Servere Issues - Aircraft Preformance?

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

ORIGINAL: Apollo11(i.e. the attacked and alarmed target aircraft can use it's maneuverability to quite easily outmaneuver fast but not very maneuverable diving attacker)!

That is not "universally" accurate. At high airspeeds, the Zeke could not outmaneuver allied a.c. regardless of whether or not the Japanese pilot was aware that he was being attacked.

One other random thought to consider here,
Even if the Zero was "more maneuverable" under these circumstances (being dived on from above by 8000') - at several hundred yards away...the 'greater maneuverability' would equate to very little extra movement in a gunsight.
That would not be enough to make much difference - as say compared to trying to follow a plane closely from behind, where every extra bit of movement is greater proportional movement in your sight picture...if you follow what I am saying.

[Panther Bait]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That is incorrect. See above. Boom and zoom is not the same thing as "getting the bounce." At high speed, a P-40 could overtake or, if-necessary, outrun a zero in level flight, and at IAS above 330 mph the P-40 could out-turn a Zero. It could, at any tactical speed, out roll a zero.

While it's true a P-40 at 330 mph could out turn a Zero also moving 330 mph, it would be very different if a diving P-40 at 330 mph tries to turn inside a Zero going 200 mph. Of course, the P-40 can continue the dive and escape and the Zero will have little chance to follow or even shoot, but a slow moving Zero could probably evade a diving P-40 as long as he knew the P-40 is coming.

As an example there are plenty of stories from the Burma theater of Oscars (very similar to Zeros and if anything more manueverable at slower speeds) that were virtually unhittable when flown by a good pilot. The Oscar wasn't a danger, but could evade at will, even against multiple enemies, as long as he wanted (or had fuel remaining).

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Diving aircraft only have more energy because they can "convert" their speed build from dive - the maneuverability is something completely different...

This isn;t about diving energy. It's about maneuverability. At speeds in excess of 330 mph the P-40 could turn inside a Zero, could make a 180 degree arc faster than a Zero, and could (at airspeeds above 280) outroll a Zero. The Zero was not under all circumstances always the more maneuverable airplane. At IAS above 370 mph, the Zero flew like a brick. A zero diving at 370 trying to tag a PBY lumbering along at 200 would have a difficult time maneuvering with the PBY if the Catalina driver decided to try to roll out of the line of fire.

but if attacked aircraft is aware of danger and more maneuverable the "boom and zoom" is ineffective

That is incorrect. See above. Boom and zoom is not the same thing as "getting the bounce." At high speed, a P-40 could overtake or, if-necessary, outrun a zero in level flight, and at IAS above 330 mph the P-40 could out-turn a Zero. It could, at any tactical speed, out roll a zero.

At high speed, even an F4F could turn with a Zero. Many veteran Japanese pilots died over Guadalcanal because they incorrectly assumed that a following F4F could never stay with them long enough in maneuvers to inflict a lethal dose. They were wrong. These deaths had nothing to do with "surprise" or "out of the sun" or even "boom and zoom." It had to do with the fact that the Zero was increasingly sluggish with increasing airspeeds. Allied a.c. did not have that problem in general.

(i.e. the attacked and alarmed target aircraft can use it's maneuverability to quite easily outmaneuver fast but not very maneuverable diving attacker)!

That is not "universally" accurate. At high airspeeds, the Zeke could not outmaneuver allied a.c. regardless of whether or not the Japanese pilot was aware that he was being attacked.

I think we misunderstood... I was talking about generic situation when one aircraft is maneuvering in horizontal plane using best speed for it MAX maneuver (in our case Zero) and one attacking from above with altitude and speed advantage (in our case P-40)...

Thus, in Elf's example, the attacked Zero could defeat the "boom and zoom" P-40 by executing the turn inside maneuver (best maneuver for such position) - also Zero would be flying horizontally at best speed for it's highest maneuverability!

This is, of course, only possible if attacked aircraft is aware of danger and acts accordingly (in most cases "boom and zoom" victims in WWII on all sides never knew what hit them)... [;)]

BTW, if we exchange Zero for, let's say, Sopwith Camel or Fokker of WWI you would still have the same situation (albeit the Sopwith Camel and/or Fokker would have 0% chance of ever harming attacker but they could evade almost forever)... [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Big B]

Leo, How on earth is a plane turning horizontally going to evade an attack from above?

