Servere Issues - Aircraft Preformance?

[Japan]

I wounder if AE will provide a plattform for more realistic Air Preformance?
The one we have today, is extreamnly unrealistic.



I will here try to describe what im referting to.


An Aeroplanes preformance is a very complicated thing, it will preforme as best on a specific altitude, or on a small range of altitudes. This is caused by the Aeroplanes abilety to create Drag and Lift. The Engine of the Aeroplane also has a huge inpact on the aeroplanes preformance.

An Aeroplane who is operating wery good at altitudes between 0ft - FL100 will never be able to preform well on the altitude range from for example FL220-FL300. This is because the plattform who cause the aircraft to preform well in the lower altitude would have the compleate oposite effect in higher altitudes.

Another thing we need to take into consideration is the Preformance of the Engine.
A Aircraft Engine (both Prop and Jet) will preforme different on a Higher Altitude the on the lower altitude.

The Engine is made to be feed XX Amount of Air Mass in a specific Ratio to Fuel Amount.
However, at low level in a envirement with a high OAT, the amount of Oxygen Molecules pr cm3 of Air Mass is very different then on the same altitude with lower OAT. This is because Colder Air has pr cm3 far more Oxygen Molecules then worm air. An Example to this is some of the Turbo Systems on Cars, who simply inject Compressed Coald Air into the Engine, and as the Colder Air has more Oxygen Molecules pr Cm3 you will get a Bigger Bang in the engine = bigger engine effect. Now some Allied planes and most German Planes had Superchargers, this was a "Shift" were you could set Engine Setting1 or Engine Setting2 Depending on your Altitude. Today we in Props adjust this with Mixture Controlls.

As A Pilot, Things like Runway Take Off Length, Vertical Speed (climb rate) ect will be effected by the Current Outside Air Temperature, and the aeroplanes current altitude.
So, if we land on a Runway with high Elevation, like a Runway located in 7000 ft ASL, vs a Runway located in 1000 ft Elevation ASL (above sea level), there will be a difference in IAS.

Now this is because the Higher up you get wirth a aeroplane, the thinner the Air will be, and Thinner Air Generates less Lift pr degree of elevator compared to at lower altitude, Thinner air also provides less Oxygen Molecules pr cm3 then Thicker Air.
With other words, manuvering a aeroplane in higher altitude is far more complicated then to manuver it in lower altitude.

In the real world WW2, thay designed specific aeroplanes good to fight in High Altitude, and Specific Aeroplanes good for fighting in Medium and low Altitiude.


Initialy I thought that the game was calculating this, so i Buildt the Tonys to Provide Low-Medium Level Bomber Escort, and the Tojo to act High Altitude Fighter and Bomber Intercepter, and the A6M2 as a High Level Fighter, and the A6M3 as a Medium-Low Level Fighter. But then... i Found in a experiment, that my Tonys who would be able to Destroy ANY Allied Plane in Real world in Altitudes below FL130 was owned by P51D, who is a Aeroplane with very Poor Capebiletys below FL100, and was medioker arround between FL100-FL200, but was above FL220 a plane with Extreamly Good Capebiletys Above FL220.



So, my conclution was...


The Game does not consider the Basik Factors in a Air Duel, the actual Preformance pr Plane pr Altitude.

The Basik Rule here is, if i know the Enamy have P51D in Defence, Then I want to do all my action in low altitude as P51D isa High Altitude Fighter.. However, the Game is not this complicated, and does not include this very basiks of Aviation

[:(][:(][:(]



Please tell me that AE has all this fixed, and will simulate Aircrafts Preformance like in real wold ??? [&:]







[&o]

[JeffroK]

I think you will be disappointed, after all its using the base WITP engine.
 
A game purely covering air combat might have this detail, but WITP & AE is trying to cover Air, Land, Sea, Under Sea & Logistics and will do everything "average" rather than 1 or 2 sections brilliantly.
 
 

[bradfordkay]

It is my understanding that in AE, altitude will be taken into account. It's still WITP, so it's still the basic maneuver numbers - but they vary by altitude according to the data on each aircraft.

