Japanese defensive strategy...

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Damien Thorn
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by Damien Thorn »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Damien -

All the Japanese planes got slaughtered. The IJN threw some 200 aircraft into the fray. They were beaten too. The problem was that that which Japan wanted to do was NOT DOABLE in the face of the opposition.

I know the planes got slaughtered. I said that. If they had not ( like if the pilots had actually been decently trained and experienced ) there is no reason they couldn't have landed at the bases and taken off again in the afternoon or the next morning. No need for a month of downtime.
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mogami
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Down time

Post by mogami »

Hi, In examing the movements of Japanese air units during SRA operations I don't find any evidence of "Downtime" as a result of the move. The important item seems to be, when do the ground support troops arrive? The Japanese landings during Dec all seem to be aimed at securing forward airfields. Jolo captured on Christmas Day 1941 has combat aircraft flying by Jan 7 1942. (I don't know exact date air units moved to Jolo. Only that base was captured and less then 2 weeks later fighters from Jolo were flying CAP over Tarakan landings. This does not mean these were first flights from Jolo only the first I can find where they shot down enemy aircraft. There were no aviation support troops among units that landed on Jolo in on Dec 25th. Because these units belonged to 16th Army HQ at Palau I assume support units had to move from Palau to Jolo sometime between the 25th of Dec and Jan 7.

In my plan for defense of Saipan all 3 islands will already have support troops in position from 1 Jan 44 on. (limited numbers from Dec 41 on but 250 points worth by start of battle.)
The PI bases will as a result also need to have support units present as it will do little good to intend to move forward airgroups that have been stationed without support for any length of time.
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brisd
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by brisd »

If aircraft fly in as a group, land at a base that has sufficient air support, there should be no reason they can't operate rather quickly. I haven't play UV in months but will again soon to prep for WITP, but I recall that fatigue would be added to the newly based aircraft, a one-time 'hit' that they could recover from. Does WITP have any operation point 'pool' for an aircraft command? Say there are op points for each week for each air HQ and it takes so many op points to do airstrikes, take replacements, perform each particular mission such as strike, asw, training, transfer, the later taking the most op points.

I'd say if you transfer an airgroup from one air HQ to another, that group would be very ineffective as their command and support structure would be new. If there is a way to transfer air groups with an air HQ, then they disruption would be less. Each air HQ can only control a limited number of air groups effectly and each group over that limit becomes less effective. How about that solution?
"I propose to fight it out on this line if it takes all summer."-Note sent with Congressman Washburne from Spotsylvania, May 11, 1864, to General Halleck. - General Ulysses S. Grant
sven6345789
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RE: Down time

Post by sven6345789 »

several questions occur tome
1.What do you have to archieve to get Japan to surrender (victory point ratio, i guess)
2. the game reaches into 1946. Until when?
3. if it reaches well into 1946, do any allied forces arrive from europe (8th airforce was expected in total, including 1st Army-HQ with several divisions), since the troops in the pacific in may 1945 were not sufficient to invade Japan.

by the way, imagine the soviets blitzing around in Manchuria and China for over a year, oh dear.
Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

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jnier
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by jnier »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Damien -

All the Japanese planes got slaughtered. The IJN threw some 200 aircraft into the fray. They were beaten too. The problem was that that which Japan wanted to do was NOT DOABLE in the face of the opposition.

What a maddening response. Damein already said they got slaughtereed - what is your point?
Mike Scholl
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, How long do you think it takes to move aircraft from the rear to forward bases?
(USN transports should be spotted 2-3 days before they can land. Fast TF's might not be spotted before they are 1 day from contact.
One problem with your ideas (and they are as sound as any I've seen) is that they seem
to require Japan (which is short of everything) to maintain duplicate or triplicate service
and support capability for these several thousand aircraft. Yes, you can move A/C a-
round fairly rapidly..., but not the maintainence crews and facilities and spares and such.
Japan also had a severe shortage of mechanics compared to the US with it's massive
automotive tradition. I don't know how the game chooses to model this (if it does at
all) but maintaining complete basing and servicing facilities for dozens of air groups in
several locations so they can just "zoom in and out" as the need arises is almost beyond
US capabilities, and far beyond what the Japanese should be able to manage.
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ColFrost
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by ColFrost »

While "mdiehl" brings up a lot of heart felt points, I think he misses the main point himself.

I am all for historical accuracy. The more accurate, the more fun I have. But doesn't there have to be /some/ leeway for playability? It seems that Mr. Diehl has a firm belief that the IJN will be/should be slaughtered every time they come out of the harbor, and that after a certain date, the results should be inevitable.

While having a game as accurate as possible is a laudable goal, the developers should make sure the game is at least somewhat different then history. I don't really want to play a thousand hours of a game that's more predetermined then John Calvin.

