true story about US Navy

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Dec 21, 2001 3:33 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
There we go Ed.
And America wants free trade?

[Sigh] .... That wasn't my point, Muzrub, I was trying to show that you had already escalated this little argument to a mild personal attack by suggesting your opposition is in an abnormal state of mind, all because of your remark about agricultural subsidies. As best as I can honestly remember, I've never accused someone of being insane, or even just a little paranoid, during an argument, at least not here (I've gotten a lot nastier elsewhere), and I can't see escalating an argument like that when the subject of debate is agricultural subsidies. Is that really worth *us* fighting over? Let our governments fight over that, we can surely come up with more emotional, engaging, important things to argue about, can't we?

Subsidies wasn't the real issue anyway, it was just the content of an assertion set forth in a way I've seen many times before, yes, the "tactic", that is what I objected to, and you answered my objection by questioning my sanity in a cute little way. Definitely extra points for cuteness. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> No matter how mild though, if you're really trying to stop an argument before it gets started, its a good idea not to claim your opposition is nuts, even a little nuts, because they objected to something you said, that generally doesn't help.

You also contradicted yourself, as you clearly did decide to pursue the subsidies argument with a direct and detailed response when 2 posts ago you said you didn't want to pursue it. Again, we're back to that tactic, something I've seen many times, like I said, and in so many of those cases the author ends up wanting to pursue it after all. If you are willing to argue about it, fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't make the cute remark about about not wanting to pursue it after bringing it up. That's the kind of tactic people use to tweak their opponent's nose when they really do want to keep an argument going, or start an entirely brand new one. Unfortunately, right or wrong, good or bad, I'm the kind of person who goes into skirmish mode when that tactic is used on me. I'm partly responsible for the length of this thread, I know, but not totally responsible, paranoid or not.

The only point I would have made about subsidies was all nations have agricultural subsidies, its a matter of degrees and specific products. Europe, and France in particular, subsidize their farmers much more than the US does. US farmers are less subsidized than most, except for sugar farmers who have a nice scam going on at the expense of the American taxpayer. Its an issue I've heard about at least twice. So as far as that would-be argument goes, I agree with you. America is doing some double-talk on this score.

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Dec 21, 2001 4:13 pm

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:

Ed

What next?

When Saddam was reported to have gassed thousands
....

I'm glad to see Aussies keeping track of UK and US government committees on foriegn affairs but what the heck does this have to do with the argument I'm having with Muzrub?

As for "factual statements", you claimed afterwards it was an educational type message:

If mistakes are pointed out and not forgotten then they will not happen again. It's because i 'give a damn' about the west and it's acts that i recite history. not any childish desire to 'bash' any specific nation.

However, your post was in response to something Czerpac said:

We had so many jokes about soviet army and navy so one about US doesnt hurt, does it?

Your post thats under question here was a response to the above, you even quoted the above at the start of your post, and following that you began with:

Czerpac

Heres one about the US military.

Those are factual statements Loki, you made them. Others are free to interprete their own way, but your post began with the claim it was a "joke", even though there wasn't anything funny in it. Indeed, you brought up some very sobering things instead of humor. Afterwards, you claim its merely educational and you're trying to prevent the West from making more mistakes in the future, but if that was your intent, why begin by claiming its a joke? Furthermore, why is it exclusively aimed at the US, when you claimed you were speaking of the West? In fact, you clearly contradict yourself on that score because you started out by saying its a joke on the *US* military, you never mentioned any other country, not one. Quote some factual statements of yours from that post that contradict the evidence I just laid out. Keep digging that hole deeper.

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Dec 21, 2001 7:28 pm

[Sigh] .... That wasn't my point, Muzrub, I was trying to show that you had already escalated this little argument to a mild personal attack by suggesting your opposition is in an abnormal state of mind, all because of your remark about agricultural subsidies. As best as I can honestly remember, I've never accused someone of being insane, or even just a little paranoid, during an argument, at least not here (I've gotten a lot nastier elsewhere), and I can't see escalating an argument like that when the subject of debate is agricultural subsidies. Is that really worth *us* fighting over? Let our governments fight over that, we can surely come up with more emotional, engaging, important things to argue about, can't we?

