New! Return of the Shakturi 1.5.0.4 Public Beta Available!

[ASHBERY76]

Any news of a new beta? Seems very quiet.

[WoodMan]

Yup, any news on a starport fix?

[Caesar_Augustus]

Aye, it should be fixed by now. I don't suppose 1.5.0.5 (or more) is far away.
Good things come to those who (know how to [;)] ) wait...

[Hetulik]

Same here, eagerly awaiting 1.5.0.5

[Igard]

Yes, I'd imagine that only updating the spaceport fix would be a rather negligible patch. Hopefully 1.5.0.5 will have more goodies for us. [:)]

[Data]

not even a month since the last one, I don't think Elliot is an android [:)]
probably he divides himself between several projects....one of which I hope is the new expansion [:D]

[Bingeling]

I have no clue if this is related to this beta, or if it is a long standing issue. My recent AAR with the AI controlling all but the armed forces, makes me think that the following factors help explain missing space ports.

1: The AI does not build when cash flow is negative. This is true for what appears to be all kind of construction, possibly spy recruitment, but it does not stop diplomatic gifts. When cash flow is positive, it builds silly amounts of stuff. As a human I can estimate the military forces needed, and the answer is not always "whatever I can afford". For the subject here, it is relevant that space ports appear to be on the list of things not built when the cash flow is red.

2: War and the following loss of trade hurts the cash flow. Often the AI is always in war.

3: If space ports are good for the economy, this is a circle that reinforces itself.

4: Cash flow is not a true value for economic balance, which makes it less imnportant. The bonus income is a more or less steady flow which can allow a human player (and probably AI too) to accumulate money while being in the red. Introducing some kind of budgeting for this income would improve matters at least a little, but probably not solve the problem.

5: A human player can make rules like "If I got more than 100k, I don't hesitate to build space ports". My AI sits at 1.6 million and don't spend a dime, it got no understanding of having cash on hand. Admittedly, if ships were bought to the extent that the wanted in periods of positive cash flow, there would not be 1.6 million, but it is hard to estimate how much less, the bonus income would still accumulate.

Early in the AAR before the AI found wars to fight, two small space ports were built. After the first war, when cash flow went positive, a medium space port were ordered. During wars, with cash flow slightly negative (but bank balance increasing), nothing at all is ordered.

A related issue is that the AI uses explorers as scouts in war time. This is really a good idea. But scouts die, and dead explorers won't be replaced, because war makes the cash balance negative. An issue with this apart from no more war scouting, is that this stops exploration, which is needed to discover both new strike targets and the colonies of those you want to trade with.

6: I assume not knowing where you free trade partner lives inhibits the trade somewhat. This helps make the cash flow negative. See: the dead explorer issue.

My AI state departments spam territory map swap requests, but not a lot have accepted them. I guess the Atuuk are eager to extend their trade network compared to others.

Btw, I go by my AI which is Atuuk, of which the manual says:

- Quite aggressive. This may explain the war mongering.
- Extremely reckless. This may explain the crazy eagerness to raid outposts.
- Extremely friendly. This may explain why they spam territory map swap requests and have them denied.

The first two are a recipe for war, which helps introduce "no space ports". The last may show that if all were as friendly, people would swap territory maps. It swaps a lot of map with humans which are "quite friendly", and have at one time in early game swapped with Kiadian which are "slightly friendly". My best friends are the Ketarov with which I have had free trade since early days as they are natural friends, but they have never accepted a territory map swap, and are "quite unfriendly".

[alexalexuk]

eta starport fix?

[Sithuk]

I'm holding off a new game until the starport problem is patched too. It hasn't been long since the last beta patch though, so we shouldn't expect it for a while.

[Bingeling]

I don't think the starports are the real problem.

I would think the AI needs to budget better. Get a real value for their yearly expenses, cashflow is not a correct measure as it is calculated today.

Assign budgets for activites.

- Construction ship maintenance
- Exploration ship maintenance
- Agent maintenance
- (some other stuff)

The level for these should be depending on some number of colonies, GDP, stuff like that.

Assign a budget for military ship maintenance, but have this as the most flexible point. Retire ships if needed (attempt to do the worst deals first). Retire ground troops that also must be in the budget somewhere.

Filter in spaceport maintenance in this. Have the AI understand the value of space ports, that they are also a positive factor.

Have the AI fill its maintenance budget posts (explorers, spaceports, construction ships...) as long as there is enough current money to do the purchase.

Testing would be needed to ensure that the AI does not end up with nice spaceports and no protection in the form of ground troops and fleets.

Give the AI excessive priority to have at least some space ports in each region.

A hint for the AI:

If you want a large space port and a defensive base on your homeworld, and some nasty human player have destroyed both, don't notice that you lack the funds and buy only the defensive base. Buy the best space port you can afford first.

If your planet is blockaded by a fleet, don't build a new space port there, it is a sure way to drain your budget, especially if that planet is your capital and you try to build large space ports for it.

Maybe also realize that if the nasty guy has killed your space ports and your home world is blockaded, leaving very little income, peace is very desired. Especially if there is no fleet to lift the blockade. An extremely desired peace could warrant huge offers. Like a non-contested colony.

The total picture is complex, but this does of course not invalidate an option to make a quick fix for more space ports (special rule gets them built).

[shinobu]

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

I'm holding off a new game until the starport problem is patched too...

+1

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I have no clue if this is related to this beta, or if it is a long standing issue. My recent AAR with the AI controlling all but the armed forces, makes me think that the following factors help explain missing space ports.

