That's it for me.....

[Sardaukar]

And loss of one CV is catastrophic to Allies in what way? Plenty of those coming in later. 

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And loss of one CV is catastrophic to Allies in what way? Plenty of those coming in later. 

Sardaukar don´t you see? Its not the fact that the CV is lost but the sub ignoring all those
juicy DD´s in favor of a lucky shot. TIS IS BROKAAHHHNNN...

Maybe the strange bug in PBEM where you are suddently unable to reload the turn, modify and run again? [8|]


Just kidding Reverberate.
I can assure you that most here have experienced at least as brutal setbacks without being able to
blame anything but bad luck and accepted that this is war...
If you don´t like this then this is not your game. Sad though, because its part of the suspense.

[Barb]

Maybe the allied player should avoid areas where there are many subs, or that are natural torpedo-junctions... Also staying on the same place for few days could give enemy chance to concentrate subs in the area. I wonder if this wasnt the case...

In guadalcanal scenario against AI, I had sunk all 4 allied CVs just by subs ... They were sitting for almost a month on the same hex with all Japs subs hunting them.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Altaris

I'm not going to say the results are anywhere near feasible, but I am finding in my games that if you stick at least 8 DDs in a TF, it pretty much nullifies sub attacks. Anything less than that runs this danger. Not sure why 8 seems to be the magic number, but I've yet to have any successful sub attacks against any TF with this many DDs in it.

So I just use that as a rule of thumb, for important TFs, I always go with at least 8 DDs.

no, I had 18 DDs covering my CVs (10 in the TF and 2x4 in following ASW TFs) and IJN subs keep happily attacking and easily hitting my CVs (twice already). The subs are also more a threat to DDs than the other way around. You´re doing good if you get a 1:1 vs the subs, it´s even worse for the Japanese if you only would count hits but the MK-14 hits usually don´t ignite, that´s the only reason why my USN subs (in mid 42) haven´t got a 3:1 kill rate against IJN DDs.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: ETF

Kinda a massive setback no? Seems this is happening in more than one or two games. Is this more an uncommon event rather than an exception to the rule?

this is a very uncommon event IMO, have never seen such damage done in WITP or AE. What really makes me wonder how all those subs managed to be in the same hex with the CV TF, nearly looks like the pre patch mega sub reactions with subs hunting down TFs right from Hawai to the West Coast. Haven´t seen this again since you can only set your subs to react 1 hex.

[Misconduct]

So I posted a thread few days ago about how amazing Subs were before the patch, needless to say that was my side not the Japanese AI. Well since I patched and continued my campaign, what seems to going on now is none of my submarines are hitting ASW Ships, while Japanese on the other hand are having a field day, single hitting every destroyer I had with a carrier group before making it to Australia. Is it possible that since I patched and continued the campaign I somehow messed up my game? I notice others are having hell with the Subs, and I don't complain except when it seems everytime my subs fire at a japanese destroyer they miss, while japanese sub is scoring nice 1-4 hits on a destroyer.

Only other thing I would say I do believe we need perhaps 6 ships in an ASW group, 4 might work for the allies later in the war, but right now im seeing some interesting numbers with entire groups of 4 ships getting attacked and sunk by a single submarine.

Granted my commanders and exp arn't any good, but I didn't see japanese subs being that good either.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

So I posted a thread few days ago about how amazing Subs were before the patch, needless to say that was my side not the Japanese AI. Well since I patched and continued my campaign, what seems to going on now is none of my submarines are hitting ASW Ships, while Japanese on the other hand are having a field day, single hitting every destroyer I had with a carrier group before making it to Australia. Is it possible that since I patched and continued the campaign I somehow messed up my game? I notice others are having hell with the Subs, and I don't complain except when it seems everytime my subs fire at a japanese destroyer they miss, while japanese sub is scoring nice 1-4 hits on a destroyer.

Only other thing I would say I do believe we need perhaps 6 ships in an ASW group, 4 might work for the allies later in the war, but right now im seeing some interesting numbers with entire groups of 4 ships getting attacked and sunk by a single submarine.

Granted my commanders and exp arn't any good, but I didn't see japanese subs being that good either.

