I have never been able to find the level of requirement for Tac/Heavy Bombers and air bases in the exe file, but, creating French Frigate Shoals could be done by repeating what I did to Marcus I.
However, I do not see this base as important as Marcus Island. Midway is not too far away, and neither are the Hawaiian Islands. I was thinking of adding this base many times, but other bases are of higher priority.
Querry Option for Version 2.4
Originally posted by Major Tom:
I have never been able to find the level of requirement for Tac/Heavy Bombers and air bases in the exe file, but, creating French Frigate Shoals could be done by repeating what I did to Marcus I.
However, I do not see this base as important as Marcus Island. Midway is not too far away, and neither are the Hawaiian Islands. I was thinking of adding this base many times, but other bases are of higher priority.
A base like FFS could be interesting in more then one way, FLoat planes but also subs could use it to refuel thus shortening their patrol distance and making them more effective. We would need somekind of house rule to prevent large LCU using them. (good places for USMC Raider Bn's to target-giving them a real purpose) Little bases scattered about in places where using them properly would be interesting. (Can it be done? Should it be done in a game of this scale?) One of my personal house rules involves invading places that lay outside my LBA/Scout range, I don't do it even when I know the base is not garrisioned (I don't use my knowledge of the deployments to make stratagy-I go under the assumption that everyplace is garrisioned) A few places like FFS would become part of my planning.
Were there Japanese commando type units, are were they just drawn from Naval Land forces (I am thinking now of using those little BN sized units to capture and garrison any little base that could be used to fuel/base float planes or subs
(If the base could be set up so routine supply would not go there and all fuel had to be brought in it would be best)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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Cmdrcain
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French Frigate Shoals is a Coral Reef/Shallows never garrisoned since would need a SCUBA outfit ;--)Originally posted by Mogami:
A base like FFS could be interesting in more then one way, FLoat planes but also subs could use it to refuel thus shortening their patrol distance and making them more effective. We would need somekind of house rule to prevent large LCU using them. (good places for USMC Raider Bn's to target-giving them a real purpose) Little bases scattered about in places where using them properly would be interesting. (Can it be done? Should it be done in a game of this scale?) One of my personal house rules involves invading places that lay outside my LBA/Scout range, I don't do it even when I know the base is not garrisioned (I don't use my knowledge of the deployments to make stratagy-I go under the assumption that everyplace is garrisioned) A few places like FFS would become part of my planning.
Were there Japanese commando type units, are were they just drawn from Naval Land forces (I am thinking now of using those little BN sized units to capture and garrison any little base that could be used to fuel/base float planes or subs
(If the base could be set up so routine supply would not go there and all fuel had to be brought in it would be best)
In Battle of Midway, a seaplane tender was stationed preventing a float-sub from using it to launch a floatplane, if it were put in it would have like previous post said Marcus stats of af 1 port 0 so nothing could? Land there.
No land path
but could station Pbys
Too bad Tom cant find the bomber requirments...
Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!
Battlestar Pegasus
Battlestar Pegasus
It would have to be able for LCU overwise it would never change hands and no supply could be used (so no float planes) There would have to be a house rule forbidding it to be garrisioned. (it would just swap back and forth to who ever sent the biggest TF)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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Cmdrcain
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I think a Cargo plane squad at Pearl could supply the Pbys at a Port 0 AF 1 setup for it.Originally posted by Mogami:
It would have to be able for LCU overwise it would never change hands and no supply could be used (so no float planes) There would have to be a house rule forbidding it to be garrisioned. (it would just swap back and forth to who ever sent the biggest TF)
Again you don't understand , FFS are SHOALS, not an island at all, it was a good place to station float planes/patrol planes..
It is in Carriers at war as an anchor point.
Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!
Battlestar Pegasus
Battlestar Pegasus
I understand that perfectly, but the game might not be so understanding. without a port supply can not unload and so no float plane could fly. Making Marcus a zero also means nothing can happen there it will remain Japanese the whole war because you can't land troops on it and supply can not be there so nothing can operate from it. Might as well remove it. Marcus might be within range of transport planes (I guess they can fly over and throw stuff out)
So you have a choice between two evils, no FFS at all (since it wouild be useless (you can not refuel floatplane with supply still on ship) or you have it understood that only to change possession for supply can LCU go there and then it must re-embark (no garrison)
To resupply a ship would be possible (you would have to transfer each ship into TF with fuel do a replenishment and then transfer back to TF do able but you could not refuel a sub (even with the sub tender sitting right there full of fuel.
It is because the fuel has to be physically on the map to be used that LCU have to be able to land there (just to change the flag) Of course one side effect would be the otherside would always know when someone was. using FFS (the flag would change)
But just so you know that I know you can't land on FFS you should send a wire to the Navy Department so they'll know because Following the Battle of Midway, the U.S. Navy erected a complete Naval Air Station on French Frigate Shoals, to precluded any further Japanese rendezvous. (monster 20 man garrison)
The shoal was now an important emergency stopover and navigational point for aircraft flying between Hawaii and Midway. Tern Island had been enlarged from the size of a tennis court to an airfield bearing the resemblance of an aircraft carrier flight deck, 3300 feet long and 400 feet wide. Eventually, the Coast Guard would take over the site and operate a low frequency radiobeacon and a double-pulsed Loran A station until the phase-out of Loran A. The station also served as a monitor station for the Central Pacific Loran C chain which had transmitter sites at Kure, Johnston, and Hawaii Islands. When Loran A was shut down, LORMONSTA Honolulu assumed the Loran C monitoring functions and the Coast Guard left French Frigate (Americans can do anything)
[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]
[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>
So you have a choice between two evils, no FFS at all (since it wouild be useless (you can not refuel floatplane with supply still on ship) or you have it understood that only to change possession for supply can LCU go there and then it must re-embark (no garrison)
To resupply a ship would be possible (you would have to transfer each ship into TF with fuel do a replenishment and then transfer back to TF do able but you could not refuel a sub (even with the sub tender sitting right there full of fuel.
It is because the fuel has to be physically on the map to be used that LCU have to be able to land there (just to change the flag) Of course one side effect would be the otherside would always know when someone was. using FFS (the flag would change)
But just so you know that I know you can't land on FFS you should send a wire to the Navy Department so they'll know because Following the Battle of Midway, the U.S. Navy erected a complete Naval Air Station on French Frigate Shoals, to precluded any further Japanese rendezvous. (monster 20 man garrison)
The shoal was now an important emergency stopover and navigational point for aircraft flying between Hawaii and Midway. Tern Island had been enlarged from the size of a tennis court to an airfield bearing the resemblance of an aircraft carrier flight deck, 3300 feet long and 400 feet wide. Eventually, the Coast Guard would take over the site and operate a low frequency radiobeacon and a double-pulsed Loran A station until the phase-out of Loran A. The station also served as a monitor station for the Central Pacific Loran C chain which had transmitter sites at Kure, Johnston, and Hawaii Islands. When Loran A was shut down, LORMONSTA Honolulu assumed the Loran C monitoring functions and the Coast Guard left French Frigate (Americans can do anything)
[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]
[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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Cmdrcain
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- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:00 am
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Originally posted by Mogami:
ch (Americans can do anything)
OK OK... I must have missed what they did but at time of Midway it wasn't anything but a Shoal, to make it any type of base requiered adding and shipping in rock and dirt and whatever <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Noise? What Noise? It's sooooo quiet and Peaceful!
Battlestar Pegasus
Battlestar Pegasus
Hi, I don't understand why you keep thinking this place is under water. There are 11 Islands inside the atoll (it is a 29 mile cresent atoll)
Discovery and Shipwrecks
Although there are no records in historic Hawaiian lore, the earliest visitors to French Frigate Shoals probably came from the nearby Hawaiian Islands to the east which are known to have been settled by Polynesians between 1100 and 1300 AD. The Spanish and Portuguese began exploring the Pacific following Magellan's successful crossing in the 1520's. Early sailing vessels followed the Equatorial Current westward and the North Pacific Current eastward and the Hawaiian Islands were seldom, if ever, visited. Many writers believe that it was not until January 1778 that Captain James Cook, an Englishman, discovered the Sandwich (Hawaiian) Islands. Other Europeans soon visited the area.The discovery of French Frigate Shoals on 6 November 1786 was almost marred by disaster. The French explorer Jean Francois de Galaup, Comte de la Perouse, aboard his frigate, the Broussole, accompanied by the Astrolabe, was sailing westward on a tranquil sea from Monterey to Macao. At 0130 hours men on both ships sighted breakers directly ahead at a distance of only 2/10 mile. Both vessels were immediately brought about and headed south-southeast, passing as close as 1/10 mile to the breakers.