Mr. Diehl, are you actually intending to play it, when it comes out?
...the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding go out and meet it.

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Mr.Frag
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by Mr.Frag »

I am all for historical accuracy. The more accurate, the more fun I have. But doesn't there have to be /some/ leeway for playability? It seems that Mr. Diehl has a firm belief that the IJN will be/should be slaughtered every time they come out of the harbor, and that after a certain date, the results should be inevitable.

Actually, I agree with Mdiehl here, historical accuracy is a priority, game play can be addressed through the editor if one wants to adjust odds. The results are a forgone conclusion but the time frame is completely under the control of the players skills and that makes all the difference in the world. If I ever win, I don't ever want anyone to be able to say I won because the game was tweeked in the interests of playability and Japan was unrealistically strengthened.

Frankly, if I even thought that was the case, the game really would be of no interest to play as Japan. Whats the point? Any fool can do better with better stuff ... It's all about doing better with the same stuff that makes war gaming the most unique form of entertainment there is.
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ColFrost
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by ColFrost »

That's not what I meant, actually.

Let me try to rephrase. It seems Mr. Diehl seems to be saying, if the result of the game is not in line with what happened historically, then the game is broken, and not worth playing. I was of the understanding that he was saying, to paraphrase "If the Japanese player does better then what happened historically, in any particular degree, then the game is not true to what it should be."

If this was not what Mr. Diehl was saying, then I was incorrect in my post, and apologize.
...the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding go out and meet it.

-Thucydides
Drongo
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by Drongo »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Actually, I agree with Mdiehl here, historical accuracy is a priority...

I agree with him as well so long as it's not his version of historical accuracy that's used. [:'(]
If I ever win, I don't ever want anyone to be able to say I won because the game was tweeked in the interests of playability and Japan was unrealistically strengthened.
You summed it up perfectly.

My version would've read:
Of course I bloody lost, I was playing the real Japanese for ****'s sake!!!
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
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ColFrost
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by ColFrost »

If I ever win, I don't ever want anyone to be able to say I won because the game was tweeked in the interests of playability and Japan was unrealistically strengthened.

Gahhh. I agree with this.

How did I come off sounding like a Japanese fan boy?[:(]
...the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding go out and meet it.

-Thucydides
Drongo
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by Drongo »

ORIGINAL: ColFrost
How did I come off sounding like a Japanese fan boy?[:(]

How does one not around here? [;)]
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
bradfordkay
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by bradfordkay »

Since I've been reading a history of VMF 214 this week, I have this information freshly in mind. Squadrons regularly flew up to Russell Island from Luganville and operated the same or next day. The same happened later in squadron relocations from Guadalcanal to Munda/Vella La Vella. From those bases units would often (later) fly up to Torokina on Bougainville to reform for strikes against Rabaul, thence returning to Munda/VLV (if enough fuel remained).

VMF 214s own ground forces (support forces) never left the Luganville area the whole time the squadron served in the Solomons. Indeed, from what I've been reading, aircraft were not even truly the property of any particular squadron when at forward bases. When squadrons were withdrawn for R&R, the pilots usually loaded into C47s and left the a/c behind for other squadrons to use. It seems that the only a/c normally flown back were ones that were in need of serious ovberhaul (and still flyable enough to get there).
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sven6345789
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by sven6345789 »

historical outcome; oh, well.
let's put it this way. After the Allies decided to go out for unconditional surrender, the Japanese NEVER had a Chance. period.
It all depends on when the Campaign ends.
Lets assume the Japanese would not have been victory sick. lets further assume Midway doesn't happen, leaving all Kido Butai ready for an attack or counterattack.
The allied Counterattack would not have taken place in August 1942 without Midway.It would probably happen later on, maybe even a year later. In 1942, some leading military brass of the allies expected the war in the Pacific to be won in 1947 or even 1948. Therefore, in the game, the question is not whether Japan can win (They can't), but whether you can do better then your historical counterpart up to the point where the game ends. Same is true for the allies. Actually, reproducing the allied victory and keeping up to the historical timeframe will prove to be difficult in my opinion. Never underestimate the enemy. remember that even with Midway, it took the allies 1 Year to break the Bismarck Barrier, finally isolating Rabaul. Imagine how much more difficult that will be without Midway (UV does a good job at simulating this, no matter what other people say about it. In Version 2.30, I am quite happy with the results produced so far). If the Japanese preserve their forces, there just WON'T BE a Marianas Turkey Shoot (Although it might happen a year later).
Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

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mdiehl
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by mdiehl »

Let me try to rephrase. It seems Mr. Diehl seems to be saying, if the result of the game is not in line with what happened historically, then the game is broken, and not worth playing. I was of the understanding that he was saying, to paraphrase "If the Japanese player does better then what happened historically, in any particular degree, then the game is not true to what it should be."

