ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Gamers can also use this forum to chat about any game related subject, news, rumours etc.

Moderator: maddog986

User avatar
Marc von Martial
Posts: 5292
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: Bonn, Germany
Contact:

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Marc von Martial »

ORIGINAL: wodin

My major gripe is lockpicks! Ive cleared out a fair few forts but many chests have been left alone as I run out of lockpicks real quick. I just cant see myself going through allthose areas again with a mass of lockpicks..yawn..

Actually that is what I really like, the lockpicking system. As it seems you need some training [;)]
User avatar
sol_invictus
Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Kentucky

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by sol_invictus »

Since you are at a low level you aren't missing much in the unopened chests; just a few coins, so don't worry about it. When you go into the Imperial City, be sure to search all the crates and barrels in the marketplace for some lockpicks that are laying about.
"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero
jungelsj_slith
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:51 am

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by jungelsj_slith »

ORIGINAL: wodin

My major gripe is lockpicks! Ive cleared out a fair few forts but many chests have been left alone as I run out of lockpicks real quick. I just cant see myself going through allthose areas again with a mass of lockpicks..yawn..


I really disliked the lockpick system at first as well, so frustrating. What helped me is when I started to pay attention to the uptake of each little piston. The ones that travel up slowly are the ones that will stay there longer. After I realized that and with a little practice, I now rarely lose a pick.

Bandits almost always have lockpicks on them, by the way.
User avatar
timtom
Posts: 1500
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:23 pm
Location: Aarhus, Denmark

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by timtom »

http://www.rpgcodex.com/

(Dives for nearest foxhole)

[:)]
Where's the Any key?

Image
User avatar
Marc von Martial
Posts: 5292
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: Bonn, Germany
Contact:

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Marc von Martial »

ORIGINAL: timtom

http://www.rpgcodex.com/

(Dives for nearest foxhole)

[:)]

No fear, I personally am also not really fond of the leveling system and how foes adapt to your current level. But I´m pretty sure this will either be adressed in a patch or through a mod. It is not a game breaker though.
Speedysteve
Posts: 15975
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Reading, England

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Speedysteve »

Hi guys,

Just received my copy in the post at work today. I'm going to fire this baby up tonight.

Just a thought. I'm going to update my graphics card drivers to the latest version before playing.

Any idea what the best website to get them for an ATI Radeon 9600 PRO would be?

Regards,

Steven
WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester
User avatar
Terminus
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Terminus »

www.ati.com

The official site might be a good place to start, eh?[;)]
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
User avatar
Marc von Martial
Posts: 5292
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: Bonn, Germany
Contact:

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Marc von Martial »

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Just received my copy in the post at work today. I'm going to fire this baby up tonight.

And read this, taken from the Oblivion forums:
-------------------------------------------
QUICK AND DIRTY OBLIVION PC SETTINGS GUIDE
-------------------------------------------
[v2.1]


Table of Contents:

1. Introduction

2. Revision History

3. Problems and possible fixes
a. First steps
b. Installation freezes and doesn't complete
c. Error message during installation
d. Error finding d3d*.dll
e. Stuttering - AMD dual cores
f. Stuttering - Hardware sound
g. Flickering, black or white textures
h. Terrible performance on GeForce FX cards

4. Performance tweaking
a. Basics
b. NVIDIA card Coolbits tweak (excellent)
c. Limiting draw distance
d. HDR
e. Specular distance

5. Noteable Oblivion.ini settings
a. bUseFaceGenHeads
b. uGridDistantTreeRange
c. uGridDistantCount
d. fGlobalTimeMultiplier
e. bForceReloadOnEssentialCharacterDeath
f. SIntroSequence
g. bAllowScriptedAutosave
h. uGridsToLoad + uNumDepthGrids
i. bUseWaterReflections* settings
j. bGrassPointLighting
k. bHealthBarShowing

6. Other tips
a. Ingame FOV
b. Remove the "Loading Area" message outdoors

7. Conclusion


------------------------------------------------
1. INTRODUCTION
------------------------------------------------

My name is Matt and I am a software programmer. I've hacked this small guide together in the
hopes of aiding people with their issues in running Oblivion, Bethesda's excellent but troubled
RPG. I guess it wouldn't be an Elder Scrolls game if it didn't have problems though, would it? (IMG:style_emoticons/2/smile.gif).
I'll continually update this guide as new information is discovered via the Oblivion forums or
through my own personal investigation.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS GUIDE IS UNOFFICIAL AND I CAN TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY FURTHER
ISSUES THAT MAY ARISE THROUGH ITS USE. ALTHOUGH I HAVE TESTED ALL OF THESE SOLUTIONS MYSELF,
I CANNOT GUARANTEE THE SAME RESULTS ON OTHER COMPUTERS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!