At daybreak, both ships reversed course, and at 0800 breakers were sighted north-northwest. Soon "a small island, or cleft rock, fifty toises [100 yards] at most in diameter, and about twenty or twenty-five [40 or 50 yards] in height' was sighted. Many years later this rock was named La Perouse Pinnacle after its discoverer.
La Perouse examined only the southeastern half of the atoll, as shown in his original 1786 map. He thought the rock was at the extreme northwest end of the reef and found only three sand-banks no more than four feet high. Before leaving he named his new discovery Basse des Fregates Frangaises, or Shoal of the French Frigates.
Several variations of la Perouse's original name have been used over the years: French Frigate Shoal, French Frigates Shoal, and French Frigate Shoals. The most recent ruling was in July 1954 when the U.S. Board of Geographic Names adopted French Frigate Shoals.
United States Possession
During the late 1700's and early 1800's European and American traders called at the larger Hawaiian islands and 1825 Honolulu had become the most important port in the entire Pacific. The United States became more and more interested in the Pacific and in August 1838 the United States Exploring Expedition put to sea under command of Lt. Charles Wilkes. This expedition spent some six months in the Hawaiian area; on 3 December 1841 they sighted French Frigate Shoals but were unable to land due to bad weather.
In early October 1858 the U.S. Schooner Fenimore Cooper, commanded by Lt. John M. Brooke, U.S. Navy, left San Francisco to sound out a route via Hawaii to Japan for a possible underwater telegraph cable. The Fenimore Cooper visited French Frigate Shoals from 3 to 7 January 1859; Brooke took depth soundings and charted the various islets for the first time. More importantly, however, Lt. Brooke took formal possession of French Frigate Shoals for the United States on 14 January in accordance with the U.S. Guano Act of August 1856 .
Guano and Shipwrecks
Brooke also reported the discovery of guano at French Frigate Shoals, a fact which produced much excitement in Honolulu among guano investors. The bark Gambia sailed to the Shoals on 5 March 1859 and on the 23rd the American clipper ship Modern Times also set sail. Both ships returned with disappointing news concerning the size of the deposits and the cost of their removal.
The first wreck recorded on the Shoals was of the American whaling ship South Seaman, which wrecked on 13 March 1859. Fortunately the Hawaiian schooner Kamehameha IV was in the area and brought back to Honolulu 12 of the South Seaman's crew. The remaining 30 or so crewmen were left on one of the islands until the Kamehameha IV (chartered by the American consul) returned to pick them up.
The Gambia, under the command of Captain N.C. Brooks, again visited French Frigate Shoals in late April or early May 1859. While at the Shoals, Brooks noted an abundance of seals, turtle, fish, and birds.
On 14 April 1867 French Frigate Shoals was the site of the shipwreck of the bark Daniel Wood. All of the crew managed to reach one of the islands. On the 16th Captain Richmond, the second mate, and 6 men embarked for Honolulu in one of the ship's whaleboats, leaving 27 shipmates behind. They landed at Honolulu on the 24th. The U.S.S. Lackawanna was dispatched by the American Consul to rescue the rest of the crew. On 20 May the schooner Malolo sailed for the Shoals in search of the wreck of the Daniel Wood. The Malolo returned to Honolulu on 22 June without finding a trace of the wrecked ship. When U.S. Naval Hydrographic Office Maps 2, 3 and 4 showing the entire Northwestern Hawaiian Islands in detail were published in 1867, other countries became interested. The Japanese soon began to fish in the area. The Japanese-owned American-chartered schooner Ada, working out of Yokohama, visited French Frigate Shoals from 3 February to 1 May 1882 (Hornell, 1934). It left the Shoals with a cargo of sharks' flesh, fins and oil, turtle shells and oil, and birds' down.
The North Pacific Phosphate and Fertilizer Company was interested in mining guano on the central Pacific islands. A letter from J.P Hackfeld, secretary of the company, dated 6 January 1894, to James A. King, Minister of the Interior of the new Republic of Hawaii, requested that King order the lease by public auction of French Frigate Shoals, Kure, Midway, and Pearl and Hermes Reef for a term of 25 years and that the purchaser should have the exclusive right to mine guano, phosphate, fertilizers, and other materials. The islands were leased on 15 February 1894 for a period of 25 years to the North Pacific Phosphate and Fertilizer Company. This company was also granted exclusive rights to the guano deposits provided they would be worked within five years; otherwise, the rights would revert to the Hawaiian government. Since the Pacific Guano and Fertilizer Company never worked French Frigate Shoals, their guano rights presumably reverted in 1899; their lease, however, was probably valid. In order to obtain clear titles to the northwestern islands for the Republic of Hawaii, President Sanford B. Dole on 9 July 1895 appointed James A. King, Minister of the Interior, Republic of Hawaii, as Special Commissioner to take possession of French Frigate Shoals. On that same date, King sailed from Honolulu on the Revenue Cutter Lehua, commanded by Captain Berry, in pursuance of President Dole's commission. King, in a subsequent letter to Dole on 22 July, noted that the Lehua sighted the rock islet of French Frigate Shoals on 13 July, that he landed and took possession; on a nearby sand island they planted the Hawaiian Flag.
The U.S. Navy, as well as other U.S. Government agencies, became interested in the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands in the late 1890's and early 1900's. Hawaii became a United States Territory on 30 April 1900. On 28 and 29 May 1902 the U.S. Fish Commission Steamer Albatross stopped at the Shoals; among their activities was wildlife survey.
Preservation of wildlife was of prime importance in the early 1900's and President Theodore Roosevelt signed an Executive Order on 3 February 1909 setting aside all the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, except Midway, as a preserve and breeding ground for native birds. This preserve, to be known as the Hawaiian Island Reservation, was to be administered by the Department of Agriculture.
Subsequently, U.S. Revenue Cutter Service vessels were used to patrol the area for bird poachers. The USRC Thetis made several trips to the islands. Her stops at French Frigate Shoals include 19 December 1912, 9 September 1914, 20-21 March 1915, and 28 January 1916). The USS Hermes visited on 4-5 September 1918 on a similar inspection survey.
From 25 August to 30 September and from 10 October to 4 November 1914 the USS Rainbow conducted a hydrographic survey outside of the reef. The subsequent map, first printed in June 1915, is considered to be the first modern map of French Frigate Shoals.
As part of a biological survey of central Pacific islands, the Tanager Expedition, with 11 scientists, visited the atoll from 22 to 28 June 1923. Alexander Wetmore was the field director for this survey; his unpublished field notes reveal details on the avifauna present as well as a description of each island. Many scientific collections were made. This survey was the first overall scientific survey of French Frigate Shoals
Had anyone cared to prior to WW2 they could have built a base here. The airfield was still around in the late 60's (looks like a giant CV flightdeck without the CV it was built on Tern Island not because Tern Island was the largest but because it was the best location wise) FFS is larger then Palmyra (long since abandoned, it has no residents and is only visted today by Yachters yet is a size 4 airbase and port in Pac War-the Lagoon at Palmyra looks almost like the one in Gilligans Island)
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>
Discovery and Shipwrecks
Although there are no records in historic Hawaiian lore, the earliest visitors to French Frigate Shoals probably came from the nearby Hawaiian Islands to the east which are known to have been settled by Polynesians between 1100 and 1300 AD. The Spanish and Portuguese began exploring the Pacific following Magellan's successful crossing in the 1520's. Early sailing vessels followed the Equatorial Current westward and the North Pacific Current eastward and the Hawaiian Islands were seldom, if ever, visited. Many writers believe that it was not until January 1778 that Captain James Cook, an Englishman, discovered the Sandwich (Hawaiian) Islands. Other Europeans soon visited the area.The discovery of French Frigate Shoals on 6 November 1786 was almost marred by disaster. The French explorer Jean Francois de Galaup, Comte de la Perouse, aboard his frigate, the Broussole, accompanied by the Astrolabe, was sailing westward on a tranquil sea from Monterey to Macao. At 0130 hours men on both ships sighted breakers directly ahead at a distance of only 2/10 mile. Both vessels were immediately brought about and headed south-southeast, passing as close as 1/10 mile to the breakers.
