Servere Issues - Aircraft Preformance?

[mdiehl]

Not true..The P 39's failed to climb higher because in the Solomons they did not have sufficient time to climb to those heights,(even after they got RADAR because the plane was not a good climber), and some of the planes did not have oxygen,(even the ones with provision for the tanks.)In that clime, oxygen was needed between 12 and 15k, depending on various factors.

I wasn't thinking of the Solomons. I was thinking of New Guinea. The Solomons a.c. to which you refer, depending on the time to which you are referring, were, possibly, P-400s. ALL of the P-400s (export P-39s) sent to the Solomons in the early going lacked oxygen bottles and some of the P-39s did as well.

The Japanese fighter pilots certainly did descend when they were able to, because being warrior samurai Bushido thought it better to kill fellow warriors than to protect friendly bombers.

That is a nice theory that is not in fact correct.

The American F4F's would always try to gain an altitude advantage because the F4F had a maneuverability edge on the A6m2 at height, provided the F4F could maintain it's speed and height advantage.(Did you know that?).

That also is not correct. The F4F had a maneuverability advantage at relatively high airspeed. The airspeed at which that advantage became apparent varied with altitude. At lower altitudes the advantage occurred around 280 mph. At higher altitudes the advantage was not as great, because the pressure loading on the Zero's control surfaces were not as great. What the F4F *did* have at high altitude (that the Zero did not, depending as ever on both models), is a really effective blower.

An advantage of height is ALWAYS preferred because height is the first thing lost with EVERY turn, and speed is the next,(which also causes a loss of....height.)

Ah, no. You can trade height to sustain speed, or you can lose speed and sustain height, to a point, depending on your initial airspeed.

IIRC, ELF is a pilot. He certainly has more time in the air rhan I, and I believe he has enough flight time to better evaluate the capabilities of planes performances, (based on aerodynamics and kinetic physics), than I( a lowly J-3 jockey) might have, but even the most basic understanding of aviation principles understands this last point.

I respect the Elf but do not consider his opinion about the performance characteristics of WW2 aircraft to be more authoritative than any of the many, many, many sources with which I am very, very, very familiar.

MDiehl, I appreciate some of the things you bring to the forum, however, as Dirty Harry sez: "A man should know his limitations", and as you have been told in past, aviation skills or the knowledge thereof seem to be one of yours.

I do not think you are qualified to assess my knowledge of aviation, either modern nor of the WW2 era. I also think you're not qualified to assess where my limitations lie. Your, errm, claims in your reply vary from non-sequitur to factually incorrect, and you don't seem very familiar with in particular the operational histories of many P-39s or P-400s or their uses in the Southern Pacific. I mean no disrespect in saying that, but the plain fact is that your comments aren't supported by the facts.

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: pad152

It almost sounds like us WITP players will be at a disadvantage playing AE because of all of the new stuff to get your head around, I can just hear it now, it looks like WITP but doesn't play like WITP, so it must be broken! [8|]

I hope the manual explains all of these things! [;)]


I'll bet the first post after AE's release will be about the results of the first air battle, can someone explain these results! [:D]

Hopefully, there will be more messages in the combat replay to help explain what is going on. 'Incoming raid detect by radar' - '10xP-39 airborne CAP intercepting, climbing to altitude 15000' - '25xP-39 ground CAP scambling'

Stuff like that would help I think.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

[:D]

The sky is blue....[8|][;)]

Thats incorrect. The sky is purple.

[:)]

[Feinder]

I personally think the altitude settings are have always been a steaming pile of poo.  As a commander weilding more responsability than Nimitz, MacArthur, Sommerville or even Chiang-Kai-Shek - I shouldn't be tasked with setting my squadrons at 1000' increments or even Low-Med-High.  But since that's NOT the case, I'll throw in my lot with the others in hoping that the intercept algorithm has improved to where my aircraft will not suicide themselves against every high-level mission.
 
-F-

[FeurerKrieg]

Right - that should generate another little message - 'local commander stops intercept due to altitude disadvantage' or something like that.