[JeffroK]

It is my understanding that in AE, altitude will be taken into account. It's still WITP, so it's still the basic maneuver numbers - but they vary by altitude according to the data on each aircraft.
 
This would be excellent, and provide more grist for "conversation"

[m10bob]

Since the aircrews will be able to develop skill levels on different kinds of missions, the air war simulation should be vastly more realistic.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

The WitP-AE guys told us that they will implement different sets of performance data for all aircraft depending of altitude (I think they mentioned several sets: LOW / MEDIUM / HIGH)!

So... the aircraft performance data in game engine would be enhanced from what it is now! [&o][&o][&o]

Thsi was something I and many others asked long long long time ago (I think 5+ years ago in the time of UV)... [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[wdolson]

The air combat model was redesigned by TheElf, who is a US Navy F/A-18 pilot on active duty.  From what I understand (I am a late comer to the project), the engine and scale of the game wouldn't accomodate every change desired, but a lot of them were incorporated.  The air to air model should be better than the original game.

As an air geek, I think all the changes to the aircraft stuff is pretty cool, though I haven't worked on the air code.  I have worked in just about every other area of the program though.  I'm sort of the utility infielder of the programming team.  (There are some cool changes to the land unit stuff too BTW.)

Bill

[HansBolter]

Could it be that the reason the P51s owned the Tony's was due to pilot experience and not the raw performance cabilities of the aircraft?

Arriving at the conclusion that the model is flawed via a comparison of the raw performance capabilities of the aircraft without taking pilot experience into consideration seems to me to be a flawed analysis.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

The WitP-AE guys told us that they will implement different sets of performance data for all aircraft depending of altitude (I think they mentioned several sets: LOW / MEDIUM / HIGH)!

IIRC there are actually five different altitude bands modelled, for each aircraft. THE ELF has the details but MVR is calculated based upon Power to Weight ratios and sevral other factors...It is probably discussed in the air thread above.

So... the aircraft performance data in game engine would be enhanced from what it is now! [&o][&o][&o]

Completely revamped.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Could it be that the reason the P51s owned the Tony's was due to pilot experience and not the raw performance cabilities of the aircraft?

Arriving at the conclusion that the model is flawed via a comparison of the raw performance capabilities of the aircraft without taking pilot experience into consideration seems to me to be a flawed analysis.

Pilot experience did play a big role. Chuck Yeager's opinion was that aircraft performance was only 10% of the equation and pilot skill and experience 90%. I think he was exagerrating some, but history shows that expert pilots in obsolete aircraft were able to hold their own or best inexperienced pilots in more modern aircraft.

The Finnish Air Force is one example. Until they got Me-109s, most of their fighters were way behind the curve compared to the Russians they were facing, but they bested the Russians quite often. If they were the only nation to fly the Brewster Buffalo, it would have a much better reputation today.

I think aircraft maintenance, reliability, and doctrine also play a role. The P-40 was able to compete well with Japanese fighters when they learned how to dictate the terms of combat. Allied aircraft often had better maintenance later in the war and the aircraft the Allies were fielding from the mid-war on were mostly tested designs which were reliable under field conditions. The B-26 was withdrawn from the Pacific because it didn't do well in the environment. The B-25 was a much better medium bomber for poor field conditions.

The B-29 was a maintenance nightmare, but the 20th AF had a massive support system to keep them flying.

The Tony had a lot of maintenance problems due ot the engine. When the engines were replaced with a radial in the Ki-100, they became a much better fighter. By the time the Ki-100 became available, most of the trained pilots were dead and ill trained pilots with only a few hours airborne were no match for even green Allied pilots who had hundreds of hour in the air before they even got into the cockpit of a combat aircraft.

Hellcats ran up huge scores in the last two years of the war because they were a well trained force which had worked out an effective set of doctrines against a lot of pilots who could barely get the wheels up.

That said, the stock performance model did need work.