At daybreak, both ships reversed course, and at 0800 breakers were sighted north-northwest. Soon "a small island, or cleft rock, fifty toises [100 yards] at most in diameter, and about twenty or twenty-five [40 or 50 yards] in height' was sighted. Many years later this rock was named La Perouse Pinnacle after its discoverer.
La Perouse examined only the southeastern half of the atoll, as shown in his original 1786 map. He thought the rock was at the extreme northwest end of the reef and found only three sand-banks no more than four feet high. Before leaving he named his new discovery Basse des Fregates Frangaises, or Shoal of the French Frigates.
Several variations of la Perouse's original name have been used over the years: French Frigate Shoal, French Frigates Shoal, and French Frigate Shoals. The most recent ruling was in July 1954 when the U.S. Board of Geographic Names adopted French Frigate Shoals.
United States Possession
During the late 1700's and early 1800's European and American traders called at the larger Hawaiian islands and 1825 Honolulu had become the most important port in the entire Pacific. The United States became more and more interested in the Pacific and in August 1838 the United States Exploring Expedition put to sea under command of Lt. Charles Wilkes. This expedition spent some six months in the Hawaiian area; on 3 December 1841 they sighted French Frigate Shoals but were unable to land due to bad weather.
In early October 1858 the U.S. Schooner Fenimore Cooper, commanded by Lt. John M. Brooke, U.S. Navy, left San Francisco to sound out a route via Hawaii to Japan for a possible underwater telegraph cable. The Fenimore Cooper visited French Frigate Shoals from 3 to 7 January 1859; Brooke took depth soundings and charted the various islets for the first time. More importantly, however, Lt. Brooke took formal possession of French Frigate Shoals for the United States on 14 January in accordance with the U.S. Guano Act of August 1856 .
Guano and Shipwrecks
Brooke also reported the discovery of guano at French Frigate Shoals, a fact which produced much excitement in Honolulu among guano investors. The bark Gambia sailed to the Shoals on 5 March 1859 and on the 23rd the American clipper ship Modern Times also set sail. Both ships returned with disappointing news concerning the size of the deposits and the cost of their removal.
The first wreck recorded on the Shoals was of the American whaling ship South Seaman, which wrecked on 13 March 1859. Fortunately the Hawaiian schooner Kamehameha IV was in the area and brought back to Honolulu 12 of the South Seaman's crew. The remaining 30 or so crewmen were left on one of the islands until the Kamehameha IV (chartered by the American consul) returned to pick them up.
The Gambia, under the command of Captain N.C. Brooks, again visited French Frigate Shoals in late April or early May 1859. While at the Shoals, Brooks noted an abundance of seals, turtle, fish, and birds.
On 14 April 1867 French Frigate Shoals was the site of the shipwreck of the bark Daniel Wood. All of the crew managed to reach one of the islands. On the 16th Captain Richmond, the second mate, and 6 men embarked for Honolulu in one of the ship's whaleboats, leaving 27 shipmates behind. They landed at Honolulu on the 24th. The U.S.S. Lackawanna was dispatched by the American Consul to rescue the rest of the crew. On 20 May the schooner Malolo sailed for the Shoals in search of the wreck of the Daniel Wood. The Malolo returned to Honolulu on 22 June without finding a trace of the wrecked ship. When U.S. Naval Hydrographic Office Maps 2, 3 and 4 showing the entire Northwestern Hawaiian Islands in detail were published in 1867, other countries became interested. The Japanese soon began to fish in the area. The Japanese-owned American-chartered schooner Ada, working out of Yokohama, visited French Frigate Shoals from 3 February to 1 May 1882 (Hornell, 1934). It left the Shoals with a cargo of sharks' flesh, fins and oil, turtle shells and oil, and birds' down.
The North Pacific Phosphate and Fertilizer Company was interested in mining guano on the central Pacific islands. A letter from J.P Hackfeld, secretary of the company, dated 6 January 1894, to James A. King, Minister of the Interior of the new Republic of Hawaii, requested that King order the lease by public auction of French Frigate Shoals, Kure, Midway, and Pearl and Hermes Reef for a term of 25 years and that the purchaser should have the exclusive right to mine guano, phosphate, fertilizers, and other materials. The islands were leased on 15 February 1894 for a period of 25 years to the North Pacific Phosphate and Fertilizer Company. This company was also granted exclusive rights to the guano deposits provided they would be worked within five years; otherwise, the rights would revert to the Hawaiian government. Since the Pacific Guano and Fertilizer Company never worked French Frigate Shoals, their guano rights presumably reverted in 1899; their lease, however, was probably valid. In order to obtain clear titles to the northwestern islands for the Republic of Hawaii, President Sanford B. Dole on 9 July 1895 appointed James A. King, Minister of the Interior, Republic of Hawaii, as Special Commissioner to take possession of French Frigate Shoals. On that same date, King sailed from Honolulu on the Revenue Cutter Lehua, commanded by Captain Berry, in pursuance of President Dole's commission. King, in a subsequent letter to Dole on 22 July, noted that the Lehua sighted the rock islet of French Frigate Shoals on 13 July, that he landed and took possession; on a nearby sand island they planted the Hawaiian Flag.
The U.S. Navy, as well as other U.S. Government agencies, became interested in the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands in the late 1890's and early 1900's. Hawaii became a United States Territory on 30 April 1900. On 28 and 29 May 1902 the U.S. Fish Commission Steamer Albatross stopped at the Shoals; among their activities was wildlife survey.
Preservation of wildlife was of prime importance in the early 1900's and President Theodore Roosevelt signed an Executive Order on 3 February 1909 setting aside all the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, except Midway, as a preserve and breeding ground for native birds. This preserve, to be known as the Hawaiian Island Reservation, was to be administered by the Department of Agriculture.
Subsequently, U.S. Revenue Cutter Service vessels were used to patrol the area for bird poachers. The USRC Thetis made several trips to the islands. Her stops at French Frigate Shoals include 19 December 1912, 9 September 1914, 20-21 March 1915, and 28 January 1916). The USS Hermes visited on 4-5 September 1918 on a similar inspection survey.
From 25 August to 30 September and from 10 October to 4 November 1914 the USS Rainbow conducted a hydrographic survey outside of the reef. The subsequent map, first printed in June 1915, is considered to be the first modern map of French Frigate Shoals.
As part of a biological survey of central Pacific islands, the Tanager Expedition, with 11 scientists, visited the atoll from 22 to 28 June 1923. Alexander Wetmore was the field director for this survey; his unpublished field notes reveal details on the avifauna present as well as a description of each island. Many scientific collections were made. This survey was the first overall scientific survey of French Frigate Shoals
Had anyone cared to prior to WW2 they could have built a base here. The airfield was still around in the late 60's (looks like a giant CV flightdeck without the CV it was built on Tern Island not because Tern Island was the largest but because it was the best location wise) FFS is larger then Palmyra (long since abandoned, it has no residents and is only visted today by Yachters yet is a size 4 airbase and port in Pac War-the Lagoon at Palmyra looks almost like the one in Gilligans Island)
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Very well stated Mogami! The first impression I always get when I hear of French Frigate Shoals is the inability of the Japanese to launch a submarine based recon of Pearl during operation MI......If I recall correctly, there was an unexpected American seaplane tender in the lagoon....the IJN certainly could have used the intel that the Carriers were "out of the barn"
Hi, how about the 40+ U-boats that operated in the Indian and Pacific Oceans and were supported by Japanese bases and tenders? Can midget subs find their way into the game? (I think they actually sank an Austrailian Cruiser off Townsville) Are the I-400 series in the game? (the monsters that carried 20 torps and 3 aircraft) there were 18 of them (and 10 2 aircraft models) the plan was to have them surface next to allied landing and launch their Aircraft and then attack with their torpedos. They were 4k tons (largest sub in any navy intill 1950's nukeboats) crews of 140 400ft long (they were never used as intended but did run supplies to a few cut off bases.)
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Mogami, I don't think it was 40 U-Boats, more on the order of ten or so? Unless you mean that there were 40 different U-boats there, but not at the same time, which sounds about right. An no Australian cruiser sunk by them, certainly not off Townsville, which is on the other side of Australia and was not a U-boat hunting ground.
But I'd love the midgets in there, also the British X-craft. Those last Japanese ships are always a pain to sink, they would come in handy.
But I'd love the midgets in there, also the British X-craft. Those last Japanese ships are always a pain to sink, they would come in handy.