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Thus, in Elf's example, the attacked Zero could defeat the "boom and zoom" P-40 by executing the turn inside maneuver (best maneuver for such position) - also Zero would be flying horizontally at best speed for it's highest maneuverability!

Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Big B

Leo, How on earth is a plane turning horizontally going to evade an attack from above?

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Thus, in Elf's example, the attacked Zero could defeat the "boom and zoom" P-40 by executing the turn inside maneuver (best maneuver for such position) - also Zero would be flying horizontally at best speed for it's highest maneuverability!

Brian, what you draw is exactly what is hard to do... [;)]

The simple turning inside of attacking diving enemy can defeat his attack - the diving aircraft at high speed in vertical plane simply can't position himself to aim his armament to maneuvering defending aircraft in horizontal plane!


Leo "Apollo11"

[FeurerKrieg]

I'll go with Leo on this one. Playing Battleground Europe, nothing is sweeter than bouncing an enemy from above and blasting them before they even know what his them. But, with most aircraft, coming in on that dive at high speed means you are just not going to be able to turn with the slower aircraft on the first pass. Nice thing about boom and zoom of course, is that you have the energy to trade in to get altitude again, and you can come back around with a tactical energy advantage.

BUT - on that first pass - it is hard to keep a horizontally turning target in your sites. Not impossible, but difficult. In many planes, more difficult than if you yourself were traveling slower and could just turn with them. But then it becomes about which plane can turn better, and often, the Japan plane could turn better at lower speed.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The higher natural MVR of the Zeke helps offset the modified MVR of the P-40 From an Altitude advantage

Will AE change the maneuverabilities of a.c. based on something like their current airspeeds? That P-40 in your example diving from a substantial height advantage would certainly be much more maneuverable than any Zeke that tried to keep up with the P-40, should the P-40 do a shoot and scoot. This has implications for "follow up combat rounds" after the initial engagement.

Excellent question. Yes. But not in so many words. Simply Airspeed, or the delta between two aircraft DOES modify maneuver in the instantaneous fashion you describe. Using the above example...

The P-40 Starts at 23k where it MVRs with an 11. But it enjoys an 8k' Altitude advantage so MVR is increased to 19. A 10 MPH speed advantage (not shown above) isn't enough to reduce the Zeroes MVR, so the Zeke remains at its natural 15k' MVR 33. The Zero pilot is a Veteran at 91 EXP. What you cannot see is how end EXP favors the Japanese pilot due to the MVR differential. EXP is heavily modified in the final tally when MOR, FAT, DISR, MVR etc are considered.

Had the above been greater than 10 mph the MVR of the Zero would have been factored by a divisor. Essentially the greater the DELTA the larger the divisor and therefore the more neutralized a slow plane is vs. one that keeps it's speed up. The upper limit of this factor can be as much as half the slower A/Cs Natural MVR rating for the Altitude band in question.

An instantaneous Speed check based on Pilot EXP and A/C topspeed is used to determine an energy state for each opponent when Combat is being resolved.

So slower Aircraft like the Zero that are typically low wing loading high MVR, While faster A/C like the F4U are High wing loading and High speed. The speed check allows high MVR ratings to be negated by Higher speed or what we'd call energy tactics.

Conversely if the F4U gets slow his advantage vs. the Zero can't be maximized and the Zero can punish him. The higher the Topspeed delta between two A/C the less frequently you'll find that the slow A/C gets the upperhand. But there are many other factors to be considered that we should all be familiar with. I won't go into the details on those here...

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: TheElf
If it makes you all feel any better, here are some things I have seen in testing.

This is Combat at PH Dec 7 1941. Radar is up. The Zekes are on escort for the KB raid at 15k’. P-40s are CAP’ing at 23k’. My explanation of the routine FOLLOWS the boxed data.

Maybe this is stating the obvious, but for the benefit of both Team Members and devoted WitP fans: After AE is released, the long suffering masses will make their purchase and then swiftly drown in the vast sea of new "wow". Map, units, AI, gameplay, all of these and more will be coming at us in great gulps, and while they will be appreciated in their entirety (blissfully so), the ability of the player to concentrate on single items, to savor and digest them, well, it will happen, but not in depth, as it's experienced for the first time.

Which makes a post such as TheElf's, all the sweeter. We read it, reread it, savor the differences between WitP and AE, turn the implications over in our minds, read and agree/disagree with the interpretations others place upon these new nuggets, and all of this goes on for days. And it's really quite enjoyable. So, yes, Team Guys, please continue to share.