Bill

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Japan

I wounder if AE will provide a plattform for more realistic Air Preformance?
The one we have today, is extreamnly unrealistic.



I will here try to describe what im referting to.


An Aeroplanes preformance is a very complicated thing, it will preforme as best on a specific altitude, or on a small range of altitudes. This is caused by the Aeroplanes abilety to create Drag and Lift. The Engine of the Aeroplane also has a huge inpact on the aeroplanes preformance.

An Aeroplane who is operating wery good at altitudes between 0ft - FL100 will never be able to preform well on the altitude range from for example FL220-FL300. This is because the plattform who cause the aircraft to preform well in the lower altitude would have the compleate oposite effect in higher altitudes.

Another thing we need to take into consideration is the Preformance of the Engine.
A Aircraft Engine (both Prop and Jet) will preforme different on a Higher Altitude the on the lower altitude.

The Engine is made to be feed XX Amount of Air Mass in a specific Ratio to Fuel Amount.
However, at low level in a envirement with a high OAT, the amount of Oxygen Molecules pr cm3 of Air Mass is very different then on the same altitude with lower OAT. This is because Colder Air has pr cm3 far more Oxygen Molecules then worm air. An Example to this is some of the Turbo Systems on Cars, who simply inject Compressed Coald Air into the Engine, and as the Colder Air has more Oxygen Molecules pr Cm3 you will get a Bigger Bang in the engine = bigger engine effect. Now some Allied planes and most German Planes had Superchargers, this was a "Shift" were you could set Engine Setting1 or Engine Setting2 Depending on your Altitude. Today we in Props adjust this with Mixture Controlls.

As A Pilot, Things like Runway Take Off Length, Vertical Speed (climb rate) ect will be effected by the Current Outside Air Temperature, and the aeroplanes current altitude.
So, if we land on a Runway with high Elevation, like a Runway located in 7000 ft ASL, vs a Runway located in 1000 ft Elevation ASL (above sea level), there will be a difference in IAS.

Now this is because the Higher up you get wirth a aeroplane, the thinner the Air will be, and Thinner Air Generates less Lift pr degree of elevator compared to at lower altitude, Thinner air also provides less Oxygen Molecules pr cm3 then Thicker Air.
With other words, manuvering a aeroplane in higher altitude is far more complicated then to manuver it in lower altitude.

In the real world WW2, thay designed specific aeroplanes good to fight in High Altitude, and Specific Aeroplanes good for fighting in Medium and low Altitiude.


Initialy I thought that the game was calculating this, so i Buildt the Tonys to Provide Low-Medium Level Bomber Escort, and the Tojo to act High Altitude Fighter and Bomber Intercepter, and the A6M2 as a High Level Fighter, and the A6M3 as a Medium-Low Level Fighter. But then... i Found in a experiment, that my Tonys who would be able to Destroy ANY Allied Plane in Real world in Altitudes below FL130 was owned by P51D, who is a Aeroplane with very Poor Capebiletys below FL100, and was medioker arround between FL100-FL200, but was above FL220 a plane with Extreamly Good Capebiletys Above FL220.



So, my conclution was...


The Game does not consider the Basik Factors in a Air Duel, the actual Preformance pr Plane pr Altitude.

The Basik Rule here is, if i know the Enamy have P51D in Defence, Then I want to do all my action in low altitude as P51D isa High Altitude Fighter.. However, the Game is not this complicated, and does not include this very basiks of Aviation

[:(][:(][:(]



Please tell me that AE has all this fixed, and will simulate Aircrafts Preformance like in real wold ??? [&:]







[&o]

Japan,
The altitude you are talking about is the Critical Altitude. In reality there is a critical altitude for the Engine, and a Critical Altitude for the Aerodynamic properties of the Aircraft. When these to Altitudes are close together you get a great performance from the A/C.