I´m doing sub attack statistics in my game against Rainer79 and in 5 months Jan - Jun the USN fleet subs equipped with MK-14 torps have got a 94% !!!! hit rate. And there were a lot of attacks. Of course being Mk-14 they don´t explode 4 out of 5 times. Still, usually the Mk-14 salvoes hit their target, they´re like homing. And there´s no difference if the target is a DD, AK or PB it seems. Usually an attack means a hit, only the dud rate saves the IJN. The statistics can bee seen in my AAR every 25th of the month (game time). Hit rate of Mk-10, Dutch or British subs has been awful, after four months, Dutch hit rate was somewhere around only 40%... using the last offical patch, not the beta patch

[Brady]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Saratoga attack is similar.

TROM's:


9 January 1942: Operation "H" - The Invasion of the Celebes, NEI:
Vice Admiral Takahashi's forces invade Menado and Kema (11 January), Kendari (24 January), Ambon (30 January) and Makassar (9 February).

That same day, 270 miles from Johnston Island, the I-18 of the Special Attack Force sights a LEXINGTON-class carrier, a heavy cruiser and two destroyers steaming westward. I-18 reports the sighting to Headquarters, Sixth Fleet. Rear Admiral Yamazaki orders all available I-boats in the area to form a picket line.

I-6 departs her patrol area to join the hunt for USS LEXINGTON (CV-2), detected by I-18. After I-1 develops a diesel trouble, I-6 replaces her in the picket line NE of Johnston Island.

12 January 1942:
Departs her patrol sector for Kwajalein.

22 January 1942:
Arrives at Kwajalein.

11 January 1942:
At 1841, while patrolling 270 miles NE of Johnston Island, I-6 sights a destroyer and crash-dives. Soon thereafter, a LEXINGTON-class carrier, one heavy cruiser and another destroyer appear on a southeasterly course at 19N, 165W. The carrier is USS SARATOGA (CV-3) of TF 14 under Rear Admiral Herbert F. Leary, steaming at 15 knots to rendezvous with USS ENTERPRISE (CV-6).

LtCdr Inaba fires three Type 89 torpedoes with three-second intervals from 4,700 yards. At 1915, one torpedo hits SARATOGA port amidships, flooding three of her boiler rooms and killing six firemen. The carrier heels first to starboard, then to port, taking on 1,100 tons of water and losing headway. Seven minutes after the hit the escorting destroyers commence a counterattack, but fail to locate the submarine. After 2200, LtCdr Inaba reports two hits on USS LEXINGTON, claiming her as sunk and returns to Kwajalein.

SARATOGA is soon able to increase her speed to 16 knots and make it back to Pearl Harbor under her own power. As a result of subsequent repairs she is put out of the war for six months.

[Misconduct]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

So I posted a thread few days ago about how amazing Subs were before the patch, needless to say that was my side not the Japanese AI. Well since I patched and continued my campaign, what seems to going on now is none of my submarines are hitting ASW Ships, while Japanese on the other hand are having a field day, single hitting every destroyer I had with a carrier group before making it to Australia. Is it possible that since I patched and continued the campaign I somehow messed up my game? I notice others are having hell with the Subs, and I don't complain except when it seems everytime my subs fire at a japanese destroyer they miss, while japanese sub is scoring nice 1-4 hits on a destroyer.

Only other thing I would say I do believe we need perhaps 6 ships in an ASW group, 4 might work for the allies later in the war, but right now im seeing some interesting numbers with entire groups of 4 ships getting attacked and sunk by a single submarine.

Granted my commanders and exp arn't any good, but I didn't see japanese subs being that good either.

I´m doing sub attack statistics in my game against Rainer79 and in 5 months Jan - Jun the USN fleet subs equipped with MK-14 torps have got a 94% !!!! hit rate. And there were a lot of attacks. Of course being Mk-14 they don´t explode 4 out of 5 times. Still, usually the Mk-14 salvoes hit their target, they´re like homing. And there´s no difference if the target is a DD, AK or PB it seems. Usually an attack means a hit, only the dud rate saves the IJN. The statistics can bee seen in my AAR every 25th of the month (game time). Hit rate of Mk-10, Dutch or British subs has been awful, after four months, Dutch hit rate was somewhere around only 40%... using the last offical patch, not the beta patch

Yeah I notice it now, the Dutch and British hit rates dropped to zero since the beta patch, I am dreading it since I am running up against battleships and watching entire salvo's miss completely. Mark 14 on the other hand, I started off with good 75% hit rate then it now dropped down below 15%

[whippleofd]

It is to laugh. [:D]

There were so many "close calls" in torpedo alley that could have gone a different way if a lookout was faceing the wrong way.

When the people tank gets hit by the little explosive thingys, bad stuff happens.