Hi, yes i meant 40 different boats, it was the midgets that sank the Aussie not the U-boats
4 U-boats were given to Japan before Germany surrendered and became IJN subs (U-181,195,219 and 862)
U-181 became IJN I-501 May 45 type IXD2
U-195 became I-506 May 45 type IXD1
U-219 became I-505 8 May 45 Bativia type XB
U-862 became I-502 6 May 45 Singapore type IXD2
The idea of stationing German U-boats in Penang or Sabang for operations in the Indian Ocean was first proposed by the Japanese in December 1942. As no supplies were available at either location the idea was turned down (although a number of U-cruisers from the first wave operated around the Cape at the time).
The idea was raised again in the spring 1943. Additionally, the Japanese requested 2 U-boats to be handed over for copying. Although Doenitz saw no point in such a handover, it was decided to give a type IXC boat.
As long as targets were available in the Atlantic, Doenitz considered sending U-boats on a large scale to the Far East as unprofitable. However, on 5 April, 1943 it was decided to send U-178 to Penang to establish the naval base there. U-511 sailed soon after to be eventually given to the Japanese in return for rubber:
boat commander sailed returned
U-511 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind France 10/05/43 Kure 7/08/43
It is also reported that U-511 arrived at Penang around 17 July, 1943 as the first German U-boat to enter the base (before U-178).
U-511 scored some success while on the passage to Japan. The boat carried Vice-Admiral Nomura (the Japanese Naval Attache) and in September 1943 was recommissioned as RO-500. U-511's crew was to be a spare crew for the boats which were later to operate from the Japanese-held bases.
After the May 1943 crisis it was decided to look for less strongly defended areas and the idea of sending boats to the Far East was finally approved. Indian Ocean was the only region with almost peace-time shipping arrangement and still with U-boats radius of action.
As the result arrangements were made to replenish U-cruisers still operating around the Cape and to send a new wave of boats for the attack in the Arabian Sea. The latter was scheduled for the end of September 1943 - right after the monsoon period. Because of this the group was named Monsun. The group was to sail in June 1943 at the latest.
The first wave of Monsun boats
9 type IXC and 2 type IXD/2 boats were scheduled for the attack in the Arabian Sea and sailed as group Monsun:
boat commander sailed returned
U-200 Kptlt. Heinrich Schoder Norway 11/06/43 sunk 24/06/43
U-188 Kptlt. Siegfried Ludden France 30/06/43 Penang 31/10/43
U-168 Kptlt. Helmuth Pich France 3/07/43 Penang 11/11/43
U-509 Kptlt. Werner Witte France 3/07/43 sunk 15/07/43
U-514 Kptlt. Hans-Jurgen Auffermann France 3/07/43 sunk 8/07/43
U-532 Frgkpt. Ottoheinrich Junker France 3/07/43 Penang 31/10/43
U-183 Krvkpt. Heinrich Schafer France 07/43 Penang 27/10/43
U-506 Kptlt. Erich Wurdemann France 6/07/43 sunk 12/07/43
U-533 Kptlt. Helmut Hennig France 6/07/43 sunk 16/10/43
U-516 Kptlt. Hans-Rutger Tillessen France 8/07/43 France 23/08/43
U-847 Kptlt. Herbert Kuppish Norway 29/07/43 sunk 27/08/43
Initially U-462 was assigned to the group for refuelling some 300 miles east of St Paul's Rock. A second replenishment was scheduled south of Mauritius from a surface tanker. However, U-462 did not break through the Bay of Biscay in 2 attempts being damaged by aircraft and returned for long repairs on 6/07/43. As most of the Monsun boats were already on the way another tanker, U-487 was assigned but she was sunk on 13 July, 1943 without refuelling Monsun boats.
U-200 was sunk south-west of Iceland while on the outward passage on 24 June, 1943. While in transit U-514 was sunk on 8/07/43, U-506 was sunk on 12/07/43 and U-509 on 15/07/43 - all by aircraft.
After the massacre of U-tankers in the summer 1943 emergency fuelling arrangements were needed for U-boats concentrated around the Azores (including Monsun boats).
It was decided to replenish Monsun boats by employing type IXC boats: U-155 and U-160. U-160 was initially diverted to transfer fuel to U-487 (which was short on fuel after numerous refuelling) but arrived too late and was sunk on 14/07/43 - a day after U-487. Eventually U-516 of the Monsun boats was diverted on emergency refuelling duties. The refuelling of the remaining Monsun boats took place 600 miles WNW of Cape Verde Islands between 21/07 and 27/07/43. U-155 transferred fuel to U-183, U-188 and U-168 while U-516 refuelled U-532 and U-533. Both boats came back to France in August 1943.
U-847 was damaged by ice in the Denmark Strait headed for France but it was decided to use her as a tanker. Between 12/08 and 24/08/43 she refuelled the following boats: U-66, U-415, U-230, U-653, U-257, U-172 and U-508. U-847 was a rather inexperienced boat on her first was cruise (having only sailed from Germany to Norway 6/07 - 20/07/43). An excessive use of radio was reported by commanders of refuelled boats. U-847 was sunk by aircraft on 27 Aug, 1943.
Of the initial 11 Monsun U-boats 4 were destroyed in transit and 2 diverted on emergency refuelling duties (1 of which sunk) so effectively only 5 boats managed to break through: U-168, U-183, U-188, U-532 and U-533. They reached the Indian Ocean without further trouble. Between 11/09 and 13/09/43 they took on fuel from the surface tanker Brake, sent from Penang. The rendezvous took place 450 miles south of Mauritius without incident. Meanwhile the Japanese already started operating in the Arabian Sea (August 1943) and certain arrangements were made to avoid incidents between U-boats and Japanese submarines (attacks on other submarines strictly forbidden). Eventually the Monsun boats were allocated as follows:
U-168 off Bombay (sank 1 ship)
U-183 between Seychelles and the African Coast
U-188 Gulf of Oman (sank 3 ships, also convoy attack)
U-532 south and west coast of India (sank 5 ships)
U-533 Gulf of Aden (lost there
U-188 experienced torpedo failures due to the hot climate affecting torpedo batteries. All the remaining 4 Monsun boats (after the loss of U-533) entered Penang by the beginning of November 1943. The commanders of U-168 and U-183 had been affected by the strain of the long voyage and the commander of U-183 was later replaced by Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind of U-511.
3.3 Further Monsun operations
After sending the first wave of Monsun boats it was decided to send further boats to make up for the loses of the first wave:
boat commander sailed returned
U-219 Krvkpt. Walter Burghagen Norway 22/10/43 France 1/01/44
U-510 Kptlt. Alfred Eick France 3/11/43 Penang 5/04/44
U-848 Krvkpt. Wilhelm Rollman Germany 18/09/43 sunk 5/11/43
U-849 Kptlt. Heinz-Otto Schultze Germany 2/10/43 sunk 25/11/43
U-850 Krvkpt. Klaus Ewerth Germany 18/11/43 sunk 20/12/43
U-219 was due to lay mines off Cape Town and Colombo but was recalled as a tanker. U-848 and U-849 were destroyed off Ascension while U-850 off the Azores - all by aircraft. U-510 refuelled from U-219 and reached the Indian Ocean where in February and March 1944 she scored hits.
While in the Indian Ocean U-510 joined the boats operating from Penang:
boat commander sailed returned
U-178 Kptlt. Wilhelm Spahr Penang 27/11/43 France 24/05/44
U-532 Frgkpt. Ottoheinrich Junker Penang 4/01/44 Penang 19/04/44
U-188 Kptlt. Siegfried Ludden Penang 9/01/44 France 19/06/44
U-168 Kptlt. Helmuth Pich Penang 7/02/44 Jakarta 24/03/44
U-183 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind Penang 10/02/44 Penang 21/03/44
The first boat to operate from Penang was U-178, later joined by 4 Monsun boats and U-510 coming from France. U-178 and U-510 refuelled from the surface tanker Charlotte Schliemann on 28 Jan, 1944 stationed 100 miles south-east of Mauritius. U-510 achieved some success in the Indian Ocean. She attacked convoy PA-69 on 23 Feb, 1944 in the Gulf of Aden and scored hits.
The size of Penang flotilla was limited to 5 U-boats due to the dockyard capacity. The Monsun boats were so short of torpedoes that U-532, U-188 and U-183 were ordered to embark strategic materials and come home via the patrol areas in the Indian Ocean.