Subsidies wasn't the real issue anyway, it was just the content of an assertion set forth in a way I've seen many times before, yes, the "tactic", that is what I objected to, and you answered my objection by questioning my sanity in a cute little way. Definitely extra points for cuteness. No matter how mild though, if you're really trying to stop an argument before it gets started, its a good idea not to claim your opposition is nuts, even a little nuts, because they objected to something you said, that generally doesn't help.

You also contradicted yourself, as you clearly did decide to pursue the subsidies argument with a direct and detailed response when 2 posts ago you said you didn't want to pursue it. Again, we're back to that tactic, something I've seen many times, like I said, and in so many of those cases the author ends up wanting to pursue it after all. If you are willing to argue about it, fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't make the cute remark about about not wanting to pursue it after bringing it up. That's the kind of tactic people use to tweak their opponent's nose when they really do want to keep an argument going, or start an entirely brand new one. Unfortunately, right or wrong, good or bad, I'm the kind of person who goes into skirmish mode when that tactic is used on me. I'm partly responsible for the length of this thread, I know, but not totally responsible, paranoid or not.

The only point I would have made about subsidies was all nations have agricultural subsidies, its a matter of degrees and specific products. Europe, and France in particular, subsidize their farmers much more than the US does. US farmers are less subsidized than most, except for sugar farmers who have a nice scam going on at the expense of the American taxpayer. Its an issue I've heard about at least twice. So as far as that would-be argument goes, I agree with you. America is doing some double-talk on this score.

and I can't see escalating an argument like that when the subject of debate is agricultural subsidies. Is that really worth *us* fighting over? Let our governments fight over that, we can surely come up with more emotional, engaging, important things to argue about, can't we?

I agree.
It's not worth fighting over.
Thats why I chose not to pursue the matter.
But then this happened!

I love that tactic! Bring it up out of the blue, state your position, then claim you don't want to pursue it. Ok, you're somewhat wrong, but I won't pursue it either.

Now I said what I said on subsidies and didnt contiue ( I really could'nt be bothered typing about it. That's the real reason why I didnt pursue the matter) and then you used the tactic that you have recently complained about. So I fired back.
I think both of us were not truely understanding the other. You thought I was attempting to flame and I thought you were being a smartarse.
Understandable.

Unfortunately, right or wrong, good or bad, I'm the kind of person who goes into skirmish mode when that tactic is used on me.

Same here.

US farmers are less subsidized than most, except for sugar farmers who have a nice scam going on at the expense of the American taxpayer.

Lets just disagree about this.

You also contradicted yourself, as you clearly did decide to pursue the subsidies argument with a direct and detailed response when 2 posts ago you said you didn't want to pursue it.

I believe we both done that!

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Dec 22, 2001 6:29 am

Ed

"Agricultural subsidies? Insane? What's next?"

I mearly fullfilled an expectation.
----------------------------

If you find the statements informative that is well and good.

The rest of the post is a personal attack.
"You keep digging the hole deeper"...And basically you are saying that i was lying.
I thought this was an arguement and not a flame war?
I have not said a word about your motivations.
(hmmmm)

I am sympathic to the situation as many Americans see it. Yes many criticise the US because they are the tall poppy or just from pure envy.

However there is also another far more important reason.
Over the years i have run into many individuals who would claim left leanings and also people who are simply idealists.
The common underlying theme behind their criticism of the US was dissapointment. What they really said(and many times admitted openly latter)was that they considered the US (It's freedoms written into the constitution) as the great hope of mankind.
When The US Govt and corporations mock the Constitution with acts that go against its very
words, as in the factual statements i posted, it in effect crushes hope.