Whipple

[moose1999]

LOL. Nice one.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I completely agree, check out this BS that just happened to me. No way this could happen!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 15, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt

3 Attacks in one phase? With 2 ships sunk? Borked!

[koontz]

The Map the day after...

[morganbj]

ORIGINAL: Reverberate

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
[:D]
You lose two CVs and a DD and you think that's somehow not within the realm of possibility?

Not in any game that I intend to play......

Then go find a copy of Chutes and Ladders and knock yourself out.

[rhohltjr]

ORIGINAL: Reverberate
Not in any game that I intend to play......

Before you take off, consider playing with the editor. Perhaps you can nerf
some aspect of the Japanese attacks or enhance the ASW.

Just a thought.[;)]

[spence]

I would be seriously PO'd if this happened to me but with the help of another beer I'd probably get over it. I do however feel that the abilities of IJN subs in the game are way overrated. Their record from WWII includes a few spectacular successes but for such a large force its record is not very good unless one considers the number posthumous promotions awarded to its captains.
The boats were slow to dive, relatively good sonar targets and slow to manuever both on the surface and submerged. A more aggressive approach within range of Allied aircraft should result in heavier losses.

Careful selection of TROMs from Combined Fleet are not really proof of much of anything but here's one Brady should not enjoy:

10 December 1941:
I-6 reports sighting a LEXINGTON-class aircraft carrier and two cruisers heading NE. Vice Admiral Shimizu in KATORI at Kwajalein orders SubRon 1 and other boats to pursue and sink the carrier.

121 miles NE of Cape Halava, Molokai, Hawaiian Islands. After 0600 in the morning, Ens Perry L. Teaff's Douglas SBD-2 "Dauntless" dive-bomber of VS-6 from USS ENTERPRISE (CV-6) attacks I-70 on the surface and scores a near-miss with a 1,000-lb bomb that damages the submarine, preventing her submerging.

In the afternoon, another SBD of VS-6 flown by Lt (jg) Clarence E. Dickinson Jr. sights a surfaced submarine in the same area. Dickinson climbs to 5,000 ft for a diving attack. His plane is sighted from the submarine, which commences a slow turn to starboard, opening fire from her 13-mm machine guns. [3]

The bomb dropped from the "Dauntless" lands right beside the submarine, amidships. Its explosion throws several gunners over board. I-70 stops and starts to settle on the even keel, disappearing underwater about 45 seconds after the explosion at 23-45N, 155-35W.

When Dickinson returns to the scene of the sinking, he sights four IJN sailors flailing in the water. A bubble of oil and foamy water appears on the surface, followed by two more bubbles, containing oil and debris.

I-70 is the first Japanese combatant ship sunk by United States aircraft during World War II and the first fleet submarine lost in the Pacific War.

Sixth Fleet's headquarters tries to contact I-70, even after the other subs of her division return to Kwajalein. The effort is unsuccessful. I-70 is presumed lost with all 93 hands off Hawaii.

15 March 1942:
Removed from the Navy List.

[Misconduct]

Well you know, I can't complain about the Japanese subs being to strong, I sank 2 CV's, a CVL and a CVE, where the Japanese have mainly only taken a toll on my Oilers and destroyers. If that isn't proof the Subs are little overpowered what is, 4 Cv's sunk under 25 days of my campaign.

[crsutton]

You know, I just lost 40 P40Es to a tojo high sweep. It felt like a prison rape [:D] and I voiced my opinion here. It felt good to vent and prevented me from booting my poor dog. Let the guy have his gripe. I know how he feels. We all get a raw deal once in a while and it sucks.

We all get over it. Let him slide.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: spence

I do however feel that the abilities of IJN subs in the game are way overrated. Their record from WWII includes a few spectacular successes but for such a large force its record is not very good unless one considers the number posthumous promotions awarded to its captains.

indeed. In fact, when you look at it....the entire Japanese military managed a few spectacular successes but for such a large force, its record is really not very good.

[:D]

Couldn't resist.....after two new books on the Middle Sea....its interesting seeing even professional authors discount the achievements of military orgs depending on their point of view.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: koontz

The Map the day after...

hey! totally borked move. camping those carriers 1 hex off a target. [:D]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I completely agree, check out this BS that just happened to me. No way this could happen!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 15, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt

3 Attacks in one phase? With 2 ships sunk? Borked!

Hmm, this looks strangely familiar...sort of like it might have really happened during the war. [;)]