U-532 was also to refuel from Charlotte Schliemann but bad weather prevented that on 11 Feb, 1944 when 950 miles east of Madagascar. The tanker was then detected by the Allied while refueling U-532 and forced to scuttle. 41 survivors were captured by the British destroyer HMS Relentless and others rescued by U-532. She later was under depth-charge attacks for 3 days.
U-178 transferred some fuel to U-532 on 26 Feb, 1944 and left for France. U-178 was later attacked by aircraft on 8 March, 1944 off the Cape of Good Hope but survived. She was later to meet the eastbound transport UIT-22 but the latter was sunk by aircraft on 11 March, 1944. She arrived at Bordeaux, France with engines almost out of order.
The remaining 5 boats (4 Monsun from Penang and U-510) carried on operations. Another refuelling was scheduled from the tanker Brake in March 1944. This time U-532, U-188 and U-168 searched the area for some time before. On 12/03/44 U-188 and U-532 refuelled but bad weather again interrupted the operation. Later during the day Brake was detected and forced to scuttle. The survivors were rescued by U-168. The boats had to share fuel among themselves. Eventually U-168, U-532 and U-183 were forced to stay in the Far East due to the fuel shortage. Only U-188 could proceed back to Europe where she was paid off.
3.4 More boats sent to the Far East
One of the reasons for disappointing results was the quality and quantity of torpedoes available at Penang. They were derived from German armed merchant cruisers and blockade-runners and suffered badly from the long storage in the tropics. To make up for this special torpedo transports of type VIIF were sent with torpedoes and spares. Also further operational boats were systematically sent to the Far East:
boat commander sailed returned
U-177 Kptlt. Heinz Buchholz France 2/01/44 sunk 6/02/44
U-1062 Oblt. Karl Albrecht Bergen 3/01/44 Penang 19/04/44
U-852 Kptlt. Heinz-Wilhelm Eck Kiel 18/01/44 sunk 3/04/44
U-1059 Oblt. Güter Leupold Norway 12/02/44 sunk 19/03/44
U-843 Kptlt. Oskar Herwartz France 19/02/44 Jakarta 11/06/44
U-801 Kptlt. Hans-Joachim Brans France 26/02/44 sunk 16/03/44
U-851 Krvkpt. Hannes Weingärtner France 26/02/44 sunk 03/44
U-181 Frgkpt. Kurt Freiwald France 16/03/44 Penang 8/08/44
U-196 Krvkpt. Eitel-Friedrich Kentrat France 16/03/44 Penang 10/08/44
U-537 Kptlt. Peter Schrewe France 25/03/44 Jakarta 2/08/44
U-859 Kptlt. Johann Jebsen Kiel 4/04/44 sunk 23/09/44
U-860 Frgkpt. Paul Buchel Kiel 11/04/44 sunk 15/06/44
U-198 Oblt. Burkhard Heusinger v. Waldegg France 20/04/44 sunk 12/08/44
U-861 Kptlt. Jürgen Oesten Kiel 20/04/44 Penang 22/09/44
U-490 Oblt. Wilhelm Gerlach Norway 6/05/44 sunk 12/06/44
U-862 Kptlt. Heinrich Timm Norway 3/06/44 Penang 9/09/44
U-863 Kptlt. Dietrich von der Esch Norway 26/07/44 sunk 29/09/44
U-180 Oblt. Rolf Riesen France 20/08/44 sunk 22/08/44
U-195 Oblt. Friedrich Steinfeldt France 20/08/44 Jakarta 28/12/44
U-219 Krvkpt. Walter Burghagen France 23/08/44 Jakarta 11/12/44
U-871 Kptlt. Erwin Ganzer Norway 31/08/44 sunk 26/09/44
U-864 Krvkpt. Ralf-Reimar Wolfram Bergen 5/02/45 sunk 9/02/45
U-234 Kptlt. Johann-Heinrich Fehler 1/04/45 surrendered
U-852 sank the Greek ship Peleus on 13/03/44 and survivors were machine-gunned in the water. The commander and officers of U-852 were later captured and after a trial sentenced to death. This was the only proven case of machine-gunning survivors by a German U-boat.
Not all the boats were equipped with schnorkel. Those equipped include: U-180, U-195, U-219, U-863, U-864, U-234.
U-198 reached the Indian Ocean, scored some hits but was sunk by A/S vessels with aircraft assistance. U-859 also survived the Atlantic passage and the Indian Ocean patrol where she scored hits but was sunk by a British submarine off Penang.
U-843 was damaged by aircraft in the Atlantic but reached Penang.
U-859 was torpedoed by an Allied submarine off Penang after a 6 month patrol when she scored hits.
U-180 and U-195 were the only type IXD/1 boats with unreliable experimental fast-running diesel engines. They were completely converted to transports with new diesels. Together with U-219, a minelayer also adapted as a transport, they sailed as a part of the evacuation from French ports. They were bound for the Far East. U-180 was mined but the others reached Jakarta.
U-490 was sent to the Far East to make up for the loss of supply ships in the Indian Ocean.
U-861 initially operated off the Brazilian coast.
U-537 was refuelled by U-183 around 25/06/44.
Of the boats listed above U-852, U-198, U-181, U-537, U-196, U-862, U-861 and U-859 scored hits. The sinkings in the Indian Ocean started on 1/04/44 and ceased in September 1944 when all the boats were either in port or destroyed. The peak moment came in July and August 1944.
It can be seen that the effort was gradually shifted from combat missions to transport missions. Some of the boats were even permanently converted to transports like U-180, U-195, U-219, U-234 and others. How important the transport missions were can be judged from the fact that even in the spring 1945 U-boats were still sailing to the Far East. Some of them with interesting cargoes indeed - like well-known U-234. U-874 and U-875 were loading some 170 tons of mercury, lead and optical glass but never left European waters.
Operations from Penang
Very few patrols with the intention to return back to the Far East bases were attempted by the Monsun boats. U-168, U-183 and U-532 all made a patrol early in 1944 but in fact U-183 and U-532 were intended to sail to Europe. Further actions include:
boat commander sailed returned
U-183 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind Penang 17/05/44 Penang 7/07/44
U-181 Frgkpt. Kurt Freiwald Penang 19/10/44 Jakarta 5/01/45
U-862 Krvkpt. Heinrich Timm Jakarta 18/11/44 Jakarta 15/02/45
U-183 operated off the south coast of India. Around 25 June, 1944 she refuelled eastbound U-537. She sank just 1 ship. U-181 sank 1 ship (and arrived at Penang according to the evacuation orders given meanwhile to the Far East U-boat flotilla.
U-862 operated in the Pacific off Australia and actually penetrated Sydney harbour and sank the 7180-ton American steamer Robert J. Walker of 160-miles of the Australian coast on 24 Dec, 1944. U-862 was the only U-boat to operate in the Pacific
Jason yes the mini's damaged a BB
30th-31st May 1942
Japanese mini subs from I-16 & I-20 torpedo and badly damage Ramillies in Diego Suarez, but it manages to steam to Durban south Africa for repairs (she was out till Jan 44
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>
4 U-boats were given to Japan before Germany surrendered and became IJN subs (U-181,195,219 and 862)
U-181 became IJN I-501 May 45 type IXD2
U-195 became I-506 May 45 type IXD1
U-219 became I-505 8 May 45 Bativia type XB
U-862 became I-502 6 May 45 Singapore type IXD2
The idea of stationing German U-boats in Penang or Sabang for operations in the Indian Ocean was first proposed by the Japanese in December 1942. As no supplies were available at either location the idea was turned down (although a number of U-cruisers from the first wave operated around the Cape at the time).
The idea was raised again in the spring 1943. Additionally, the Japanese requested 2 U-boats to be handed over for copying. Although Doenitz saw no point in such a handover, it was decided to give a type IXC boat.
As long as targets were available in the Atlantic, Doenitz considered sending U-boats on a large scale to the Far East as unprofitable. However, on 5 April, 1943 it was decided to send U-178 to Penang to establish the naval base there. U-511 sailed soon after to be eventually given to the Japanese in return for rubber:
boat commander sailed returned
U-511 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind France 10/05/43 Kure 7/08/43
It is also reported that U-511 arrived at Penang around 17 July, 1943 as the first German U-boat to enter the base (before U-178).