If this was not what Mr. Diehl was saying, then I was incorrect in my post, and apologize.

It's not what I was saying. It's an old chestnut and forgive me for saying so but it is also an illogical one. If you desire that the game is "about WW2 in the PTO", then you've automatically constrained yourself to a logical premise that the strategic problems facing the combatants in the game should more or less resemble the ones of the real event. Likewise the ships, the aircraft, the soldiers, their technical capabilities, etc should all be accurately modeled. This leaves the players in the position of having to deal with the same overall strategic problems using the same general suites of equipment and, frankly, tactics. I say tactics because there are levels of detail to which players do not have access. PLayer's do not, for example, get to rearrange air combat doctrine such that the inferior Japanese 3-plane section switches to a 4-plane section. The USN seems not to have a capability to wish away their torpedo problems (and by the way it puzzles me that the Axis Fanboys seem to think it is fair to model this problem but not Japanese problems in technical maintenance of radios, radar and sonar, or the absence of a good ASW doctrine). So there are some things that we can't change by virtue of what's given in the game.

Essentially, players decide where to attack and with what, and where to defend and with what. To wit, long term strategic objectives and shorter term operational planning and execution. That is where the variation ... the deviation from history... lies. Insisting on historical accuracy in the production, technical, intelligence, tactical or training models does not straightjacket the players into waging the war exactly as fought.

Now, I understand that playing the Japanese does not appeal to Axis Fanboys if the Japanese can't win every surface combat, or if each Japanese pilot is not credited with 120 kills, 60 "officially confirmed," when the real world reality is more like 15-20, or where the Japanese seize Alaska and Hawaii, Australia and India. My response is that game has already been written. Several times really. There's GGPW, there's Pacific General, and boardgames like "Rising Sun" and "A World At War." None of these bear the slightest resemblence in terms of "look and feel" to WW2, either in terms of the general strategic picture, or in the routine results of battle-level events. They do, however, presume that Japanese pilots were in general superior (where they weren't), that their planes were superior (where they weren't), that the opposition was economically weaker than they were, that China is much easier to occupy than it really was, that India was an open void just waiting for the first IJN transport to show up and elevate the INC to power, etc. If you want a game that gives Japan that capability, why wait around for WitP? And if that were the goal of WitP, why would anybody purchase it? After all, said game is already available.

What do you do? Balanced victory conditions is my consistent target. But if you really want a game where each side has balanced capability, maybe you should play chess, or Go, or something else.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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brisd
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by brisd »

From my perspective, a wargamer of 30+ years, I look forward to playing both sides in this struggle. I tend to play the underdogs, such as the Axis in WW2, as I find it more challenging. I want this game to reflect the challenges, both strategically and tactically, that both sides faced. Does it make me an Japanese fanboy to think that they could have done even better than historically? Considering the odds they faced, they did rather well in retrospect. Convential wisdom said the French Army would put up a great fight in WW2 as they did in WW1 yet looked what happened? Same for the campaign that resulted in Singapore's surrender so quickly. When I look at the map of Pacific, I see a great void and an opportunity for conquest. Why didn't Japan take New Caladonia and isolate Australia in early 42? Or isolate India by taking Ceylon? I know that supplying either operation would be a great challenge and that is part of what the designers need to get right - the logistics and OOB. Give us the tools (ships, airforces, troops) and we can change history. Same goes for allied side - stop the tide sooner, end the war a year early? Japan is incapable of winning a long war of attrition and I expect that to be modeled in the game. I believe the Japanese player should have an chance at a negotiated peace depending on their conduct of the war. As far as editor goes, how about alternate history such as German conquest of USSR and/or Britain? Then the two ocean Navy the USA authorized in summer 1940 and built, with that horrific possibity in mind, must be spread out to Atlantic as well. Japan gambled that Germany would win war in Europe and that is why they launched such a desperate war. Putting down people because they want to play one side or another or have options to make alternate history is juvenile IMHO.
"I propose to fight it out on this line if it takes all summer."-Note sent with Congressman Washburne from Spotsylvania, May 11, 1864, to General Halleck. - General Ulysses S. Grant
mdiehl
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by mdiehl »

Does it make me an Japanese fanboy to think that they could have done even better than historically?

Not at all! :) Too bad the "You might be an Axis Fanboy if..." thread got destroyed. Maybe it's not that bad, though.

You might be a Japanese fanboy if, for example, you think that "Midway was a result of luck."

You might be a Japanese fanboy if, for example, if you think that as a viable 'alternative history' (a) it is reasonable to assume that the USN CVs might have been in Pearl Harbor at 7:30 AM on 7 December 1941 and (b) it is unreasonable to assume that USN CVs might have been together in a TF 125 miles away from Kido Butai launching a surprise airstrike at 7:30 AM on 7 December 1941.

