Nato symbols only are a no-go for WWII games

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I don't really know why I bother to answer this, it is hard to tell if this thread is for real or trolling...

I think it's real. No matter how a game is designed and presented, some people always want something else.

They usually get blown out of the water by the forum members, usually they have insufficient in game experience and seem to have formulated an opinion without doing any groundwork.

This is common across many forums of various types.

I remember the various threads about Combat Losses, First Winter Rules, Soviet 1-1 Battle Odds Victories, I paid loadsa money for this game and it's bugged!

There all the same.

Best post I ever read was...

"I have seen this game sold at this website and it's priced at this amount, I thought I would mention this for people who don't have much money"

Of course the guy posted this on Matrix's website and was recommending people buy from elsewhere.

The Official response was one of Disapointment.

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster
They usually get blown out of the water by the forum members, usually they have insufficient in game experience and seem to have formulated an opinion without doing any groundwork.

This is common across many forums of various types.

my friend..I dont know what you think but this is a true ignorant statement as you know nothing about me. So assuming this or that just shows that you judge out of your ass. In the US this may be called an ad hominem attack (trying to ridicule or belittle others) and is usually a sign that people have no real arguments.
As I said before I played thousand of games in over 30 years. Additionally Iam dev member of one of the greatest and surely the biggest Rome Total War mods yet created and sign responsible for the creation of one of the most challenging RTW roman campaings until today developing the concept, artwork, scripting and coding and I invite you to TWC center forums to have a look at Roma Surrectum II.
Talking about game experince and creation: Whats on your book if I may ask ?

sigh..I expected flaming but I thought this board would be a bit more mature...hope dies last...nevermind

[Bourguignon]

I prefer play with nato symbols. I don't focus on graphics: this is not what I'm searching in this kind of game.
But I respect others choices. There is a place for every one
But Wite is not Panzer General and i must say that I have'nt find such a good game since 30 years I'm playing wargames
Best regards to all and congratulation to Wite Team
marc

* excuse my poor English

[Manstein63]

I have played HOI as well as the Matrix title Time of Wrath & the 1st thing that I did was change the sprites over to counters. I was brought up with board games SPI's Kursk ADG' World in Flames the Russian Campaign as well as 3rd Reich so when I play a computer wargame I just prefer to have counters rather than sprites. If the developers of WitE did a version with sprites I think that you would become tired of them fairly quickly as this game doesn't really lend itself to that kind of graphic IMHO.
Manstein63

[76mm]

IMO this game would be totally unplayable with sprites, and I find it difficult (OK, actually impossible) to understand why a serious wargamer would refuse to play a wargame like WitE because of this issue. If sprites are that important to you, and you are a big fan of PG, this is probably not the game for you.

[morganbj]

Gee, I played my first hexfield game 50 years ago. It wasn't PG.

[Flaviusx]

Hey, I loved PG back in the day. It was a great game. I also played the heck out of all the other games in that series (Fantasy General was very cool too.)

But sprites in this game don't make much sense to me either.

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

IMO this game would be totally unplayable with sprites

I actually agree with you when talking abiout the current state of the game, therefore I mentioned the additional zoom level were the single hex-field would become big enough to feature a sprite as in the current max zoom level this would look awkward, you are totally right

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
But sprites in this game don't make much sense to me either.

I talked about basic sprites where one can differ at first sight between division types more easily, not talking about miniaturized battle animations...

[Mynok]

You guys should really do your homework before cause you came here with empty hands and nothing more than polemic statements without substance

Hex based wargames have been around since the early seventies. You are the one spouting substance-free crap.

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

You guys should really do your homework before cause you came here with empty hands and nothing more than polemic statements without substance

Hex based wargames have been around since the early seventies. You are the one spouting substance-free crap.

we talk about pc games and not board games dude...
you dont even read right and post before thinking

ORIGINAL: Chris10
The flash point of PC hex-wargames was without a doubt PG in 94
which combined a remarkably intuitive user interface with a game engine that had enough depth and "chrome" to attract even serious war gamers. Although several levels of abstraction away from a real model of warfare, it made players confront many of the choices actually faced by campaign commanders. It was so good at this, in fact, that Air Command and Staff College (ACSC) actually experimented with using a version of it (Pacific General) as a teaching tool in campaign-level planning.
Beyond this, the game was fun. It provoked a reaction within the gaming community akin to that of Jim Dunnigan's Panzer Blitz (Avalon Hill, 1970), whose popularity back in the early seventies helped create much of today's grognard community and John Hill's Squad Leader (Avalon Hill, 1977), which helped fuel the great board-war-game boom of the late seventies. The war-gaming hobby seems to need a fun, accessible hit every so often to attract new players or re-attract old ones and WITE could be one of these but without an appealing user interface only featuring dry symbols it hardly can live up to its promises which is just a pity.

