).

K

[mc3744]

I cannot select a road hex as destination.
When you are in a hex with enemy units you can move out only by selecting a friendly base as destination.
It appears that I'm stuck.

I've decided this will be my milestone. If I get stuck I surrender. It just doesn't make any sense and the fun would be gone for too long.
If I get out I continue.
Also if I loose another 100.000 men and (6) more divisions the game is indeed lost.

I had no idea Central Australia was more rainy than London (I thought it was desert-like), the road hex south of Daly takes three time more than all the others to move out, the retreating units (although still with their own supplies) get stuck just by seeing the enemy.
In China and Timor I made two big strategic mistakes, here I made none. There's no reason whatsoever why I shouldn't be able to retreat. The game sucks at simulating this kind of battles and I'm on the wrong side of the bad system.

[Kereguelen]

Drat, seems that you're indeed stuck. Unlucky combination of supply and movement rules of the game, never noticed that problem. Even worse because (if I understand the rules correctly) your units trying to retreat don't have a valid supply path and thus will even be unable to retreat if attacked...

Hope that I'm wrong!

[mc3744]

It's probably time to give up.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: mc3744

It's probably time to give up.

With the movement rules in this game it is as important to plan your retreats as it is to plan your advances:

- Always make certain that any routes for potential retreats have been travelled in advance by your troops so that your side's "letter" is in the hexes.

- Send out troops to your flanks to protect your retreat paths.

- Retreat before combat so that your troops aren't fatigued and can move at the same speed as the enemy.

- Make certain that your bases behind the lines have plenty of supply and air-drop supplies to your troops.

The movement rules aren't good in this game, but they do affect both sides and you can work within them.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

[mc3744]

Hi ADavidB,

The hexes behind are 'mine'.
The flanks are protected.
I have the Australian HQ on the road hex South of Daly exactly for the purpose of keeping the troops supplied and supported.
In Alice there are over 100k supplies.
What else can I do?

Yes it affects both sides, but not at the same time.
The movement system greatly penalize the retreating side, which is usually represented by the Allies in the first year.
It doesn't make sense that you can only attack and win. Retreat should be a viable option, as it is in real life.
Fall out tactics were definitely known during WWII, such as rearguards, picket troops, delaying actions by platoons and scout units, ...
This should definitely be true when fighting in your own country (Australia), with the back lines open and garrisoned.

GH has played real well so far and he did not make the mistakes I did. I'm not going to blame the game for the actual situation. My bad, his good.
But for here in Australia. I don't feel I've made anything wrong still I'm going to loose a huge army to the game mechanics.

Burma offensive has been spoiled by the bug, 30% of the INF units lost is quite some loss. I have no way to know what it would have happened but it still bothers me. Still I keep the fight.
Australia fills the measure. Not because I did not succeed, that can be expected, but because I cannot do something that should be absolutely doable.
I lost in Burma, fine. I lost in Australia, fine. I loose 100k men to game mechanics, not fine.

[Speedysteve]

Hi MC,

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned etc but I know that IF you are in a contested hex and movement wise you select an open hex RATHER than a base hex then any attack (bombardment even) will stop all movement.

I hope this can be sorted since you've both played an interesting game.

Regards,

Steven

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi MC,

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned etc but I know that IF you are in a contested hex and movement wise you select an open hex RATHER than a base hex then any attack (bombardment even) will stop all movement.

I hope this can be sorted since you've both played an interesting game.

Regards,

Steven

Thanks Speedy,

I know that. Problem is that the movement is not working even if I set Alice as destination.
Unlike the problem you mention, which resets the unit orders to defend in the next turn, in this case the units orders are not reset, but once you reach (60) movement 'points' you go back to (0), still moving, not defending.
There's a suggestion that this may depend on my distance from Alice, I have no idea, still it doesn't make sense.

I don't want to quit, but I have no margin left to allow for a gamey loss (I'm not saying GH is gamey, it's the game that is gamey [;)]).
If I was in a better strategic position I could swallow this, as I did in Burma. But in this case it becomes too much. He could even conquer Australia after he defeats those units. Better give up now and end the suffering.

I'm willing to play uphill to recover mistakes I made. Not to keep fighting GH AND the game.

[mc3744]

The game will go on following a proposal of GH (I don't yet know exactly how, I'm waiting for a summary)

I learnt that several experts argued (on GH's AAR) that my night bombing tactic has altered the game somehow (in a gamey way). I'm no expert and I believe it, hence I'll quit the nght bombing for the remainder of the game.

I feel however that this match has been plagued by too many game engine problems (night bombing among them) and that - in the end - GH has won this match. He made no mistakes, played creatively and outsmarted me more than once.

Therefore I'm closing down my side of the AAR.

[Speedysteve]

Shame to see that MC. Has been an interesting ride!

Any word from Mods/Devs on this?

Maybe they could fix it and allow you to struggle on?

Steven

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Shame to see that MC. Has been an interesting ride!

Any word from Mods/Devs on this?

Maybe they could fix it and allow you to struggle on?

Steven

Hey Steven [:)]

Thanks [:D], I will struggle on. I just don't feel (at least right now) like keeping the AAR.
You can follow GH's one. Maybe I'll return in a while.

Thanks again [;)]

Cheers

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Shame to see that MC. Has been an interesting ride!

Any word from Mods/Devs on this?

Maybe they could fix it and allow you to struggle on?

Steven

Ditto. It's been fun reading this aar.