------------------------------------------------
2. REVISION HISTORY
------------------------------------------------

* v1.0: Initial release
* v1.1: Added HDR setting note, grammar fixes
* v1.2: Added revision history section and completion note to ini settings section
* v1.3: Added specular distance note and uGridsToLoad/uNumDepthGrids tip by austin
* v1.4: Added water reflection ini settings, Other tips section, healthbar and
grass point light settings, ingame FOV console command
* v1.5: Added a known fix for installation errors
* v1.6: Added a known fix for "freezing" installation problems
* v1.7: Added link to Bethesda's XP support page
* v1.8: Added the CoolBits driver tweak for NVIDIA cards by justice7
* v1.9: Removed the iFPSClamp setting, has side effects
* v2.0: Fixed the information for the "uGridsToLoad + uNumDepthGrids" settings
* v2.1: Added a tip for removing the "Loading Area" messsage when outdoors

------------------------------------------------
3. PROBLEMS AND POSSIBLE FIXES
------------------------------------------------

------
a. First steps

First, always make sure your video card drivers are up to date before proceeding. Next, make
sure your operating system has all the latest updates and service packs installed. Finally,
ensure your motherboard is also running on the latest drivers and BIOS. Consult the website
of your hardware's manufacturers for driver updates.

Also, before trying the following fixes, make sure there isn't already a FAQ about it on
Bethesda's website. Visit this URL for Windows XP support:
http://support.bethsoft.com/asp/faqs.as ... Windows+XP

------
b. Installation freezes and doesn't complete

If the installer freezes before it's able to finish, try this:

1. Close the installer.
2. Reboot.
3. Open the Oblivion DVD in explorer by opening "My Computer," right-clicking
on the drive that contains the DVD, and clicking "Explore."
4. Select everything with CTRL-A. Hit CTRL-C to copy.
5. Create an empty folder on your hard drive, for example C:\Temp.
6. Open this new folder, then hit CTRL-V to paste.
7. After the files have copied, run the "setup.exe" in the new folder manually. The game should
now properly install.
8. After installation finishes, delete your C:\Temp folder (or whatever you named it). It's
no longer needed.

Note that you'll need about 5 gigs of extra free space to do this.

------
c. Error message during installation

If you receive an InstallShield error during installation, follow these steps to install the
game properly:

1. Open your temp folder, this is located in:
"C:\Documents and Settings\{Your Windows Username}\Local Settings\Temp" where {Your Windows Username}
is the name you login to windows with.

2. Select everything with CTRL-A. Right-click on the selection and click "Delete." Confirm the
deletion, then empty your recycling bin.

3. Reboot.

4. After restarting, open the Oblivion DVD in explorer by opening "My Computer," right-clicking
on the drive that contains the DVD, and clicking "Explore." Then, double click on "setup.exe".
Oblivion should now install properly.

------
d. Error finding d3d*.dll

This means that you somehow skipped the directx installation when setting up the game. Download
and install the latest version of DirectX to fix this:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... layLang=en

------
e. Stuttering - AMD dual cores
(SKIP IF YOU DO NOT OWN AN AMD64 OR DUAL CORE PROCESSOR)

A common cause of "stuttering" or "lurching" with AMD dual core processors can be attributed
to incorrect values returned by the high resolution QueryPerformanceCounter() timing method
under certain conditions. To resolve this issue, follow these steps:

Start by installing the AMD processor driver:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/Tec ... 06,00.html

Next, install the XP dual core hotfix, making sure to follow the steps in the article for
editing the registry:
http://www.amdzone.com/modules.php?op=m ... e&sid=3964

------
f. Stuttering - Hardware sound

Some people have reported that disabling hardware sound manually can fix stuttering problems
related to ingame sound. To do this, open your Oblivion.ini, which can be found in this folder:
"My Documents\My Games\Oblivion"

Scroll down to the section marked "[Audio]".