[m10bob]

I don't want the AE team to feel they need to over-complicate things just to improve the game...

[1275psi]

actually -we don't think he does[8|]
Im actually looking forward to some one trying to tell our proffesional fighter pilot "that its not really like that"[:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'd like to see AE eliminate the "Zero bonus" entirely and bump all Allied exp levels 20 points across the board. As it stands, it already vastly exaggerates the quality of Japanese aviation.

So when is the last time you played?

[1275psi]

PS

Love the work on the air model -it is patently obvious (as a pilot) that the actual mechanics of air combat are going to be taken care of in this game -and this answers Japans question in the positive.

Im not a fighter pilot obviously -but I understand very easily how bounce works, hieght for speed, energy ect work -to see all this modelled is marvoulous.

I think people forget how a lot of this war was fought -via MK 1 eyeball.
I have spent half my flying life trying to spot other planes in the sky - so i can join em.
ITS BLOODY HARD. The sky is huge

And I thank the heavens I never had to fly a fighter at 15000 feet - with only a 100 hrs under my belt -and hope I spotted That buggar 5000 feet above me bearing down with gifts of death.[&o][&o][&o]

[bradfordkay]

I'm interested to see what the effect of Elf's work will be on gameplay. It seems to me that it can only be an improvement...

One question, though. Since altitude is going to be even more important in AE, will the altitudes of enemy aircraft be reported in the combat reports in PBEM the way is is in solo play? I rarely (or is it never?) see the bomber's altitudes listed in the combat reports in PBEM.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

PS

Love the work on the air model -it is patently obvious (as a pilot) that the actual mechanics of air combat are going to be taken care of in this game -and this answers Japans question in the positive.

Im not a fighter pilot obviously -but I understand very easily how bounce works, hieght for speed, energy ect work -to see all this modelled is marvoulous.

I think people forget how a lot of this war was fought -via MK 1 eyeball.
I have spent half my flying life trying to spot other planes in the sky - so i can join em.
ITS BLOODY HARD. The sky is huge

..and things don't need to be far away to be invisible. Tommy Thompson taught me to lift the wings on that Cub to scan the sky and one day I did this in time to see a Convair 440 at my 4 o'clock headed straight at me, those BIG siver blades flashing in the sun.
It was gonna go over me, but was close enough to throw that featherweight all over the sky had I not been aware.[X(]

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I personally think the altitude settings are have always been a steaming pile of poo.  As a commander weilding more responsability than Nimitz, MacArthur, Sommerville or even Chiang-Kai-Shek - I shouldn't be tasked with setting my squadrons at 1000' increments or even Low-Med-High.  But since that's NOT the case, I'll throw in my lot with the others in hoping that the intercept algorithm has improved to where my aircraft will not suicide themselves against every high-level mission.

-F-

This statement assumes that when combat is joined your fighters always have a choice whether to stay and play or not. That was rarely the case, more so for the Allies in the early war, more so for the Japanese in the late war.

Power projection by Air was intent upon forcing the other side to battle under the most egregious circumstances. That said there is one way to avoid combat if you choose to. Vacate the Hex in question and your enemy will have to leave you alone. Just be careful, because despite what the right honorable Gentleman from the Steakhouse says, if you play the Brave Sir Robin in the early years as the Allies, your job of attriting the IJ Air forces will be that much tougher.

Unfortunately the Air Routine is not so complex as to be capable of extending the least advantaged side the courtesy of a “do over” or a “training timeout”. Nor are the 1s and 0s that are in command of your Air Units so smart as to realize it isn’t beneficial to climb into a swarm of Zekes with their Iron Dogs.

It is what it is. There are always going to be limits to what is possible. And remember this is a game. You can dress it up all you want, but even the strictest simulation is still meant be fun, and to be a game.

If it makes you all feel any better, here are some things I have seen in testing.

