March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Mr.Frag
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by Mr.Frag »

To me, this indicates that this is not just some random number generator; there is clearly SOMETHING in the play style of some people that triggers it (fairly frequently apparantly) and a lack of that something in the play style of other people that prevents it from occurring. I have no idea where to go with this, but if no one can manage to capture a good repeatable save, it may be the only way to ever get it fixed.

That is generally the case.

One of the problems we testers have is over the years we became pretty good at doing things the right way. It generally takes someone doing it the wrong way to find out that you *can* do it the wrong way and it *does* break something when you do.

No save, no fix. The three repeatable problems were fixed. The fact that there happens to be another that did not get fixed despite the large amount of whining simply points out that people do indeed play differently. Unless you can tell us how you play, we need a save showing how you play. It's really that simple.
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

The thing I do get is to why it is our problem. Why should I have to look at every taskforce or ship to check leaders every turn. I have no saves becasue I have no clue when the leader went bye bye. I don't play the game to look for bugs and this and that. It seems like the more the buying public says the more we get told we are not doing enough.

Could not have said it better! It is NOT OUR job to find 2x3's bugs! Especially design flaws that users cannot reasonably be expected to know EXACTLY when the bug occurs. If I told my customers to do the things these guy tell theirs, I'd have very few customers left. If you've got a save file that demonstrates a bug, that's fine and good, but to EXPECT one for every problem is LUDICROUS.

This is a known bug since initial release. IT is the DEVELOPER's job and ONLY the Developer's job to figure it out!
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
To me, this indicates that this is not just some random number generator; there is clearly SOMETHING in the play style of some people that triggers it (fairly frequently apparantly) and a lack of that something in the play style of other people that prevents it from occurring. I have no idea where to go with this, but if no one can manage to capture a good repeatable save, it may be the only way to ever get it fixed.

That is generally the case.

One of the problems we testers have is over the years we became pretty good at doing things the right way. It generally takes someone doing it the wrong way to find out that you *can* do it the wrong way and it *does* break something when you do.

No save, no fix. The three repeatable problems were fixed. The fact that there happens to be another that did not get fixed despite the large amount of whining simply points out that people do indeed play differently. Unless you can tell us how you play, we need a save showing how you play. It's really that simple.

It's NOT our job to fix YOUR bugs. It is YOUR job to fix YOUR bugs. And these are YOUR bugs! Spend some time messing around and invetigating the damned thing and FIX IT. This bug has been around since day one and some tester somewhere SHOULD be able to duplicate it. The leader bug is a MAJOR FLAW for many people. A big enough one for you people to take the time and try and figure out how it is generated. That is how REAL commercial software shops do things. Oh, I forgot, you have no clue what one of those is.
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scout1
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by scout1 »

Hi, You'd think if a bug was common I would have found one by now. My 8 games represent over 600 turns currently. If my opponenets are having bug problems they are keeping it to themselves.

It will depend on your opponents. Believe it or not, there are those of us who barely have enough time in the day to sneak in 1 turn a day. Guess that makes us casual users.
Anyway, there are several aspects that we don't even look at but once in a blue moon.
Frankly, I could have Halsey and Fletcher commanding the Kaga and Akagi right now and won't ever know it.

Now on the other hand, if one day Matrix/2by3 were to ever open the save game states, or at least create csv files for each side, then even the casual users would enter into the mix. Until that time, I guess as long as the leader (whomever it is) can point her into the wind ........
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami
ORIGINAL: Sonny

You got 8 games going and haven't sent in a save game with the problem?? I'd think you were a prime candidate to find such a bug.[:D][:D][:D]

Hi, You'd think if a bug was common I would have found one by now. My 8 games represent over 600 turns currently. If my opponenets are having bug problems they are keeping it to themselves.

Keep that head of yours in the sand. It's your primary mode of operation, anyway....
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mogami
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by mogami »

Hi, I keep my hand in the sand and you keep yours....where?

There are people here who would invent problems.


I bet I have reported more bugs then you have.
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
To me, this indicates that this is not just some random number generator; there is clearly SOMETHING in the play style of some people that triggers it (fairly frequently apparantly) and a lack of that something in the play style of other people that prevents it from occurring. I have no idea where to go with this, but if no one can manage to capture a good repeatable save, it may be the only way to ever get it fixed.

That is generally the case.

One of the problems we testers have is over the years we became pretty good at doing things the right way. It generally takes someone doing it the wrong way to find out that you *can* do it the wrong way and it *does* break something when you do.