Change this key:
bDSoundHWAcceleration=1
to:
bDSoundHWAcceleration=0

------
g. Flickering, black or white textures

A common cause for this is insufficient video memory. If you attempt to store more textures in
video memory than your card can handle, some textures will get dropped by the card and it will
result in video corruption. To possibly fix this issue, set your Texture Size setting in the
game to a lower setting than you currently have.

------
h. Terrible performance on GeForce FX cards

This is caused by the poor implementation of Shader Model 2.0 in NVidia's GeForce FX line of
cards. The only way to fix this really would be to force the game to run in PS 1.X mode,
which I'm not really sure how to do just yet. There is a setting called "Force1XShaders" in
Oblivion.ini, but enabling this on my computer causes me to hard lock. I would attempt it at
your own risk.


------------------------------------------------
4. PERFORMANCE TWEAKING
------------------------------------------------

------
a. Basics

The first place to start if you have poor performance is to lower video resolution. Dropping the
game to 800x600 or even 640x480 will offer better performance, at the cost of visual quality. However,
I've found that moving from 1024x768 to 800x600 created almost no noticeable difference in graphics
quality, and the GUI and menus are still very crisp and clear.

Second, drop texture resolution. If you have a 128MB or lower video card, don't try to run the game
at anything higher than MEDIUM. There will not be enough texture memory and problems such as the
ones mentioned above may occur.

Reduce other settings in the game's video menu. It helps to play with various settings and see what
effect (if any) they have on performance.

AA (Anti-Aliasing) also has a very large effect on performance. Disable it if you encounter strange
slowdowns in certain situations when the game otherwise runs normally, or if the game just doesn't
run well at all.

------
b. NVIDIA card Coolbits tweak

This is one of the greatest driver tweaks I have ever seen. At first, I couldn't believe my results.
But I ran my benchmarks over and over and came up with the same result; an increase to my average
FPS of 19. There is no noticeable drop in quality and no apparent side effects. I encourage
everyone to apply this tweak. It really is pretty unbelievable. Steps:

1. Download and install the latest NVIDIA ForceWare drivers.
2. Download and install the "Coolbits" registry tweak:
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=815
(To install, unzip then double-click the .reg file to apply the registry mod)
3. Go to Control Panel -> Display -> Settings tab -> Advanced -> GeForce XXXX (your card model)
4. Expand "Performance & Quality Settings"
5. Click on "Additional Direct3D Settings"
6. Change "Max Frames to render ahead" from 3 to 0.
7. Click "Apply" then "OK" to exit the settings page.

Start Oblivion and note the huge, huge difference in input responsiveness and framerate consistency.
(Huge thanks to justice7 from the Oblivion forums)

------
c. Limiting draw distance

Drawing distant objects is one of the most graphically intensive aspects of Oblivion. In Morrowind,
everything was fogged out at large distances, but in Oblivion this defaults to off. However, you can
still enable it through the game's Video menu by adjusting the "View Distance" slider. Drop it to one
notch below max and it will automatically enable distance fogging. I've found that this offers a huge,
HUGE boost to performance, but at the expense of being able to see at a greater distance.

------
d. HDR

HDR is a very graphics-intensive effect. Disabling this will most definitely increase your performance
by a sizeable margin. To change your HDR setting, go into the Video menu and uncheck the HDR box.

------
e. Specular distance

Setting the specular distance to 0 disables specular mapping, a shader effect that gives a "shine"
or crisp lighting look to textures. Some people like this look, others don't, but either way disabling
it will improve performance. To change this setting, go into the Video menu and decrease the Specular
Distance slider all the way to the bottom.


------------------------------------------------
5. NOTEABLE OBLIVION.INI SETTINGS
------------------------------------------------

To change these settings manually, open your Oblivion.ini, which can be found in this folder:
"My Documents\My Games\Oblivion". I'm still only about 10% of the way through testing all the ini
settings, so consider this section vastly incomplete!

------
a. bUseFaceGenHeads

Setting this to 0 makes everyone's head disappear! Funny maybe, but not really useful.

------
b. uGridDistantTreeRange

This changes the maximum distance at which trees are rendered. Setting this lower will improve performance
but draw trees at a shorter distance.