[Flaviusx]

Chris10, this game draws direct inspiration from monster hex based board games; it is a spiritual descendant of these and aimed to appeal to an audience of veteran boardgamers. All this is admitted upfront by the game developers and playtesters like myself, who got our first chops in this sort of thing playing Fire in the East (GDW) and War in the East (SPI) and such.

The intended target audience wouldn't really appreciate sprites for this genre.

That said, if there's enough interest in this sort of thing, maybe somebody could make a sprites mod for the game.

[Mynok]

we talk about pc games and not board games dude...
you dont even read right and post before thinking

Games are games. Period. You don't get to define the terms.

The very concept of a hex in a game comes from boardgames. They are more than relevant to the discussion.

[Chris10]

deleted...double post...grrr..this board is a bit different from my home one

[Chris10]

deleted...double post

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Chris10, this game draws direct inspiration from monster hex based board games; it is a spiritual descendant of these and aimed to appeal to an audience of veteran boardgamers. All this is admitted upfront by the game developers and playtesters like myself, who got our first chops in this sort of thing playing Fire in the East (GDW) and War in the East (SPI) and such.

The intended target audience wouldn't really appreciate sprites for this genre.

That said, if there's enough interest in this sort of thing, maybe somebody could make a sprites mod for the game.

I can see, understand and appreciate this point...however..making good sprites and implement them the right way (Optional) does NOT take away the nato symbols but could attract less hardocre players too..is that so hard to understand ?...this topic is not about taking something away but to make the game more accessible to a wider range of clients...after then everybody can play with his nato symbols or sprites or bangers or whatever

Unfortunately the current max zoom does not allow for hex-field sufficient big for feature sprites so modding this is no option as by now as there would be a slight change in the engine needed (of course in the zoomed map too). Then hex fields would be big enough...

ORIGINAL: Mynok

we talk about pc games and not board games dude...
you dont even read right and post before thinking

Games are games. Period. You don't get to define the terms.

The very concept of a hex in a game comes from boardgames. They are more than relevant to the discussion.

uselss to discuss this as you refuse to take some reasonable positions and just looking for "bashing"

[Ketza]

Sprites are for Wargame noobs.

Thats the final say.
[8D]

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Chris10
...however..making good sprites and implement them the right way (Optional) does NOT take away the nato symbols but could attract less hardocre players too..is that so hard to understand ?...this topic is not about taking something away but to make the game more accessible to a wider range of clients...after then everybody can play with his nato symbols or sprites or bangers or whatever

LOL, so just adding sprites would make this game "more accessible to a wider range of clients"? I completely disagree, it would a form of false advertising. If I bought this game expecting something like PG, I would be pretty pissed off, because this game is very very different, and appeals to different types. Just adding sprites won't change that a bit. With that, I'm finished with this thread...

[JocMeister]

I like NATO symbols [:'(]

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Hex based wargames have been around since the early seventies.

Surely longer than that. IIRC AH's Gettysburg was a hex game; that was about 1961

[Theng]

If there would be significant amount of demand for sprites, someone would have created such mod already. The great thing about this game is that you can make a mod that takes care of the visual overlay. While you ask for an additional zoom level, this might be counterproductive since it will provide a microscopic view of a macro problem. In general, sprites do not offer the information density that tile symbols (NATO or their predecessors) offer. In a game with such huge amount of data that needs to be visually presented, information density is of huge importance.

PS: You did not help your case, by describing PG as father of computer wargames. While it was certainly popular, its popularity was due to its deliberate and self-admitted "beer and pretzels" approach to computer wargaming, which was already a more than a decades old genre. Please view War in Russia as a free game on this site as a predecessor to this game, significantly preceeding PG. This game, with all due respect, is not a beer and pretzels game. There is room for both, but putting a beer and pretzels veneer over it, does not make a lot of sense. Never the less, I am sure nobody will object to you creating such a mod for your and other people's enjoyment.