No save, no fix. The three repeatable problems were fixed. The fact that there happens to be another that did not get fixed despite the large amount of whining simply points out that people do indeed play differently. Unless you can tell us how you play, we need a save showing how you play. It's really that simple.

Kinda hard to find a repeatable save if "it" happens on the first turn. Seems that another approach is necessary for this puppy.
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ZOOMIE1980
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I keep my hand in the sand and you keep yours....where?

There are people here who would invent problems.
Oh so now this never fixed bug now doesn't exist? This problem has been complained about off and on since day one. But since YOU don't ever see it in YOUR game, it means it is irrelevant.

Great notion of support! You're completely clueless.
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mogami
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by mogami »

Hi, It would be really great if you read entire threads instead of taking what I say out of context. Now go back and start over.
This bug needs a reapeatable save to fix. If I had one it would be fixed. But since I've not had it I can't provide the save....can you? Shut up.
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ZOOMIE1980
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, It would be really great if you read entire threads instead of taking what I say out of context. Now go back and start over.
This bug needs a reapeatable save to fix. If I had one it would be fixed. But since I've not had it I can't provide the save....can you? Shut up.

Dipsh!t, repeatable saves are NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. This bug is SIX MONTHS OLD. Fix it yourself you lazy slacker. Its YOUR job, not ours.

You people's notion of who's responsiblity it is to FIX software defects bears NO RESEMBLENCE to reality. Try joining reality.
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Red hots! Get your Red Hot's here! Cold beer! Biere froid![X(] This is almost as good as a ECHL hockey game![:D]
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ZOOMIE1980
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

I've NEVER understood why they need US to provide game saves before even looking at anything, even things that are not spot bugs! What keeps THEM from taking people's suggestions and attempting to duplicate these things on their own. It is THEIR JOB for CHRIST's SAKE!!!! NOt ours! I've seen a LOT of this leader thing in my games but it is not a big deal for me so I just replace the lost guy with a new one if I detect it and move on. BUt it is a near show stopper for many, it appears.

But then Mogami would have to take time away from his 8 concurrent PBEM games to actually WORK ON A BUG the way a PROFESSIONAL software engineer does it and that is WAY too much to expect, I guess!

Amazing.....simply amazing. I don;t know where anyone gets the notion that support here is good???? These people have no clue concerning support, quality or anything else. Imagine this kind of "support" on the software that manages your banking transactions!!!! "You'll have to send me a "save" of that $1000 ATM snafu before we'll look it....."
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dtravel
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Red hots! Get your Red Hot's here! Cold beer! Biere froid![X(] This is almost as good as a ECHL hockey game![:D]

Hey! Over here! Just let me put my torch and pitchfork down. I'll take two hot dogs.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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bstarr
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by bstarr »

This was supposed to be a friendly - I'll say it again - friendly march on matrix.

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mogami
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by mogami »

Hi, OK I should stop running WITP turns to try to duplicate a WITP bug that while people can describe it's effect they cannot tell the steps required to produce it nor can they get a save that reproduces it? I wonder how I would attempt to create such a bug other then by running WITP turns. And if people would read the thread before they started in they would find a post by me telling them that saves are not their job and that bugs are our job and then explaining why this particular bug still exists dispite it being reported early on.
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ZOOMIE1980
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

I ceased to be friendly with Mogami and Frag a LLOOONNGGG time ago. I don't intend to start now.
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK I should stop running WITP turns to try to duplicate a WITP bug that while people can describe it's effect they cannot tell the steps required to produce it nor can they get a save that reproduces it?

Yes. It's your JOB to do so. Figure it out.
pad152
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by pad152 »

There are too many leaders to track manually. I don't think the leader bug will ever be found waiting for the magic saved game.

If Matrix will release the saved game file format or a debug version that allows reading of the saved game data, I will write a program that checks the leader, status, and their location against multiple saved games. Then it's just a matter of playing the game and saving each turn, the program could then check and log each leader, location and status for each saved game.


Let me know if I can help[:)]
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: pad152

There are too many leaders to track manually. I don't think the leader bug will ever be found waiting for the magic saved game.

If Matrix will release the saved game file format or a debug version that allows reading of the saved game data, I will write a program that checks the leader, status, and their location against multiple saved games. Then it's just a matter of playing the game and saving each turn, the program could then check and log each leader, location and status for each saved game.


Let me know if I can help[:)]

This is the second time you have offered this.[&o] Seems like the way to go, internally or employing forum help like your offer. What's the problem?
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bstarr
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RE: March on Matrix! WITP Players Unite!

Post by bstarr »

I'm beginning to feel like a child who's seen his fourth birthday party turned into a drunken brawl.

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