U-511 scored some success while on the passage to Japan. The boat carried Vice-Admiral Nomura (the Japanese Naval Attache) and in September 1943 was recommissioned as RO-500. U-511's crew was to be a spare crew for the boats which were later to operate from the Japanese-held bases.
After the May 1943 crisis it was decided to look for less strongly defended areas and the idea of sending boats to the Far East was finally approved. Indian Ocean was the only region with almost peace-time shipping arrangement and still with U-boats radius of action.
As the result arrangements were made to replenish U-cruisers still operating around the Cape and to send a new wave of boats for the attack in the Arabian Sea. The latter was scheduled for the end of September 1943 - right after the monsoon period. Because of this the group was named Monsun. The group was to sail in June 1943 at the latest.
The first wave of Monsun boats
9 type IXC and 2 type IXD/2 boats were scheduled for the attack in the Arabian Sea and sailed as group Monsun:
boat commander sailed returned
U-200 Kptlt. Heinrich Schoder Norway 11/06/43 sunk 24/06/43
U-188 Kptlt. Siegfried Ludden France 30/06/43 Penang 31/10/43
U-168 Kptlt. Helmuth Pich France 3/07/43 Penang 11/11/43
U-509 Kptlt. Werner Witte France 3/07/43 sunk 15/07/43
U-514 Kptlt. Hans-Jurgen Auffermann France 3/07/43 sunk 8/07/43
U-532 Frgkpt. Ottoheinrich Junker France 3/07/43 Penang 31/10/43
U-183 Krvkpt. Heinrich Schafer France 07/43 Penang 27/10/43
U-506 Kptlt. Erich Wurdemann France 6/07/43 sunk 12/07/43
U-533 Kptlt. Helmut Hennig France 6/07/43 sunk 16/10/43
U-516 Kptlt. Hans-Rutger Tillessen France 8/07/43 France 23/08/43
U-847 Kptlt. Herbert Kuppish Norway 29/07/43 sunk 27/08/43
Initially U-462 was assigned to the group for refuelling some 300 miles east of St Paul's Rock. A second replenishment was scheduled south of Mauritius from a surface tanker. However, U-462 did not break through the Bay of Biscay in 2 attempts being damaged by aircraft and returned for long repairs on 6/07/43. As most of the Monsun boats were already on the way another tanker, U-487 was assigned but she was sunk on 13 July, 1943 without refuelling Monsun boats.
U-200 was sunk south-west of Iceland while on the outward passage on 24 June, 1943. While in transit U-514 was sunk on 8/07/43, U-506 was sunk on 12/07/43 and U-509 on 15/07/43 - all by aircraft.
After the massacre of U-tankers in the summer 1943 emergency fuelling arrangements were needed for U-boats concentrated around the Azores (including Monsun boats).
It was decided to replenish Monsun boats by employing type IXC boats: U-155 and U-160. U-160 was initially diverted to transfer fuel to U-487 (which was short on fuel after numerous refuelling) but arrived too late and was sunk on 14/07/43 - a day after U-487. Eventually U-516 of the Monsun boats was diverted on emergency refuelling duties. The refuelling of the remaining Monsun boats took place 600 miles WNW of Cape Verde Islands between 21/07 and 27/07/43. U-155 transferred fuel to U-183, U-188 and U-168 while U-516 refuelled U-532 and U-533. Both boats came back to France in August 1943.
U-847 was damaged by ice in the Denmark Strait headed for France but it was decided to use her as a tanker. Between 12/08 and 24/08/43 she refuelled the following boats: U-66, U-415, U-230, U-653, U-257, U-172 and U-508. U-847 was a rather inexperienced boat on her first was cruise (having only sailed from Germany to Norway 6/07 - 20/07/43). An excessive use of radio was reported by commanders of refuelled boats. U-847 was sunk by aircraft on 27 Aug, 1943.
Of the initial 11 Monsun U-boats 4 were destroyed in transit and 2 diverted on emergency refuelling duties (1 of which sunk) so effectively only 5 boats managed to break through: U-168, U-183, U-188, U-532 and U-533. They reached the Indian Ocean without further trouble. Between 11/09 and 13/09/43 they took on fuel from the surface tanker Brake, sent from Penang. The rendezvous took place 450 miles south of Mauritius without incident. Meanwhile the Japanese already started operating in the Arabian Sea (August 1943) and certain arrangements were made to avoid incidents between U-boats and Japanese submarines (attacks on other submarines strictly forbidden). Eventually the Monsun boats were allocated as follows:
U-168 off Bombay (sank 1 ship)
U-183 between Seychelles and the African Coast
U-188 Gulf of Oman (sank 3 ships, also convoy attack)
U-532 south and west coast of India (sank 5 ships)
U-533 Gulf of Aden (lost there
U-188 experienced torpedo failures due to the hot climate affecting torpedo batteries. All the remaining 4 Monsun boats (after the loss of U-533) entered Penang by the beginning of November 1943. The commanders of U-168 and U-183 had been affected by the strain of the long voyage and the commander of U-183 was later replaced by Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind of U-511.
3.3 Further Monsun operations
After sending the first wave of Monsun boats it was decided to send further boats to make up for the loses of the first wave:
boat commander sailed returned
U-219 Krvkpt. Walter Burghagen Norway 22/10/43 France 1/01/44
U-510 Kptlt. Alfred Eick France 3/11/43 Penang 5/04/44
U-848 Krvkpt. Wilhelm Rollman Germany 18/09/43 sunk 5/11/43
U-849 Kptlt. Heinz-Otto Schultze Germany 2/10/43 sunk 25/11/43
U-850 Krvkpt. Klaus Ewerth Germany 18/11/43 sunk 20/12/43
U-219 was due to lay mines off Cape Town and Colombo but was recalled as a tanker. U-848 and U-849 were destroyed off Ascension while U-850 off the Azores - all by aircraft. U-510 refuelled from U-219 and reached the Indian Ocean where in February and March 1944 she scored hits.
While in the Indian Ocean U-510 joined the boats operating from Penang:
boat commander sailed returned
U-178 Kptlt. Wilhelm Spahr Penang 27/11/43 France 24/05/44
U-532 Frgkpt. Ottoheinrich Junker Penang 4/01/44 Penang 19/04/44
U-188 Kptlt. Siegfried Ludden Penang 9/01/44 France 19/06/44
U-168 Kptlt. Helmuth Pich Penang 7/02/44 Jakarta 24/03/44
U-183 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind Penang 10/02/44 Penang 21/03/44
The first boat to operate from Penang was U-178, later joined by 4 Monsun boats and U-510 coming from France. U-178 and U-510 refuelled from the surface tanker Charlotte Schliemann on 28 Jan, 1944 stationed 100 miles south-east of Mauritius. U-510 achieved some success in the Indian Ocean. She attacked convoy PA-69 on 23 Feb, 1944 in the Gulf of Aden and scored hits.
The size of Penang flotilla was limited to 5 U-boats due to the dockyard capacity. The Monsun boats were so short of torpedoes that U-532, U-188 and U-183 were ordered to embark strategic materials and come home via the patrol areas in the Indian Ocean.
U-532 was also to refuel from Charlotte Schliemann but bad weather prevented that on 11 Feb, 1944 when 950 miles east of Madagascar. The tanker was then detected by the Allied while refueling U-532 and forced to scuttle. 41 survivors were captured by the British destroyer HMS Relentless and others rescued by U-532. She later was under depth-charge attacks for 3 days.
U-178 transferred some fuel to U-532 on 26 Feb, 1944 and left for France. U-178 was later attacked by aircraft on 8 March, 1944 off the Cape of Good Hope but survived. She was later to meet the eastbound transport UIT-22 but the latter was sunk by aircraft on 11 March, 1944. She arrived at Bordeaux, France with engines almost out of order.
The remaining 5 boats (4 Monsun from Penang and U-510) carried on operations. Another refuelling was scheduled from the tanker Brake in March 1944. This time U-532, U-188 and U-168 searched the area for some time before. On 12/03/44 U-188 and U-532 refuelled but bad weather again interrupted the operation. Later during the day Brake was detected and forced to scuttle. The survivors were rescued by U-168. The boats had to share fuel among themselves. Eventually U-168, U-532 and U-183 were forced to stay in the Far East due to the fuel shortage. Only U-188 could proceed back to Europe where she was paid off.