This is Combat at PH Dec 7 1941. Radar is up. The Zekes are on escort for the KB raid at 15k’. P-40s are CAP’ing at 23k’. My explanation of the routine FOLLOWS the boxed data.

Start air-air flight round

Attacker Flight of 2 P-40B Warhawk planes from 18th PG/78th PS

Defender Flight of 3 A6M2-21 Zero planes from EII-1 Daitai With higher Detection level

Two opposing flights are defined

The P-40Bs detect the Zero Escort.

...Attacking P-40B with skill (60) attempts to engage the Zekes

Zero 1 tries to evade attack…succeeds

Zero 2 tries to evade attack…succeeds

Zero 3 tries to evade attack…fails
....Pilot Skill:92

Pilots jockey for position. Each Zero checks against the attack of the P-40B and a target, Zero 3, is selected


......planes engage in combat

P-40B Warhawk Alt:23000 (attacker)*
Zero 3 Alt:15000 (defender)
Several calculations are made…sorry edited for content

The P-40 Starts at 23k where it MVRs with an 11. But it enjoys an 8k' Altitude advantage so MVR is increased to 19. A 10 MPH speed advantage (not shown above) isn't enough to reduce the Zeroes MVR, so the Zeke remains at its natural 15k' MVR 33. The Zero pilot is a Veteran at 91 EXP. What you cannot see is how end EXP favors the Japanese pilot due to the MVR differential. EXP is heavily modified in the final tally when MOR, FAT, DISR, MVR etc are considered. This makes what would essentially be a slam dunk for the P-40B more of a fight. The higher natural MVR of the Zeke helps offset the modified MVR of the P-40 From an Altitude advantage

so...the Zeke fires first but is climbing up hill and is defending for all intents and purposes. Defending in this sense means that he is positionally disadvantaged. IT doesn’t mean he cannot fire. His EXP, detection of the impending attack, and A/C performance advantage (MVR) have mitigated the what could have been a one way encounter and he has an opportunity to salvage the situation.

Zero 3 fires his 7.7mm Type 89 MG at P-40B Warhawk,
Zero 3 fires his 20mm Type 99 Cannon at P-40B Warhawk

6 points of damage are done to the Diving P-40B

...The Veteran Zeke pilot turns and climbs into the Diving attack of the P-40 and fires first!!! A hit! But it isn't enough...the roll didn’t go his way.

P-40B Warhawk fires 4 x .30 Browning MG at Zero 3 for 16 points of Damage
P-40B Warhawk fires 2 x .50 Browning MG at Zero 3 for 12 points of damage
Zero 3 of defending flight has been killed

End plane-plane round

The moderately Experienced (60) P-40B Pilot has the position, speed, and firepower to decide the contest in one pass...This is the first of many China war veterans (91) to fall to American guns...

This literally was the first kill on Dec 7 1941 in a turn I ran. I forget what happened after this specifically, but typically the weight of numbers will end up being in favor of the Japanese on turn one and especially over PH. That isn’t to say that depending on the rolls the allies won’t get some lick’s like this in.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: TheElf

If it makes you all feel any better, here are some things I have seen in testing.

This is Combat at PH Dec 7 1941. Radar is up. The Zekes are on escort for the KB raid at 15k’. P-40s are CAP’ing at 23k’. My explanation of the routine FOLLOWS the boxed data.

Start air-air flight round

Attacker Flight of 2 P-40B Warhawk planes from 18th PG/78th PS

Defender Flight of 3 A6M2-21 Zero planes from EII-1 Daitai With higher Detection level

Two opposing flights are defined

The P-40Bs detect the Zero Escort.