And Ed, i feel the same way. I could easily post hundreds of exaples of injustice and stupidity regarding other nations but .....
I DO NOT EXPECT ANY BETTER FROM THEM.
If the Rwandan Go'vt sanctions bloodshed it is part of a human agenda of fear and self interest. The same goes for Stalin killing so many of his own people.
But when thousands die in Bhopal India because Union Carbide(US) dos'nt give a damn about people.
Or UK nad US agendas lead to the sacking of a fairly elected Aust Govnt.
These acts, carried out by the very nation that i have alligned my hopes for human freedom with, cause great anguish.

You have read most of the posts i have made. This thread is the first time ever that i have mentioned US mistakes. No matter what motivation 'you' think i posted them with what is true for me is that no matter the form they take they are posted for one reason only. That is, i consider the US constitution as one of the greatest works of mankind and one of it's greatest hopes. The only statements of error i post are speciffic to the US and shall remain so for that very reason.

I think 'many' Americans would prefer it if they were being criticised for being the 'tall poppy' or 'envy'.
Because it would pain them to know that much of the criticism comes from those who have more respect for the ideals behind their own constitution than they do.

Many of it's maxims are being forgotten and how else to fight this than to point out specific acts of transgression as examples.

Nick

PS. I know nothing about agricultural susidies.
Maybe Muzz posts on this topic because he too expects better and has chosen this specific topic to point out principles of 'fair play' between allied nations.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Dec 22, 2001 4:37 pm

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
I have not said a word about your motivations.
(hmmmm)

I haven't written an Aussie-bashing post.

....
Because it would pain them to know that much of the criticism comes from those who have more respect for the ideals behind their own constitution than they do.
....

You expect more from the US and its citizens because of its position in the world, but find Americans don't measure up. Americans turn out to be no better than anyone else, perhaps even worse, when put under the pressure we get from the rest of the world. It sucks don't it? You think you're disappointed? You have no idea how I've been disappointed by my own country's actions, present and past. It does suck. Welcome to the Real World(tm), Loki.

All of this is fine, and if it weren't a football Saturday I might pursue this, not necessarily as an argument but as a debate, but I need to go to sleep soon, and repeating myself over and over doesn't seem to work here, because as you keep ignoring repeatedly, our dispute didn't start with your first post, it started with the second one. You know, the belated innocent description you tried to give your first post in your second one, despite the "here's one about the US military" introduction you used which contradicts your description. THAT is what I responded to. So just like Muzrub, who wants to argue about subsidies, when what I objected to was the method he used to bring the subject up, not the subject itself, you want to argue about a dissapointing America, when your original post was clearly just a simple attack, a US bashing post, which you initially call a "joke" to try to sneak it into this thread even though it completely lacks any humor. So whatever you believe on this issue is IRRELEVENT to me for now, because an honest debate or discussion about this was not your objective in writing that first post. When you're ready to admit what the first post really was, then we can talk about how disappointing America is, otherwise, I'm done repeating myself.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Dec 22, 2001 4:54 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
I agree.
It's not worth fighting over.
Thats why I chose not to pursue the matter.
But then this happened!

I love that tactic! Bring it up out of the blue, state your position, then claim you don't want to pursue it. Ok, you're somewhat wrong, but I won't pursue it either.

Now I said what I said on subsidies and didnt contiue ( I really could'nt be bothered typing about it. That's the real reason why I didnt pursue the matter) and then you used the tactic that you have recently complained about. So I fired back.

You left out the smileys I put in that statement to show it wasn't a serious question on subsidies, it was a sarcastic reply to your use of the I-won't-pursue-it-after-bringing-it-up tactic. I responded with the Ok-I'll-disagree-but-won't-pursue-it-either tactic. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> So we're both guilty of using a tactic, fair enough?

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Sat Dec 22, 2001 5:03 pm

Hey guys battle it out in a game instead.

merry christmas to you all!