3.4 More boats sent to the Far East
One of the reasons for disappointing results was the quality and quantity of torpedoes available at Penang. They were derived from German armed merchant cruisers and blockade-runners and suffered badly from the long storage in the tropics. To make up for this special torpedo transports of type VIIF were sent with torpedoes and spares. Also further operational boats were systematically sent to the Far East:
boat commander sailed returned
U-177 Kptlt. Heinz Buchholz France 2/01/44 sunk 6/02/44
U-1062 Oblt. Karl Albrecht Bergen 3/01/44 Penang 19/04/44
U-852 Kptlt. Heinz-Wilhelm Eck Kiel 18/01/44 sunk 3/04/44
U-1059 Oblt. Güter Leupold Norway 12/02/44 sunk 19/03/44
U-843 Kptlt. Oskar Herwartz France 19/02/44 Jakarta 11/06/44
U-801 Kptlt. Hans-Joachim Brans France 26/02/44 sunk 16/03/44
U-851 Krvkpt. Hannes Weingärtner France 26/02/44 sunk 03/44
U-181 Frgkpt. Kurt Freiwald France 16/03/44 Penang 8/08/44
U-196 Krvkpt. Eitel-Friedrich Kentrat France 16/03/44 Penang 10/08/44
U-537 Kptlt. Peter Schrewe France 25/03/44 Jakarta 2/08/44
U-859 Kptlt. Johann Jebsen Kiel 4/04/44 sunk 23/09/44
U-860 Frgkpt. Paul Buchel Kiel 11/04/44 sunk 15/06/44
U-198 Oblt. Burkhard Heusinger v. Waldegg France 20/04/44 sunk 12/08/44
U-861 Kptlt. Jürgen Oesten Kiel 20/04/44 Penang 22/09/44
U-490 Oblt. Wilhelm Gerlach Norway 6/05/44 sunk 12/06/44
U-862 Kptlt. Heinrich Timm Norway 3/06/44 Penang 9/09/44
U-863 Kptlt. Dietrich von der Esch Norway 26/07/44 sunk 29/09/44
U-180 Oblt. Rolf Riesen France 20/08/44 sunk 22/08/44
U-195 Oblt. Friedrich Steinfeldt France 20/08/44 Jakarta 28/12/44
U-219 Krvkpt. Walter Burghagen France 23/08/44 Jakarta 11/12/44
U-871 Kptlt. Erwin Ganzer Norway 31/08/44 sunk 26/09/44
U-864 Krvkpt. Ralf-Reimar Wolfram Bergen 5/02/45 sunk 9/02/45
U-234 Kptlt. Johann-Heinrich Fehler 1/04/45 surrendered
U-852 sank the Greek ship Peleus on 13/03/44 and survivors were machine-gunned in the water. The commander and officers of U-852 were later captured and after a trial sentenced to death. This was the only proven case of machine-gunning survivors by a German U-boat.
Not all the boats were equipped with schnorkel. Those equipped include: U-180, U-195, U-219, U-863, U-864, U-234.
U-198 reached the Indian Ocean, scored some hits but was sunk by A/S vessels with aircraft assistance. U-859 also survived the Atlantic passage and the Indian Ocean patrol where she scored hits but was sunk by a British submarine off Penang.
U-843 was damaged by aircraft in the Atlantic but reached Penang.
U-859 was torpedoed by an Allied submarine off Penang after a 6 month patrol when she scored hits.
U-180 and U-195 were the only type IXD/1 boats with unreliable experimental fast-running diesel engines. They were completely converted to transports with new diesels. Together with U-219, a minelayer also adapted as a transport, they sailed as a part of the evacuation from French ports. They were bound for the Far East. U-180 was mined but the others reached Jakarta.
U-490 was sent to the Far East to make up for the loss of supply ships in the Indian Ocean.
U-861 initially operated off the Brazilian coast.
U-537 was refuelled by U-183 around 25/06/44.
Of the boats listed above U-852, U-198, U-181, U-537, U-196, U-862, U-861 and U-859 scored hits. The sinkings in the Indian Ocean started on 1/04/44 and ceased in September 1944 when all the boats were either in port or destroyed. The peak moment came in July and August 1944.
It can be seen that the effort was gradually shifted from combat missions to transport missions. Some of the boats were even permanently converted to transports like U-180, U-195, U-219, U-234 and others. How important the transport missions were can be judged from the fact that even in the spring 1945 U-boats were still sailing to the Far East. Some of them with interesting cargoes indeed - like well-known U-234. U-874 and U-875 were loading some 170 tons of mercury, lead and optical glass but never left European waters.
Operations from Penang
Very few patrols with the intention to return back to the Far East bases were attempted by the Monsun boats. U-168, U-183 and U-532 all made a patrol early in 1944 but in fact U-183 and U-532 were intended to sail to Europe. Further actions include:
boat commander sailed returned
U-183 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind Penang 17/05/44 Penang 7/07/44
U-181 Frgkpt. Kurt Freiwald Penang 19/10/44 Jakarta 5/01/45
U-862 Krvkpt. Heinrich Timm Jakarta 18/11/44 Jakarta 15/02/45
U-183 operated off the south coast of India. Around 25 June, 1944 she refuelled eastbound U-537. She sank just 1 ship. U-181 sank 1 ship (and arrived at Penang according to the evacuation orders given meanwhile to the Far East U-boat flotilla.
U-862 operated in the Pacific off Australia and actually penetrated Sydney harbour and sank the 7180-ton American steamer Robert J. Walker of 160-miles of the Australian coast on 24 Dec, 1944. U-862 was the only U-boat to operate in the Pacific
Jason yes the mini's damaged a BB
30th-31st May 1942
Japanese mini subs from I-16 & I-20 torpedo and badly damage Ramillies in Diego Suarez, but it manages to steam to Durban south Africa for repairs (she was out till Jan 44
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
That was a long list.
As you all can see the U-boats expended a lot of effort for very little in return, especially when you consider what FIVE boats did off the US Atlantic coast in the first few months of 1942.
The Japanese never even lived to any of ther terms of their agreements with Germany. Germany provided boats,loaded with materials, for Japan and Japan wouldn't even let the Germans have any fuel from their Malaysia bases.
<img src="mad.gif" border="0">
As you all can see the U-boats expended a lot of effort for very little in return, especially when you consider what FIVE boats did off the US Atlantic coast in the first few months of 1942.
The Japanese never even lived to any of ther terms of their agreements with Germany. Germany provided boats,loaded with materials, for Japan and Japan wouldn't even let the Germans have any fuel from their Malaysia bases.
<img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Still playing PacWar (but no so much anymore)...
Hi, on 8 Dec 1941 14th Army had along with the 2 infantry div and 1 Bde, assigned to Army HQ 2 Tank Regts the 4th with 38xM-95 tanks and the 7th with 32xM-89 2arty Rgt and 5 Bn and 2 Rgt of combat engineers this could be consolidated as 14th Army Support Bde
25th Army has the 3rd Tank Bde (really a division since it is 4 Rgts 1st 37xM-97 & 20xM-95 2nd and 6th Tank Rgts (same as 1st) 14th Rgt 45xM-95 total number of tanks in Bde 216 (too many IMO to leave out of game)
16th Army has the 8th Tank Rgt (no numbers but most likely similar to others)
The 'Dash Forward' Parachute division was located on Hainan Island composed of 2 Rgts of 650 men each (3 para company and 1 eng company) so it's not really a Div but a 2 Bn Rgt (CO was a Col)
25th Army has the 3rd Tank Bde (really a division since it is 4 Rgts 1st 37xM-97 & 20xM-95 2nd and 6th Tank Rgts (same as 1st) 14th Rgt 45xM-95 total number of tanks in Bde 216 (too many IMO to leave out of game)
16th Army has the 8th Tank Rgt (no numbers but most likely similar to others)
The 'Dash Forward' Parachute division was located on Hainan Island composed of 2 Rgts of 650 men each (3 para company and 1 eng company) so it's not really a Div but a 2 Bn Rgt (CO was a Col)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
The tank regiments are included in the Divisional TOE, since the creation of actual regiments/brigades of tanks will not represent them (since tank Regiments were actually Battalion sized, and if they were made as actual regiments, they would have full numbers of Infantry and Artillery). The 3rd Tank Brigade Group was only really on paper, since its units were attached to the 2nd Guard and the 5th Mechanized Divisions. Units from this "Brigade" were quickly sent to Burma to join the 56th Division TOE.Originally posted by Mogami:
Hi, on 8 Dec 1941 14th Army had along with the 2 infantry div and 1 Bde, assigned to Army HQ 2 Tank Regts the 4th with 38xM-95 tanks and the 7th with 32xM-89 2arty Rgt and 5 Bn and 2 Rgt of combat engineers this could be consolidated as 14th Army Support Bde
25th Army has the 3rd Tank Bde (really a division since it is 4 Rgts 1st 37xM-97 & 20xM-95 2nd and 6th Tank Rgts (same as 1st) 14th Rgt 45xM-95 total number of tanks in Bde 216 (too many IMO to leave out of game)
16th Army has the 8th Tank Rgt (no numbers but most likely similar to others)
The 'Dash Forward' Parachute division was located on Hainan Island composed of 2 Rgts of 650 men each (3 para company and 1 eng company) so it's not really a Div but a 2 Bn Rgt (CO was a Col)
The Japanese rarely had Tank only formations lasting as such for very long. The 4 Tank Divisions, plus some late war Tank Brigades were used, but those Brigades used early in the war were either quickly disbanded (with Tank Regiments being sent to Divisions) or in the case of those units in Manchuria changed from a Brigade unit to a Divisional unit.