...Attacking P-40B with skill (60) attempts to engage the Zekes

Zero 1 tries to evade attack…succeeds

Zero 2 tries to evade attack…succeeds

Zero 3 tries to evade attack…fails
....Pilot Skill:92

Pilots jockey for position. Each Zero checks against the attack of the P-40B and a target, Zero 3, is selected


......planes engage in combat

P-40B Warhawk Alt:23000 (attacker)*
Zero 3 Alt:15000 (defender)
Several calculations are made…sorry edited for content

The P-40 Starts at 23k where it MVRs with an 11. But it enjoys an 8k' Altitude advantage so MVR is increased to 19. A 10 MPH speed advantage (not shown above) isn't enough to reduce the Zeroes MVR, so the Zeke remains at its natural 15k' MVR 33. The Zero pilot is a Veteran at 91 EXP. What you cannot see is how end EXP favors the Japanese pilot due to the MVR differential. EXP is heavily modified in the final tally when MOR, FAT, DISR, MVR etc are considered. This makes what would essentially be a slam dunk for the P-40B more of a fight. The higher natural MVR of the Zeke helps offset the modified MVR of the P-40 From an Altitude advantage

so...the Zeke fires first but is climbing up hill and is defending for all intents and purposes. Defending in this sense means that he is positionally disadvantaged. IT doesn’t mean he cannot fire. His EXP, detection of the impending attack, and A/C performance advantage (MVR) have mitigated the what could have been a one way encounter and he has an opportunity to salvage the situation.

Zero 3 fires his 7.7mm Type 89 MG at P-40B Warhawk,
Zero 3 fires his 20mm Type 99 Cannon at P-40B Warhawk

6 points of damage are done to the Diving P-40B

...The Veteran Zeke pilot turns and climbs into the Diving attack of the P-40 and fires first!!! A hit! But it isn't enough...the roll didn’t go his way.

P-40B Warhawk fires 4 x .30 Browning MG at Zero 3 for 16 points of Damage
P-40B Warhawk fires 2 x .50 Browning MG at Zero 3 for 12 points of damage
Zero 3 of defending flight has been killed

End plane-plane round

The moderately Experienced (60) P-40B Pilot has the position, speed, and firepower to decide the contest in one pass...This is the first of many China war veterans (91) to fall to American guns...

This literally was the first kill on Dec 7 1941 in a turn I ran. I forget what happened after this specifically, but typically the weight of numbers will end up being in favor of the Japanese on turn one and especially over PH. That isn’t to say that depending on the rolls the allies won’t get some lick’s like this in.

Very nice - thanks a lot!!! [&o]


BTW, I have few questions regarding your great narative above:

#1
Would there be a dice roll (or some other method) that enables, for example I will use your narative from above, that attacked aircraft tries not to engage but to evade primarily (i.e. the Zero instead of turning in and trying to attack diving P-40 to use defensive maneouver and simply make attacking and diving P-40 miss)?

#2
The Zero in your example did manage to damage the diving attacking P-40 first - was that damage on P-40 used in some calculation to lower the presicion and/or maneuverability and/or pilot concentration for P-40 attack that come later?



Also, are all this nice manuver and speed calculations used in other axspects of the game engine (like FLAK avoidance for example - VERY IMPOSRTANT ISSUE) or just in air-to-air combat?


Thanks in advance and keep up with great work - we are all very grateful for your time and effort guys! [&o][&o][&o]


Leo "Apollo11"

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I personally think the altitude settings are have always been a steaming pile of poo.  As a commander weilding more responsability than Nimitz, MacArthur, Sommerville or even Chiang-Kai-Shek - I shouldn't be tasked with setting my squadrons at 1000' increments or even Low-Med-High.  But since that's NOT the case, I'll throw in my lot with the others in hoping that the intercept algorithm has improved to where my aircraft will not suicide themselves against every high-level mission.

-F-

This statement assumes that when combat is joined your fighters always have a choice whether to stay and play or not. That was rarely the case, more so for the Allies in the early war, more so for the Japanese in the late war.

Power projection by Air was intent upon forcing the other side to battle under the most egregious circumstances. That said there is one way to avoid combat if you choose to. Vacate the Hex in question and your enemy will have to leave you alone. Just be careful, because despite what the right honorable Gentleman from the Steakhouse says, if you play the Brave Sir Robin in the early years as the Allies, your job of attriting the IJ Air forces will be that much tougher.