In AE the critical altitude is modelled as the altitude where MVR begins to decline. Previous posters are correct in the sense that the are Multiple bands where MVR is measured during Air Combat. Here are some examples:

The bands...
Low 0-10/Med 10-15/M.High 15-20 / High 20-30 / V. High 30k' +

P-39D
---19--------------19---------------14-----------------11-------------------8

A6M2-21
---33--------------33---------------27-----------------21-------------------10

From this you can see that the P-39 begins to suffer above 15k'. It's critical altitude falling at 15k.

Likewise the A6M2 retains it's performance up to 15k' but carries a significant maneuverability advantage overall so the decline is more severe over the range of altitude bands. When these two A/C meet it will be most advantageous to the P-39 if it is at <15k'. This is how we eliminated the Zero bonus and P-39 Penalty.

Some other examples:

N1K2-J
---30--------------30---------------30-----------------25-------------------20

P-47D-25 Thunderbolt, Republic
---15--------------15---------------15-----------------15-------------------15

Supermarine Spitfire Mk VIII
---33--------------33---------------33-----------------27-------------------21

[castor troy]

will those figures be shown ingame in the aircraft stats or is it something the players have to guess or look up in the editor?

thx

[Panther Bait]

I'm curious how the altitude bands work when the attacker and defender are set to different altitudes.&nbsp; Will a fighter move out of its favored altitude to engage an enemy at a different altitude.&nbsp; An example:
&nbsp;
- P-39D's are set to provide CAP at an altitude in the medium band, say 12,000 feet.
- Some A6M2s are set to escort a bombing raid on the same base.&nbsp; A6M2s are set at 23,000 feet, bombers are set to 21,000 feet. (pretty high for current games but maybe this changes now, particularly assuming that bombers have multiple altitude MVR ratings as well).
&nbsp;
What happens now?&nbsp; Do the P-39's attempt to climb to 18,000 to engage the bombers and get swooped down on by the Zeros?&nbsp; Do the zeros dive to engage the CAP and possibly engage 15,000 feet or lower where they don't have as much&nbsp;advantage?&nbsp; I would hope that they would stay with the bombers and slaughter any CAP that actually makes it up to thier altitude.
&nbsp;
How about Sweep missions?&nbsp; Here it is a little different since there is nothing really forcing the CAP to engage.&nbsp; They can loiter at 12,000 and dare the Zeros to come down and meet them where they have some hope to survive.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

I'm curious how the altitude bands work when the attacker and defender are set to different altitudes. Will a fighter move out of its favored altitude to engage an enemy at a different altitude. An example:

- P-39D's are set to provide CAP at an altitude in the medium band, say 12,000 feet.
- Some A6M2s are set to escort a bombing raid on the same base. A6M2s are set at 23,000 feet, bombers are set to 21,000 feet. (pretty high for current games but maybe this changes now, particularly assuming that bombers have multiple altitude MVR ratings as well).

What happens now? Do the P-39's attempt to climb to 18,000 to engage the bombers and get swooped down on by the Zeros? Do the zeros dive to engage the CAP and possibly engage 15,000 feet or lower where they don't have as much advantage? I would hope that they would stay with the bombers and slaughter any CAP that actually makes it up to thier altitude.

How about Sweep missions? Here it is a little different since there is nothing really forcing the CAP to engage. They can loiter at 12,000 and dare the Zeros to come down and meet them where they have some hope to survive.

[:)]

[Japan]

In my 4 Experiments the P51D Group had 67 in Experience and the Tony Group 86 in Experience. Both had Ecual Leaders.



Also im not mantioning the Maximum Cieling,  only the Preformance pr Altitude. (Preformance Chart for P51D shows it as pritty poor on the lower altetudes, I checked this on a Local WW2 Air Museum, who has no planes or evan info of such from the pacific war, but alot of info about P51D and German Planes.) 



The Data thay have is based on German Inteligence, as well as on Official Documents from US Airforce,  it shows the QRH (Qucik Referance Handbook) of the Plane, and also there lists the Preformance in different Temperatures and Altitudes, with the different Load Outs and Configurations, And it is pritty Obvies that the plane was a High Altitude Fighter, with very Poor or Poor Capebilety in lower Altitudes, especialy if it is operating in hot temperatures and in lower altitudes on same time.