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Sat Dec 22, 2001 5:10 pm

You left out the smileys I put in that statement to show it wasn't a serious question on subsidies, it was a sarcastic reply to your use of the I-won't-pursue-it-after-bringing-it-up tactic. I responded with the Ok-I'll-disagree-but-won't-pursue-it-either tactic. So we're both guilty of using a tactic, fair enough?

Yeah........

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Sat Dec 22, 2001 9:10 pm

I liked the joke.
Merry Christmas all and watch out for lighthouses.

czerpak · Post by **czerpak** » Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:53 pm

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
I liked the joke.
Merry Christmas all and watch out for lighthouses.

Thanks God there are no lighthouses in WiR ...

Many games and debates in 2002 to all.
Maciej

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:36 pm

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
I liked the joke.
Merry Christmas all and watch out for lighthouses.

The first joke in the thread, the lighthouse thing from Czerpak, wasn't the problem. I liked it too, it was funny.

BrickReid · Post by **BrickReid** » Tue Jan 01, 2002 12:48 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
Unfortunately, some individials gave in to the temptation to use this thread as cover for a few cheap shots at the US.

Who are these individuals.

As for the US Ed- The USA firmly places itself in the public (international) arena and as such its going to recieve criticism and at times praise.

I for one have watched over the last 10 years Australian culture suffer at the hands American companies and popular 'American' culture.
This 'friendly' invasion has created anti US sentiment here and over seas- of course non violent (in Asutralia). Our countries have a very good relationship as do the vast majority of people from both of our nations.

Nobody here is attacking you or any other hard working 'average' American. But the attitude of American business and at times its government is another issue or is it really the issue at hand?

I dont have a problem with Americans who believe in their way of life or in the idea that is democracy. But the United States is not the only nation to have such feelings about their country. We here across the other side of the globe or in other nations feel the same about our lands.
But we do not package it, slap a label on it and ship it out across the world as the only way of life.

You can take this as a flame post if you wish- but its not. How you reply, if you bother is entirely up to you Ed.

Now time for a joke:

Q. How can you tell if your sperm count is high?

A. If your missus has to chew before swallowing.

Hope you enjoyed it........cya

I really want to laugh at how so many people blame US business for all the erosion of their country's culture. As if they had the power to come in and impose their will. Doesn't ANYBODY (too many americans too) accept personal responsibility anymore? Are not the "locals", who purchase US products, to blame for casting aside their own culture and embracing American products and ideals?

American culture has HUGE failures, though I'll not name them so as to deny ammo to the hateful. But, it is my belief that so many cultures are being severely altered by US business and ideals because those cultures offer so little to their people. Little happiness, little security, little oportunity, and little hope. As pathetic as our own slums, poverty, racism, materialism, and godlessness are, we still offer more to many than they can expect at home. Further, they have the benefit of picking and choosing those cultural traits that they desire and need not take the bad too (although their own cultures are often saturated with their own pathetic existences).

I named not names in which cultures I speak. If you are offended, I suggest you take a look at yourself to see what failing of your own culture makes you think you may fit into the category of those I speak.

btw: If businesses in your country, Muzrub, were able to "...package it, slap a label on it and ship it out across the world....", they undoubtedly would. And make a tidy profit to boot. Don't let envy blind you.

BrickReid · Post by **BrickReid** » Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:08 pm

Just a last comment. I've been away from the forum for awhile and so I've just read this whole thread tonight. The above post was done as soon as I read the post I responded to from Muzrub and I had not read the rest of the posts in the thread. Suffice it to say that I now believe several of you are howling mad men with far too much free time on your hands to be writing so many essays to one another. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Now for a more serious comment: This kind of forum will never change the mind of those who have slammed the doors to their minds and cling mightily to their own self-righteous wisdom. Better to cast them adrift and join an outreach penpal program or something to help a young person keep from nurturing their ignorance into hatreds fed by rationalizations and selective listening. Can I get a "Hail Yeah!"? (p.s. I crack myself up.) :0

shane056 · Post by **shane056** » Tue Jan 01, 2002 4:41 pm

G'Day all.. Hmmm an interesting thread, and the jokes are good <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> For me though my exposure to the US navy is a memorable one, with one experience of many during my nine years of service with the Royal Australian Navy (RAN), was the week+ I spent onboard the USS Ashtabula (AO-51) an oiler, as part of a familiarisation transfer, between ships of the joint RAN/US task force, operating off the west coast of Australia during the late seventies, when I was currently posted onboard HMAS Stalwart, with this transfer being done at sea by Helo, a thrilling experience, especially being winched down...