------
c. uGridDistantCount

This appears to change the maximum distance at which all non-terrain objects are rendered. Setting it lower
improves performance but will create a very bare-looking terrain.

------
d. fGlobalTimeMultiplier

This is the global time scale multiplier used by the game. Increasing this causes everything to move much
faster, decreasing it is like slow motion. I've actually gotten used to playing at 1.1, I like the slight
increase in game speed.

------
e. bForceReloadOnEssentialCharacterDeath

This will force the game to trigger a "game over" when a character essential to the storyline is killed.
Setting this to 0 makes it behave more like Morrowind, where you could kill essential characters and
still keep playing -- albeit without the main storyline.

------
f. SIntroSequence

This controls the movies that are played before the main menu loads. Clear this and the game will boot
up faster.

------
g. bAllowScriptedAutosave

This controls whether the game should autosave at preset scripted moments. There's no real reason to
disable it though unless you don't like autosaves.

------
h. uGridsToLoad + uNumDepthGrids

These two settings can be used to increase the tiling on distant textures to give the terrain a less
washed-out look. To do this, apply these changes:

Change:
uGridsToLoad=5
to:
uGridsToload=11

and change:
uNumDepthGrids=3
to:
uNumDepthGrids=1

Note that the first setting will cause some corruption of the water reflection. Changing uNumDepthGrids
from 3 to 1 will reduce the corruption, but not completely eliminate it.
(tip by austin from the Oblivion forums)

------
i. bUseWaterReflections* settings

By default, the water will only reflect terrain. To enable water reflection for other objects, like trees
or characters, apply these changes:

Change:
bUseWaterReflectionsMisc=0
bUseWaterReflectionsStatics=0
bUseWaterReflectionsTrees=0
bUseWaterReflectionsActors=0
to:
bUseWaterReflectionsMisc=1
bUseWaterReflectionsStatics=1
bUseWaterReflectionsTrees=1
bUseWaterReflectionsActors=1

------
j. bGrassPointLighting

Normally, Oblivion generates the lighting on grass using the average sum of the lights around it. This
is not as accurate as normal game lighting, because the entire grass will be lit the same. At the cost
of performance, you can enable high quality point lighting on grass with these changes:

Change:
bGrassPointLighting=0
to:
bGrassPointLighting=1

------
k. bHealthBarShowing

Although the circular meter around the crosshair can be used to show an enemy's health, enabling this
setting causes a more classical health bar to appear above the enemy's head. To enable health bars,
do this:

Change:
bHealthBarShowing=0
to:
bHealthBarShowing=1

(I love this setting!)

------------------------------------------------
6. OTHER TIPS
------------------------------------------------

------
a. Ingame FOV

FOV, or field of view, controls the viewing angle of the camera. The game defaults to 75 FOV, which can
be dizzying and even make people sick. To change the FOV ingame, open the console with the ` (tilde) key,
then type "FOV 90" or whatever you want your FOV to be. I use 90, it's a common setting for many games
and I prefer the way it looks to 75. Please note that you must do this every time you start the game,
it is not saved and the "FOV" setting in the ini is not the same thing.

------
b. Remove the "Loading Area" message outdoors

You can remove the annoying "Loading Area" message when travelling outdoors by following these steps:

1. Download and install the TES Construction Set:
http://static.bethsoft.com/Oblivion-Const-Set.exe
2. Start the program.
3. Go to File -> Data... and load up "Oblivion.esm"
4. Go to Gameplay -> Settings...
5. After the window opens, scroll down to the "sLoadingArea" setting and select it
6. In the "String Value" box, you will see the "Loading Area..." message.
7. Select the entire message and hit the space bar to fill it with an empty string.
8. Go to File -> Save
9. Enter a name for your new plugin, such as "NoLoadMessage"
10. Save the file. It will create a "NoLoadMessage.esp" plugin file.
11. Exit the Construction Set program.
12. The next time you start Oblivion, click on the "Data Files" menu from the launcher and enable
the checkbox next to your new plugin. You only have to do this once.
13. The loading message is now gone!