Unfortunately the Air Routine is not so complex as to be capable of extending the least advantaged side the courtesy of a “do over” or a “training timeout”. Nor are the 1s and 0s that are in command of your Air Units so smart as to realize it isn’t beneficial to climb into a swarm of Zekes with their Iron Dogs.

It is what it is. There are always going to be limits to what is possible. And remember this is a game. You can dress it up all you want, but even the strictest simulation is still meant be fun, and to be a game.

If it makes you all feel any better, here are some things I have seen in testing.

This is Combat at PH Dec 7 1941. Radar is up. The Zekes are on escort for the KB raid at 15k’. P-40s are CAP’ing at 23k’. My explanation of the routine FOLLOWS the boxed data.

Start air-air flight round

Attacker Flight of 2 P-40B Warhawk planes from 18th PG/78th PS

Defender Flight of 3 A6M2-21 Zero planes from EII-1 Daitai With higher Detection level

Two opposing flights are defined

The P-40Bs detect the Zero Escort.

...Attacking P-40B with skill (60) attempts to engage the Zekes

Zero 1 tries to evade attack…succeeds

Zero 2 tries to evade attack…succeeds

Zero 3 tries to evade attack…fails
....Pilot Skill:92

Pilots jockey for position. Each Zero checks against the attack of the P-40B and a target, Zero 3, is selected


......planes engage in combat

P-40B Warhawk Alt:23000 (attacker)*
Zero 3 Alt:15000 (defender)
Several calculations are made…sorry edited for content

The P-40 Starts at 23k where it MVRs with an 11. But it enjoys an 8k' Altitude advantage so MVR is increased to 19. A 10 MPH speed advantage (not shown above) isn't enough to reduce the Zeroes MVR, so the Zeke remains at its natural 15k' MVR 33. The Zero pilot is a Veteran at 91 EXP. What you cannot see is how end EXP favors the Japanese pilot due to the MVR differential. EXP is heavily modified in the final tally when MOR, FAT, DISR, MVR etc are considered. This makes what would essentially be a slam dunk for the P-40B more of a fight. The higher natural MVR of the Zeke helps offset the modified MVR of the P-40 From an Altitude advantage

so...the Zeke fires first but is climbing up hill and is defending for all intents and purposes. Defending in this sense means that he is positionally disadvantaged. IT doesn’t mean he cannot fire. His EXP, detection of the impending attack, and A/C performance advantage (MVR) have mitigated the what could have been a one way encounter and he has an opportunity to salvage the situation.

Zero 3 fires his 7.7mm Type 89 MG at P-40B Warhawk,
Zero 3 fires his 20mm Type 99 Cannon at P-40B Warhawk

6 points of damage are done to the Diving P-40B

...The Veteran Zeke pilot turns and climbs into the Diving attack of the P-40 and fires first!!! A hit! But it isn't enough...the roll didn’t go his way.

P-40B Warhawk fires 4 x .30 Browning MG at Zero 3 for 16 points of Damage
P-40B Warhawk fires 2 x .50 Browning MG at Zero 3 for 12 points of damage
Zero 3 of defending flight has been killed

End plane-plane round

The moderately Experienced (60) P-40B Pilot has the position, speed, and firepower to decide the contest in one pass...This is the first of many China war veterans (91) to fall to American guns...

This literally was the first kill on Dec 7 1941 in a turn I ran. I forget what happened after this specifically, but typically the weight of numbers will end up being in favor of the Japanese on turn one and especially over PH. That isn’t to say that depending on the rolls the allies won’t get some lick’s like this in.

Historical correctness AND more than we might have hoped for in a game simulation!

[castor troy]

This is awesome! [&o]

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

#1
Would there be a dice roll (or some other method) that enables, for example I will use your narative from above, that attacked aircraft tries not to engage but to evade primarily (i.e. the Zero instead of turning in and trying to attack diving P-40 to use defensive maneouver and simply make attacking and diving P-40 miss)?