This without a doubt exposed me, in some measure to the differences that existed in both our navies, at that time, which in my opinion was due to, the inherrent differences in discipline, culture and education, prevailing then. One of the big differences being, that our ships are wet and the US navy ships are dry, so the american sailors who were transfered over to our ships, especially the ones transferred to my ship Stalwart, did not want to return when we finally berthed alongside at Fremantle, resulting in them having to be escorted reluctantly back to their own dry ships. They LOVED our nightly beer issues...

Whilst onboard Ashtabula, the american sailors were friendly, and tolerant of my aussie acent, though I never thought that some of the pre-conceived notions that aussies have and that are circulated around the RAN fleet about the US navy would in some ways be confirmed to me onboard Ashtabula...

It was a real eye opener for me, though some of the events and situations that occured, in the week+ that I was onboard Ashtabula, considering we were on an oiler, made some of the time spent on her, a bit un-nerving... These are stories for another time, though in todays politically correct world they would be to politically incorrect to be told, so probably they would be best, left unsaid. I enjoyed my runs ashore with the US navy sailors, they were good times, with good people... Ahhh the memories ...Shane

Ps.. God bless both Australia and America as they are both very generous nations...

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Wed Jan 02, 2002 5:09 am

Originally posted by BrickReid:

Now for a more serious comment: This kind of forum will never change the mind of those who have slammed the doors to their minds and cling mightily to their own self-righteous wisdom. Better to cast them adrift and join an outreach penpal program or something to help a young person keep from nurturing their ignorance into 'hatreds' fed by rationalizations and selective listening. Can I get a "Hail Yeah!"? (p.s. I crack myself up.) :0

BrickReid

HoHo, such an abused tactic.
The last word of last words. (from on high) <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

What wisdom can i pass on to my now grown children and other young people?. The one at the bottom of the page is a timeless truth.

(and applicable to the thread)

Nick

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Jan 02, 2002 10:59 am

Originally posted by BrickReid:
Now for a more serious comment: This kind of forum will never change the mind of those who have slammed the doors to their minds and cling mightily to their own self-righteous wisdom. Better to cast them adrift and join an outreach penpal program or something to help a young person keep from nurturing their ignorance into hatreds fed by rationalizations and selective listening.

I'm not sure about this. If you were speaking of the ArtWar forum you'd be absolutely right. That forum is a place for lots of folks to pontificate and launch attacks on others they dislike. Everybody's positions are set in stone over there. Its a verbal combat forum, nothing more. This forum is different though. Most people here aren't interested in arguments like the one that occurred, they are here because of WIR. The motivations involved then are vastly different, this kind of thread is actually very rare here, and I believe you can change another's mind here if you stay polite, avoid the temptation to launch easy attacks or cheap shots, and stick to facts and/or logic as best you can as your method of persuasion.

And you're right, I do have too much time on my hands, but you're too late with the "Madman" label, because I've already been found guilty here of having a mental defect. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Wed Jan 02, 2002 3:02 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

I'm not sure about this. If you were speaking of the ArtWar forum you'd be absolutely right. That forum is a place for lots of folks to pontificate and launch attacks on others they dislike. Everybody's positions are set in stone over there. Its a verbal combat forum, nothing more. This forum is different though. Most people here aren't interested in arguments like the one that occurred, they are here because of WIR. The motivations involved then are vastly different, this kind of thread is actually very rare here, and I believe you can change another's mind here if you stay polite, avoid the temptation to launch easy attacks or cheap shots, and stick to facts and/or logic as best you can as your method of persuasion.

