What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I didn't know it was their strategy to wait a bit.... but 4 to 6 divisions? no way... maybe 1 or 2 divisions and go very lightly equiped as the Japanese did early war (against tremendously light resistance)

it took the Allies significant resources and years or planning, trainning, preparing, etc. to achieve a 5-division invasion in 1944

And of couse German dive-bombing were top notch, but battleships were very tough targets; unless torpedoes are in the equation

couple of 500kg bombs on a BB will mission kill it. It's not always about sinking it, even if it only comes down to a certain number of bombs and fires plus other damage may sink the ship. And everything else in terms of ships can be sunk with bombs of that size. The Luftwaffe was probably a bigger threat to the RN than the Kriegsmarine was.

Well for sure, but imagine the effect of the 20mm cannon from a Beaufighter on a 100 ton landing barge. It would not only be British vessels in the channel when the big day came. (Then again, now that I think of it I don't think the Beaufighter was quite operational at the time..[;)])

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I didn't know it was their strategy to wait a bit.... but 4 to 6 divisions? no way... maybe 1 or 2 divisions and go very lightly equiped as the Japanese did early war (against tremendously light resistance)

it took the Allies significant resources and years or planning, trainning, preparing, etc. to achieve a 5-division invasion in 1944

And of couse German dive-bombing were top notch, but battleships were very tough targets; unless torpedoes are in the equation

couple of 500kg bombs on a BB will mission kill it. It's not always about sinking it, even if it only comes down to a certain number of bombs and fires plus other damage may sink the ship. And everything else in terms of ships can be sunk with bombs of that size. The Luftwaffe was probably a bigger threat to the RN than the Kriegsmarine was.

Well for sure, but imagine the effect of the 20mm cannon from a Beaufighter on a 100 ton landing barge. It would not only be British vessels in the channel when the big day came. (Then again, now that I think of it I don't think the Beaufighter was quite operational at the time..[;)])

I'd assume if it comes down to the Luftwaffe attacking RN ships and barges actually crossing the channel the RAF should not be in a state anymore to have Beaufighters attacking them.

[castor troy]

One thing I was always thinking about when it comes down to Sealion was the use of mines. Now how hard is it to close the channel on both sides with mines? Doesn't seem to be that hard is it? A concentrated effort of the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine as preparation in the weeks before the invasion goes in. There were enough far bigger areas a no go zone than the West and East entrances of the Channel were. You don't have to sink the RN, you have to keep it from getting to your invasion.

[Amoral]

A mining effort likely could have screened an invasion for a day or two before channels were swept clear. But Churchill had no plans to stop an invasion fleet at sea. Every man the Germans landed was doomed to be a POW or KIA, and he welcomed the idea of an attempted landing.

The insurmountable challenge for the Germans was not getting men ashore, it was keeping them supplied for the weeks afterwards.

[gradenko2k]

Never miss an opportunity to re-post this:
http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/Miscellaneous/Sealion.htm

Sealion would not have worked.

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I didn't know it was their strategy to wait a bit.... but 4 to 6 divisions? no way... maybe 1 or 2 divisions and go very lightly equiped as the Japanese did early war (against tremendously light resistance)

it took the Allies significant resources and years or planning, trainning, preparing, etc. to achieve a 5-division invasion in 1944

And of couse German dive-bombing were top notch, but battleships were very tough targets; unless torpedoes are in the equation

couple of 500kg bombs on a BB will mission kill it. It's not always about sinking it, even if it only comes down to a certain number of bombs and fires plus other damage may sink the ship. And everything else in terms of ships can be sunk with bombs of that size. The Luftwaffe was probably a bigger threat to the RN than the Kriegsmarine was.

Sadly, the main force of the German 'invasion' was to be carried in Rhine River Barges which, when loaded, had a freeboard of about 6" ... low enough that choppy seas would sink them ... and the wake from a fast moving warship. Like a 'mission killed' BB ...

... then there's the problem that the Luftwaffe Stukas found it almost impossible to actually *hit* warships at any period in the war ... for example, there was the British DD that fought off continuous Stuka attacks off Crete with *blanks* ...

... and the problem that the German air launched torpedo was so bad (effectively a 100% failure rate) that, in the end, they threw in the towel and bought ITALIAN torpedoes ... but not before late 1941, IIRC.