Yes. It happens all the time. In the example above the first two Zekes managed it. It just isn't displayed in the replay. Actually you may see an evasion message from time to time.

#2
The Zero in your example did manage to damage the diving attacking P-40 first - was that damage on P-40 used in some calculation to lower the presicion and/or maneuverability and/or pilot concentration for P-40 attack that come later?

Damage does impact FAT and MOR, however what you are suggesting is a bit in the weeds. Think of this as a head to head engagement where one guy just had things going for him and the other didn't.

Also, are all this nice manuver and speed calculations used in other axspects of the game engine (like FLAK avoidance for example - VERY IMPOSRTANT ISSUE) or just in air-to-air combat?

No.

Thanks in advance and keep up with great work - we are all very grateful for your time and effort guys! [&o][&o][&o]

No problem

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: TheElf

No problem

Thanks for info (and please do post similar things like this in future when you can [&o])! [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[FeurerKrieg]

Hi Elf -

Thanks for that post, it is a thing of beauty. I can't wait for AE!!!

[mdiehl]

The higher natural MVR of the Zeke helps offset the modified MVR of the P-40 From an Altitude advantage

Will AE change the maneuverabilities of a.c. based on something like their current airspeeds? That P-40 in your example diving from a substantial height advantage would certainly be much more maneuverable than any Zeke that tried to keep up with the P-40, should the P-40 do a shoot and scoot. This has implications for "follow up combat rounds" after the initial engagement.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That P-40 in your example diving from a substantial height advantage would certainly be much more maneuverable than any Zeke that tried to keep up with the P-40, should the P-40 do a shoot and scoot. This has implications for "follow up combat rounds" after the initial engagement.

Diving aircraft only have more energy because they can "convert" their speed build from dive - the maneuverability is something completely different... [;)]

BTW, "boom and zoom" (diving from above at high speed) tactics is very very efficient and was used with great success in all air forces in WWII that had appropriate aircraft that were able to utilize that properly - but if attacked aircraft is aware of danger and more maneuverable the "boom and zoom" is ineffective (i.e. the attacked and alarmed target aircraft can use it's maneuverability to quite easily outmaneuver fast but not very maneuverable diving attacker)!


Leo "Apollo11"

[mdiehl]

Diving aircraft only have more energy because they can "convert" their speed build from dive - the maneuverability is something completely different...

This isn;t about diving energy. It's about maneuverability. At speeds in excess of 330 mph the P-40 could turn inside a Zero, could make a 180 degree arc faster than a Zero, and could (at airspeeds above 280) outroll a Zero. The Zero was not under all circumstances always the more maneuverable airplane. At IAS above 370 mph, the Zero flew like a brick. A zero diving at 370 trying to tag a PBY lumbering along at 200 would have a difficult time maneuvering with the PBY if the Catalina driver decided to try to roll out of the line of fire.

but if attacked aircraft is aware of danger and more maneuverable the "boom and zoom" is ineffective

That is incorrect. See above. Boom and zoom is not the same thing as "getting the bounce." At high speed, a P-40 could overtake or, if-necessary, outrun a zero in level flight, and at IAS above 330 mph the P-40 could out-turn a Zero. It could, at any tactical speed, out roll a zero.

At high speed, even an F4F could turn with a Zero. Many veteran Japanese pilots died over Guadalcanal because they incorrectly assumed that a following F4F could never stay with them long enough in maneuvers to inflict a lethal dose. They were wrong. These deaths had nothing to do with "surprise" or "out of the sun" or even "boom and zoom." It had to do with the fact that the Zero was increasingly sluggish with increasing airspeeds. Allied a.c. did not have that problem in general.

(i.e. the attacked and alarmed target aircraft can use it's maneuverability to quite easily outmaneuver fast but not very maneuverable diving attacker)!

That is not "universally" accurate. At high airspeeds, the Zeke could not outmaneuver allied a.c. regardless of whether or not the Japanese pilot was aware that he was being attacked.