And you're right, I do have too much time on my hands, but you're too late with the "Madman" label, because I've already been found guilty here of having a mental defect. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Ed

I second that.

Shall we agree to disagree and move on?

Nick. aka Loki the troglodyte

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Jan 03, 2002 9:47 am

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:

Ed

I second that.

Shall we agree to disagree and move on?

Nick. aka Loki the troglodyte

troglodyte! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

No problem, Loki, lets move on. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:11 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

troglodyte! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

No problem, Loki, lets move on. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Ed

Thank you, it is good to know that someone as stubborn as i am is also as generous.

Nick

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Sat Jan 05, 2002 4:32 pm

I really want to laugh at how so many people blame US business for all the erosion of their country's culture. As if they had the power to come in and impose their will. Doesn't ANYBODY (too many americans too) accept personal responsibility anymore? Are not the "locals", who purchase US products, to blame for casting aside their own culture and embracing American products and ideals?

American culture has HUGE failures, though I'll not name them so as to deny ammo to the hateful. But, it is my belief that so many cultures are being severely altered by US business and ideals because those cultures offer so little to their people. Little happiness, little security, little oportunity, and little hope. As pathetic as our own slums, poverty, racism, materialism, and godlessness are, we still offer more to many than they can expect at home. Further, they have the benefit of picking and choosing those cultural traits that they desire and need not take the bad too (although their own cultures are often saturated with their own pathetic existences).

I named not names in which cultures I speak. If you are offended, I suggest you take a look at yourself to see what failing of your own culture makes you think you may fit into the category of those I speak.

btw: If businesses in your country, Muzrub, were able to "...package it, slap a label on it and ship it out across the world....", they undoubtedly would. And make a tidy profit to boot. Don't let envy blind you.

I really want to laugh at how so many people blame US business for all the erosion of their country's culture

Laugh all you want it's a fact!

As if they had the power to come in and impose their will.

Actually they do! It's called advertising.

Doesn't ANYBODY (too many americans too) accept personal responsibility anymore? Are not the "locals", who purchase US products, to blame for casting aside their own culture and embracing American products and ideals?

We'll the US companies are head office- so to speak and us such many local products that were Australian are now owned by US companies and as such our basic brands are now foreign owned! You see foreign companies pick the most popular brands and as such companies to buy.
But we try not to embrace your ideals- god forgive us if we did!

American culture has HUGE failures, though I'll not name them so as to deny ammo to the hateful

I shall also ignore that so as to not start a flame war!

But, it is my belief that so many cultures are being severely altered by US business and ideals because those cultures offer so little to their people.

Your belief is wrong! its business.

Little happiness, little security, little oportunity, and little hope. As pathetic as our own slums, poverty, racism, materialism, and godlessness are, we still offer more to many than they can expect at home.

You make the rest of the world seem so 3rd world! How typical.

Further, they have the benefit of picking and choosing those cultural traits that they desire and need not take the bad too (although their own cultures are often saturated with their own pathetic existences).

Wrong again- you se the bad are the most exported ie Brittny Spears! and other crap manufactured music icons.

As for the "saturated with their own pathetic existences" part. I have another reason to dislike your people!

I named not names in which cultures I speak. If you are offended, I suggest you take a look at yourself to see what failing of your own culture makes you think you may fit into the category of those I speak.

Maybe its time to look at your own arrogance and foolishness! What gives you the right to believe you have the greatest nation on earth? your ICBM's in that case you and your nation are the greatest threat!

btw: If businesses in your country, Muzrub, were able to "...package it, slap a label on it and ship it out across the world....", they undoubtedly would. And make a tidy profit to boot. Don't let envy blind you.

My GOD! It's not envy. But you are another example of an American who has misplaced his true worth to the world!