------------------------------------------------
7. CONCLUSION
------------------------------------------------

As with all Elder Scrolls games, Oblivion is touchy out of the box. It crashes often, and there are
many minor bugs that disrupt the gameplay. It also very hard on performance. If this guide hasn't
helped you, I'd encourage you to look forward to future patches for the game, which in the past have
been released quickly and usually resolve most of the launch issues. If you have a verified fix for
a specific issue that you'd like me to add to this guide, or information on what an Oblivion.ini
setting does, feel free to email me and I'll add it.
User avatar
Terminus
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Terminus »

Thanks for that guide, Marc. That settles it for me; I won't be buying Oblivion. I still remember the horror that was Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall and how unstable it was. Guess Bethesda hasn't learned anything in the intervening years... [:(]
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
Speedysteve
Posts: 15975
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Reading, England

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Speedysteve »

T.....thanks for your help and sarcasm as per norm.

Expect a 50/42incher into your room pretty soon........[:'(]

Thanks Marc [8D]
WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester
User avatar
Marc von Martial
Posts: 5292
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: Bonn, Germany
Contact:

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Marc von Martial »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Thanks for that guide, Marc. That settles it for me; I won't be buying Oblivion. I still remember the horror that was Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall and how unstable it was. Guess Bethesda hasn't learned anything in the intervening years... [:(]

The game runs like a charm and 100% stable for me.

Most of the stuff in the guide is "common sense" anyway. The guide above is very helpfull if you want to get the biggest graphic experience for your hardware it is not ment to say this game does not run and you must apply these changes to make it work. The "Conclusion" is over the line IMHO.

It is ment for fine tuning it so get all the bells and whistles even with a medium setup.

I for example run around with the high texture settings using HDR light and shadows galore. Even it is sayed that this experience would be impossible with my system [;)]


As a digital artist I tip my hat to the graphic experience and immersion that Oblivion has. It is mindblowing. Especially when you fight the bad guys of the Dark Lord in the destroyed cities.
User avatar
Marc von Martial
Posts: 5292
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: Bonn, Germany
Contact:

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Marc von Martial »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Thanks for that guide, Marc. That settles it for me; I won't be buying Oblivion. I still remember the horror that was Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall and how unstable it was. Guess Bethesda hasn't learned anything in the intervening years... [:(]

Oh and as a sidenote. I have done a lot of tech support in the past and almost 90% of "performance issues" and "CTDs" could be tracked down to systems that were not running recent drivers or were in a bad state at all.

It is like buying a car but never change the oil and tires, then complain it ain`t running 250km/h on a german Autobahn [;)]
User avatar
Terminus
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: Speedy

T.....thanks for your help and sarcasm as per norm.

Expect a 50/42incher into your room pretty soon........[:'(]

Thanks Marc [8D]

Overselling yourself again, eh? Tsktsktsk...[:'(]
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
User avatar
Terminus
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Oh and as a sidenote. I have done a lot of tech support in the past and almost 90% of "performance issues" and "CTDs" could be tracked down to systems that were not running recent drivers or were in a bad state at all.

It is like buying a car but never change the oil and tires, then complain it ain`t running 250km/h on a german Autobahn [;)]

This is true, of course... I think I'll stick with another recently released Bethesda game, though...
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
Speedysteve
Posts: 15975
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Reading, England

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Speedysteve »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Speedy

T.....thanks for your help and sarcasm as per norm.

Expect a 50/42incher into your room pretty soon........[:'(]

Thanks Marc [8D]

Overselling yourself again, eh? Tsktsktsk...[:'(]

The misses knows it [;)][:'(]

Nonetheless T. You are going to get smitted at Moscow in SP
WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester
User avatar
Terminus
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Terminus »

Whatever... Bring it, little squeaky-voiced girlie-man from Reading...
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
Speedysteve
Posts: 15975
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Reading, England

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Speedysteve »

Wow. What a game.

Even on my hunk of junk it looks pretty good at medium detail levels.

I could spend months on this baby....
WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester
User avatar
TheHellPatrol
Posts: 1588
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:41 pm

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by TheHellPatrol »

I got it as an early birthday present from my Wife, all i can say is OMG! Runs smooth as silk, maxed out all but AA, with my new 6800GT[&o].
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
Terminus
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by Terminus »

How fast is your PC?
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
User avatar
TheHellPatrol
Posts: 1588
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:41 pm

RE: ELDER SCROLLS IV: OBLIVION "GOLD"

Post by TheHellPatrol »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

How fast is your PC?
Alienware P4 2.8 GHZ 1GB Ram with GeForce 6800GT(new).
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”