The OOB for the Japanese Army changed drastically from 1941, units (like Tank Brigade Groups, and Army Engineers) were quickly divided up and sent to other theatres/units. They are represented, but only indifferently (many IJA Divisions start with 50+ Tanks, equal to about 1 Tank Regiment)
I did toy with the possibility of using these units, but cannot justify their inclusion since there was no record about them existing beyond early 1942, or were they ever really in action as a single unit (plus they ate up a lot of vital Japanese LCU slots! Good idea though!
The "Dash" Forward Division was never larger than a weak brigade/regiment, and is included as the 1st Para Brigade.
I modified the resource levels of just about every base to reflet not only heavy natural resouses, but that of other vital resources (such as food production). I actually was able to increase the value of territory control to a point where it effects victory a lot more than before. Originally, the territory points for both the allies and japanese for 1941 was the following...
16 400 (Japan)
21 500 (Allies)
37 900 (total)
But increasing resources results in the following for 1941...
25 900 (Japan)
45 700 (Allies)
70 000 (total)
Now, this means that territory control values have been at least doubled. So, conquering resource bases (Dutch East Indies, India-Burma, Japanese Home Islands, Chinese Coast, US West Coast) could turn the tide of battle merely by taking away control points.
In the Solomans 1942 campaign, where Japan starts off with control of the Resource areas of the Dutch East Indies (in the original and up to the 2.3 version) you have the following of control points...
22 600 (Japan)
14 900 (Allies)
37 500 (total)
Even though the Allies still have Australia, US West Coast and India, Japan still has a vast majority of control, making an allied VP victory only possible if they retake the Dutch East Indies, or Japan, even still, Kills VP will rank MUCH higher than control VP, making them less important. Japan controls almost twice as much territory points. With most of this being in the East Indies, where the US do not attack, then the Allies must win against Japan by causing astronomical amounts of casualties (resulting in strategic advances limited merely to taking the Marianas and bombing Japan).
However, in the new 2.4 version, in the Solomans campaign where Japan controls the East Indies, Burma, Chinese Coast and Japan, the control VP points are as here...
35 800 (Japan)
35 200 (Allies)
70 000 (total)
So, the control of bases is 50-50, meaning that if Japan wants to win, it must attack India, Australia or the US West Coast. It also means that the Allies need to cause and capture less Japanese territory, and need less VP kills to win (resulting in a sligthly easier, but more realistic game for the Allies).
With twice as many VP's set for controlling bases, the game will not be taken over merely by KILL point VP's to determine who wins. Instead of 37 000 Control VP's to fight over, there are 70 000 Control VP's. With kill points typically getting into the 10's of thousands, the game could rest not merely on destroying ships and LCU's, but taking critical bases.
16 400 (Japan)
21 500 (Allies)
37 900 (total)
But increasing resources results in the following for 1941...
25 900 (Japan)
45 700 (Allies)
70 000 (total)
Now, this means that territory control values have been at least doubled. So, conquering resource bases (Dutch East Indies, India-Burma, Japanese Home Islands, Chinese Coast, US West Coast) could turn the tide of battle merely by taking away control points.
In the Solomans 1942 campaign, where Japan starts off with control of the Resource areas of the Dutch East Indies (in the original and up to the 2.3 version) you have the following of control points...
22 600 (Japan)
14 900 (Allies)
37 500 (total)
Even though the Allies still have Australia, US West Coast and India, Japan still has a vast majority of control, making an allied VP victory only possible if they retake the Dutch East Indies, or Japan, even still, Kills VP will rank MUCH higher than control VP, making them less important. Japan controls almost twice as much territory points. With most of this being in the East Indies, where the US do not attack, then the Allies must win against Japan by causing astronomical amounts of casualties (resulting in strategic advances limited merely to taking the Marianas and bombing Japan).
However, in the new 2.4 version, in the Solomans campaign where Japan controls the East Indies, Burma, Chinese Coast and Japan, the control VP points are as here...
35 800 (Japan)
35 200 (Allies)
70 000 (total)
So, the control of bases is 50-50, meaning that if Japan wants to win, it must attack India, Australia or the US West Coast. It also means that the Allies need to cause and capture less Japanese territory, and need less VP kills to win (resulting in a sligthly easier, but more realistic game for the Allies).
With twice as many VP's set for controlling bases, the game will not be taken over merely by KILL point VP's to determine who wins. Instead of 37 000 Control VP's to fight over, there are 70 000 Control VP's. With kill points typically getting into the 10's of thousands, the game could rest not merely on destroying ships and LCU's, but taking critical bases.
Question about the Akitsuki DD's.
In 1942 the Akitsuki DD's started off with the following armament...
8x 3.9"
10x 25mm
4x 13mm
4x Long Lancers
By 1945 they had the following...
8x 3.9"
51x 25mm
4x 13mm
4x Long Lancers
Pacific War upgrades all IJN Destroyers to a maximum of 21x 25mm AA Guns (if they had fewer then 21 of them). However, the game only upgrades the 25mm AA armament to 21, while the Akitsuki class historically had up to 51.
Question is, should I leave the AA weaponry at 10x 25mm in 1941, or should I change it to reflect the actual number reached in 1945? So, should the Akitsuki DD's start off with 51x 25mm?
The dilemma is, either the Akitsuki's start off with a supremely heavy AA armament early in the war, or they never become as strong of a AA Destroyer as they actually were later in the war.
I changed many RN vessels to reflet their later war AA armament (since the King George V class wouldn't be much of a vessel if they remained at their 1941 AA armament, and the game does not upgrade 2 Pounder and 20mm AA like they did 40mm). For the King George V, they start off with 80x 2 Pounder, and 65x 20mm. They are powerful ships, but since only one appears in 1941, having unhistorically high AA will not really affect the war much.
Should I give the IJN the same benefit that I gave the RN?
In 1942 the Akitsuki DD's started off with the following armament...
8x 3.9"
10x 25mm
4x 13mm
4x Long Lancers
By 1945 they had the following...
8x 3.9"
51x 25mm
4x 13mm
4x Long Lancers
Pacific War upgrades all IJN Destroyers to a maximum of 21x 25mm AA Guns (if they had fewer then 21 of them). However, the game only upgrades the 25mm AA armament to 21, while the Akitsuki class historically had up to 51.
Question is, should I leave the AA weaponry at 10x 25mm in 1941, or should I change it to reflect the actual number reached in 1945? So, should the Akitsuki DD's start off with 51x 25mm?
The dilemma is, either the Akitsuki's start off with a supremely heavy AA armament early in the war, or they never become as strong of a AA Destroyer as they actually were later in the war.
I changed many RN vessels to reflet their later war AA armament (since the King George V class wouldn't be much of a vessel if they remained at their 1941 AA armament, and the game does not upgrade 2 Pounder and 20mm AA like they did 40mm). For the King George V, they start off with 80x 2 Pounder, and 65x 20mm. They are powerful ships, but since only one appears in 1941, having unhistorically high AA will not really affect the war much.
Should I give the IJN the same benefit that I gave the RN?
Hi, am I reading this right? In version 2.4 you want to force the Japanese into attacking the West Coast Australia or India? Japan never has a problem with resources, she could not (does not) use what she gets. Now the game is simply you must conquer the enemy home country. (capture the flag) Since the old defend the perimeter stratagy will not work any more (OK I never liked it any way)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!