1: The AI does not build when cash flow is negative. This is true for what appears to be all kind of construction, possibly spy recruitment, but it does not stop diplomatic gifts. When cash flow is positive, it builds silly amounts of stuff. As a human I can estimate the military forces needed, and the answer is not always "whatever I can afford". For the subject here, it is relevant that space ports appear to be on the list of things not built when the cash flow is red.

2: War and the following loss of trade hurts the cash flow. Often the AI is always in war.

3: If space ports are good for the economy, this is a circle that reinforces itself.

4: Cash flow is not a true value for economic balance, which makes it less imnportant. The bonus income is a more or less steady flow which can allow a human player (and probably AI too) to accumulate money while being in the red. Introducing some kind of budgeting for this income would improve matters at least a little, but probably not solve the problem.

5: A human player can make rules like "If I got more than 100k, I don't hesitate to build space ports". My AI sits at 1.6 million and don't spend a dime, it got no understanding of having cash on hand. Admittedly, if ships were bought to the extent that the wanted in periods of positive cash flow, there would not be 1.6 million, but it is hard to estimate how much less, the bonus income would still accumulate.

Early in the AAR before the AI found wars to fight, two small space ports were built. After the first war, when cash flow went positive, a medium space port were ordered. During wars, with cash flow slightly negative (but bank balance increasing), nothing at all is ordered.

A related issue is that the AI uses explorers as scouts in war time. This is really a good idea. But scouts die, and dead explorers won't be replaced, because war makes the cash balance negative. An issue with this apart from no more war scouting, is that this stops exploration, which is needed to discover both new strike targets and the colonies of those you want to trade with.

6: I assume not knowing where you free trade partner lives inhibits the trade somewhat. This helps make the cash flow negative. See: the dead explorer issue.

My AI state departments spam territory map swap requests, but not a lot have accepted them. I guess the Atuuk are eager to extend their trade network compared to others.

Btw, I go by my AI which is Atuuk, of which the manual says:

- Quite aggressive. This may explain the war mongering.
- Extremely reckless. This may explain the crazy eagerness to raid outposts.
- Extremely friendly. This may explain why they spam territory map swap requests and have them denied.

The first two are a recipe for war, which helps introduce "no space ports". The last may show that if all were as friendly, people would swap territory maps. It swaps a lot of map with humans which are "quite friendly", and have at one time in early game swapped with Kiadian which are "slightly friendly". My best friends are the Ketarov with which I have had free trade since early days as they are natural friends, but they have never accepted a territory map swap, and are "quite unfriendly".

You may be onto something. I have noticed that the races with better economies do build more spaceports, and the ones with any type of income bonus will do so more often. Another thing is the default distance between ports, which if you look under policies is set to 700k. This may need to be drastically reduced, as a 1400 star galaxy has a lot less space between systems than the smaller galaxies.

[Bingeling]

Just to add from my now stopped AAR game. I had conquered two alien home worlds, and the moment the cashflow went positive two large space ports were instantly built, giving each of the two former capital systems a large space port. I was in eternal wars, and the cashflow was red for ages with no build activity.

It is true that you should save with negative cashflow, but only if cashflow is really negative, which is not necessarily the case in this game.

[Apheirox]

Dear developers,

you really need to address the AI research issue before you let this patch go live. This is a fairly critical issue. What I mean is how the AI is only using a fraction of its full research potential at the start of the game. With a Technocracy government, for instance, you have something like 800 research potential right from the start of the game. The AI uses only ~100 of this because it doesn't build research stations unless it's at a 'research location'. Consequently, the AI is a lot behind in the research race right off the bat.

You need to make the AI retrofit its initial space port to a model that has a lot more built-in research labs right from the very start of the game. Alternately - and this is probably the better solution - have all empires (including the human) simply start with a space port that has a lot more built-in research modules. It makes no sense at all to start all empires off with much too few labs to use up their research potential.

Keep up the good work and make DW all it can be. Thanks!

PS: Note that instead of fixing this it would actually be much better to change how research works. I have outlined the logic behind this suggestion here: tm.asp?m=2726923

[Apheirox]

I discovered another major balance issue as well: Ruins on starting home worlds. In my recentmost game (based on which I address a number of critical AI issues: tm.asp?m=2726892 , my empire had a huge unfair advantage due to having a massive +30% development bonus on the homeworld planet. Since this was a game on 'starting' settings (single planet empire, basic research) it essentially meant I had a 30% bigger economy right from the start of the match, skewering balance completely. You need to make a rule that the worlds on which empires spawn can never have ruins.

[Data]

we can customize this so that we can set it as we like....I imagine beginers would like such an advantage

[Bingeling]

After running two games where AI has decided the start, I find the AI good at building research stations. True, at the very start it is slow, but it does not last long.

A solution is not harder than letting your AI do the building for you, and not do a cheesy retrofit to a super home port. That you use something that resembles and exploit does not mean that the AI have to do so too.

[unclean]

I don't think that's an exploit, instead of retrofitting you can always just build research stations at your homeworld for the same effect. It's good play, and I don't see why the AI shouldn't do the same, really.

[WoodMan]

Perhaps research should only be able to be carried out at all at a research location, and the research points available there should be split evenly between all stations so you can't build many at the same point.  To get you rolling first thing in the game Colonies should also provide research based on the population.

I know its a total change to the game mechanics, but it would make research more difficult and more fun!

[Apheirox]

They should change research to how I described in the linked thread. See above.