You might be a Japanese fanboy if you think that 'documented kill ratios indicating a tendency for USN pilots flying F4Fs in 1942 to shoot down more Japanese naval pilots flying A6Ms than the USN pilots lost' is an irrelevant statistic because everybody knows that Tainan Air Group were real men who must have outfought their opposition because that's what Sakai said they did.

You might be a Japanese fanboy if you lament the absence of hard-coded clear cut Japanese surface engagement victories a la Savo Island and Tassafaronga but you think the drubbing inflicted on the IJN at Balikpapan was a fluke.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
sven6345789
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by sven6345789 »

Fact is that the Axis side did have pilots with kills up to 352 (Hartmann), and several of them. The Japanese aces did score that many kills. This numbers have to be seen in relation, though. While japanese aces started their scoring during the battles in China and against the Russians, US aces like Bong or Gabreski started later on, against an at that time stronger enemy. Therefore, there numbers weren't that high.
The ASW-Problem has been adressed several times. The situation for the japanese can be improved, but then only at the cost of diverting several different assets like planes, AV's and DD's to ASW-role, taking these assets out of the frontline. Even if the allied subs are not in the area, the japanese needs to divert assets, because if they are and he hasn't, good night to all those nice TK's.
I have played UV the last three weeks, and I don't find the Japanese to be overly strong.
They have more experienced pilots, but not for long if they don't watch out.
Once the allied steamroller gets into motion, you get in trouble. Of course, experienced japanese players go after Noumea, taking the allies out before they build up. But, 1.that tactic can backfire, 2.Such a go for broke tactic doesn't work in WITP, since there is no end of the map (at least not one you can reach that easy, unless i missinterpret the overview-map on the WITP Homepage).
As much as I have seen about this game in this forum, it does seem to be well balanced.
If Mogami would play the japanese against an allied player his strength, and would win 5 out of 6 games, that would be proof that the game is unbalanced (Mogami, maybe you can post the results once you have these games completed, hopefully the internet will still exist in 20 years[:D]).seriously, the game looks like a lot of fun to me. And that is the most important thing for me, if combined with historical detail. Therefore, perfect
Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

Letter from a U.S. Marine,November 1943
Mike Scholl
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by Mike Scholl »

After 40+ years of wargaming, I can truthfully state that the reason I generally
gravitate to the "favored" or "big battalion" side is the the same one that keeps
me from going to Vegas anymore. "If it wasn't for bad luck.., I'd have no luck
at all." I've always admired the players who could get a lot of milage out of the
"underdog" position, even when it was me thay were getting it against. But I
find that the risks necessary to play those positions always fail when I'm the one
playing them. With "mass" I can at least eliminate the low odds disasters that
would otherwise plague me by making sure I keep the odds above the bad luck
line. I thought computers would be the answer, but I will swear to one and all on
a stack of Bibles that my own computer will "cheat" on me at the drop of a hat.
If the rule book says that "such and such" is a 75% chance of victory, I can be
absolutely sure that I will end up on the 25% side at least 75% of the time. I'm
not an Allied "Fan-Boy" (or a fan-boy of anything except historical accuracy); but
I will admit to guarding the Allied Chances against any efforts to hamstring them
because I realize that that is the side I will probably play most of the time on. It's
not that I'm unwilling to play the Japanese, but what fun is it for the Allied player
when my PH strike misses everything and Midway is a daily occurance? No it's
not quite that bad..., but even the Allies want the Japanese to be bold and sneaky and challanging---and I have trouble playing that way because I expect to get slammed
if I try it. Which makes me a dull opponant.
mdiehl
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RE: The "Great" Battle

Post by mdiehl »

The Japanese aces did score that many kills.

Nope. The problem is that the number is based on "claims" then subsequently revised downward by Japanese review as "confirmed kills." When you look at the unit records for the units against which Japanese "confirmed kills" occurred, you still find Japanese kills overestimated by anything from a factor of two to an order of magnitude. There is no clear cut pattern. Japanese accounts of one engagement might give very close to real numbers, and the next engagement might be wildly out of reality.. in some instances claiming more Allied planes destroyed than actually participated in the engagement, when in fact the actual number of Allied planes destroyed was one or two. The only trend that I have discerned is that Japanese claims and confirmed kills became increasingly exaggerated as the war progressed.

Hartmann's "confirmed kills" are a matter of someone else's concern. I do not know the extent to which his claims have been verified in the unit records of his opposition, or the extent to which any a/c killed by his unit has been atributed to Hartmann. I do recall that many of his kills were transports, but hey, a kill is a kill.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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