My whole point here is, will this be simulated better pr altitude in AE??





[:)]

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

I'm curious how the altitude bands work when the attacker and defender are set to different altitudes. Will a fighter move out of its favored altitude to engage an enemy at a different altitude. An example:

- P-39D's are set to provide CAP at an altitude in the medium band, say 12,000 feet.
- Some A6M2s are set to escort a bombing raid on the same base. A6M2s are set at 23,000 feet, bombers are set to 21,000 feet. (pretty high for current games but maybe this changes now, particularly assuming that bombers have multiple altitude MVR ratings as well).

What happens now? Do the P-39's attempt to climb to 18,000 to engage the bombers and get swooped down on by the Zeros? Do the zeros dive to engage the CAP and possibly engage 15,000 feet or lower where they don't have as much advantage? I would hope that they would stay with the bombers and slaughter any CAP that actually makes it up to thier altitude.

How about Sweep missions? Here it is a little different since there is nothing really forcing the CAP to engage. They can loiter at 12,000 and dare the Zeros to come down and meet them where they have some hope to survive.

I would THINK that sweeps will go to the defending CAP level, since the goal of sweep mission is to engage enemy fighters.

I would also THINK that escorts will stay at Bomber level, and that defending CAP will go to bomber level since escorts are very happy if defending CAP doesn't engage - all the bombers get to target with no problem!

So I think it should be mission driven.

Of course, I'm not on the dev team so these are just my opinions - possible way off from what the team plans.

[FeurerKrieg]

P-39D
---19--------------19---------------14-----------------11-------------------8

A6M2-21
---33--------------33---------------27-----------------21-------------------10

From this you can see that the P-39 begins to suffer above 15k'. It's critical altitude falling at 15k.

Likewise the A6M2 retains it's performance up to 15k' but carries a significant maneuverability advantage overall so the decline is more severe over the range of altitude bands. When these two A/C meet it will be most advantageous to the P-39 if it is at <15k'. This is how we eliminated the Zero bonus and P-39 Penalty.

Hi - quick question - but based on the above, isn't the ideal altitude for the P-39 above 30,000? Since at very high altitude the delta between MVR ratings is only 2, whereas at <15K, the delta is 14.

I guess, what is better - higher MVR period, or maximizing(if you are better)/minimizing (if you are worse) the MVR delta between you and your enemy?

[Dili]

Yes that is my question too. P-39 have less disavantage at +30K where both planes are almost equally bad. An being equally bad i would say there is much less chance of a combat. I also think that overmatch performance in air combat increases the odds of having a combat( of course depends on mission, a fighter tied to escorting have to fight).

[mdiehl]

This is largely an irrelevent issue. Sure, one can try to jigger the MVR by altitude but then one would also have to jigger it by airspeed. For all it's flaws, the Iron Dog was hell's bell's at low altitude and at speeds in excess of 280 mph it could out-roll, out-turn, out-climb, out-dive and out-run (or overake any destroy) any A6M or Ki-43 pilot in the universe.

I'd like to see AE eliminate the "Zero bonus" entirely and bump all Allied exp levels 20 points across the board. As it stands, it already vastly exaggerates the quality of Japanese aviation.

[Panther Bait]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'd like to see AE eliminate the "Zero bonus" entirely and bump all Allied exp levels 20 points across the board. As it stands, it already vastly exaggerates the quality of Japanese aviation.

I think TheElf implied in his post up above that the "zero bonus" was gone, at least as an artificial boost to the Zero's performance. Now, the question for the Allied commanders is probably more similar to the one they faced in real life. Do I (a) restrict my aircraft to the altitudes where my planes have a better chance to engage successfully and abandon the higher altitudes to the enemy, or (b) do I let them tangle with Zeroes at the higher altitudes and suffer the resultant additional losses?

Admittedly it may not solve any bias in the WITP air-to-air model towards low-speed dogfighting versus high-speed boom-and-zoom tactics, but it is better than what it is in stock.