... and the problem that only (literally) one or two Squadrons were trained for maritime air attacks, and used mostly floatplanes or types even more obsolete than Stukas in the period in question.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Stukas wouldn't carry 250kg bombs plus their 50kg bombs for anti shipping strikes on major RN assets. A Stuka could (but barely ever did) carry a 1000kg bomb.

As to your mentioned examples like Malta etc., well, how much of the Luftwaffe was involved in these attacks? You may think that after beating the RAF the main purpose of the Luftwaffe would be to fend off the RN, not using one or two squadrons for this task. And I never said they would stop the RN, I said the Luftwaffe would be a bigger threat to the RN than the Kriegsmarine in case of an invasion.

Unfortunately, reality bites ... the Germans didn't have *any* AP Bombs capable of penetrating warship armour in 1939-40 - certainly not of BBs, which could sink the invasion barges, with their 6" freeboard, by high speed passes swamping them.

And they proved incapable of hitting lightly armoured warships often enough to have any real impact on the war.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

The Luftwaffe stopped the coastal convoys through the channel

Well, it was a combination of losses and the realisation that it would be much more sensible to move the cargoes by rail.

Basically, its back to what actually happened. The Luftwaffe had to beat the RAF for an invasion to be even remotely possible, and as that never happened, it was a non starter

They stopped *daytime* convoys, not the ones that moved at night.

London remained open throughout the war, for example, and the only way to get there was to move through the Channel.

Note that the German invasion fleet, mostly Rhine River Barges that had to be towed, was so slow in speed that it was going to take at least 24 and more like 36 hours EACH WAY to cross the Channel ... so, daytime RAF attacks and, well, night-time RN attacks ... the Home fleet could even have sortied south during the night and then retired northwards under a strong RAF umbrella for the short period of daylight it'd have been in range of ineffective Luftwaffe attacks anyway.

It beggars belief to accept that a significant portion of the German invasion fleet would a) get across the Channel to England and then b) return to pick up more troops and supplies in any way close to intact.

Indeed, the final realistic plan was for there to be a THREE WEEK delay between the first wave (elements of 12 German divisions, all infantry, all without heavy artillery) being landed on a broad front, the equivalent of 3-4 actual German divisions in manpower (and a German division was 2/3rd the manpower of a UK one) and the followup wave.

The fantasy plans about landing Panzer divisions in the first wave were late in the period and so obviously fantasy that the Kriegsmarine planners basically resorted to writing rude comments on anything originating from the Heer, as they'd been told not to let reality intervene in the planning process by Herr Hitler.

Phil

[HexHead]

Damn straight.

[panzer cat]

Even if the germans crossed the channel, the brits would have destroyed all of the ports long before they were taken.

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: panzer cat

Even if the germans crossed the channel, the brits would have destroyed all of the ports long before they were taken.

There's really only two in the area that were worth spit, Dover - which had actually had very limited dockfront space and wasn't capable of unloading the number and/or size of vessels needed to support the invasion even if undamaged and Folkestone, which wasn't all that much bigger and which was also of limited capacity ...

Any other ports are really only suitable for small craft like fishing boats.

Even if Dover and Folkestone had been taken intact, their capacity was probably not enough to support a invasion.

Then, of course, there's the shipping problem ... the Germans weren't actually overendowed with suitable shipping, which is one of the reasons that they relied mostly on Rhine River barges ... I don't think they actually had the type and number of cargo vessels needed to supply their army through the ports in question anyway, especially Tankers, of which they had damn all, to supply the needs of the Panzer Divisions that would have been needed to really have a chance of taking the UK.

That's, of course, assuming they could take and hold the ports long enough and intact enough to get any Panzers ashore ... the original plan called for beaching the barges carrying the tanks and blowing their bows off so the Panzers could get ashore. Either that or launching them, somehow, at sea with *long* snorkels and having them grind their way ashore, completely blind, mind, under water with no way of escaping if the engine stalled or they got stuck ... and no actual Panzer crews were consulted as to the likelihood of this actually being attempted by them, of course.

The later plans to get an entire Panzer Division ashore in the first wave eschewed any pretense of actually providing any way it could actually be done ... hence my earlier comment about the Kriegsmarine officers scrawling rude comments (still viewable on the archived copies available) about the Heer 'planners' all over the documents. [:D]

Phil

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

Operation Sealion would have been an utter disaster.

Here is an interesting link: http://www.wargaming.co/books/paddyspra ... ealion.htm

I thinks those are the pictures that go with the map and narrative I posted above - nice find!


Leo "Apollo11"