[Flying Tiger]

And I second what Kull just said. Thanks Elf for a fantastic narrative. Loved the detail. Cant WAIT for AE....
 
 
 
"better than the act... better than the memory.... the moment of.... ANTICIPATION"

[Flying Tiger]

BTW, will all those performance figures be easily accessible IN GAME? I'm not keen on hunting through manuals to try to figure out whether i should fly my Hurri IIs at 10,000', or 20,000', or ???? Detail is fantastic, but if we need it we need to be able to get access to it!

[bradfordkay]

My question is how much of that combat information is going to be seen on screen?

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger

BTW, will all those performance figures be easily accessible IN GAME? I'm not keen on hunting through manuals to try to figure out whether i should fly my Hurri IIs at 10,000', or 20,000', or ???? Detail is fantastic, but if we need it we need to be able to get access to it!

Yes. Each Aircraft Data page will have MVR figures for full spectrum. Also the MVR is editable by "band". In other words there is no hard code governing MVR.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

My question is how much of that combat information is going to be seen on screen?

Not much. What I posted above was a heavily edited test AAR that came out of the guts of the system. You will still have to look at the situation, unique to the moment of each combat and interpret what happened.

That said, there are some messages that can be seen and made sense of.

[TheElf]

The following is an excerpt from the Dec 7th replay of a test game a couple of builds ago.

Morning Air attack on Iba , at 78,75

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 31
G4M1 Betty x 27


Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 9


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged


Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg AP Bomb
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg AP Bomb
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg AP Bomb

Here is a cross section of the Action above. In this case a lone P-40E has been spotted by a flight of Zekes and they are attacking from below. Yes it happened… They have him out numbered and it would seem they also have the drop on him.

Start air-air flight round

Attacker 4 A6M2-21 Zero planes from Tainan Ku S-1
Defender 1 P-40E Warhawk planes from 24th PG/17th PS
Flights are defined

Zeroes detect enemy P-40E flight

...Attacking Zero Pilot with skill (76) attempts to engage opposing P-40E

....P-40E with skill (63) tries to evade combat

......planes engage in combat

P-40E fails to avoid this fight

Energy state Check

A6M2-21 Zero Alt:10000 speed:242 mvr:29 exp:75 (attacker)
P-40E Warhawk Alt:13000 speed:293 mvr:16 exp:63 (defender)

P-40 has a higher Airspeed and is in the hole on EXP vs. this opponent.

A6M2-21 Zero after speed check mvr:19
P-40E Warhawk after speed check mvr:16

A6M2-21 Zero after number in flight (4) check - mvr:29
P-40E Warhawk after number in flight (1) check - mvr:16

A6M2-21 Zero final mvr:29 exp:114
P-40E Warhawk final mvr:16 exp:63

Several checks are performed. MVR is modified by speed, in this case the attacking Zeke is attacking up hill with 3 of his mates, and is at a 50 mph energy disadvantage. However he has numerical superiority and is in his Zeke’s Most beneficial Altitude Band. There is a bonus for numerical superiority at play here. Could be the P-40E is concentrating on dash 2 or 3 and doesn’t see this guy…


Open fire…

A6M2-21 Zero firing 2 x 7.7mm Type 89 MG at plane P-40E Warhawk, range 3
>Damage 5 added to plane 7608

Plane 390 A6M2-21 Zero firing 2 x 20mm Type 99 Cannon at plane 7608 P-40E Warhawk, range 3
>Damage 35 added to plane 7608

P-40E of defending flight has been killed

It’s over quickly…looks like this guy never saw it coming. He was engaged and new he was fighting for his life but lost SA...

End plane-plane round

[kaleun]

Are the combat or operations reports all going to be as detailed as that?[X(]

[VSWG]

No, this is some sort of debug mode.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: TheElf

The following is an excerpt from the Dec 7th replay of a test game a couple of builds ago.

Morning Air attack on Iba , at 78,75

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 31
G4M1 Betty x 27


Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 9


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged


Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg AP Bomb
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg AP Bomb
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg AP Bomb

Here is a cross section of the Action above. In this case a lone P-40E has been spotted by a flight of Zekes and they are attacking from below. Yes it happened… They have him out numbered and it would seem they also have the drop on him.

Start air-air flight round

Attacker 4 A6M2-21 Zero planes from Tainan Ku S-1
Defender 1 P-40E Warhawk planes from 24th PG/17th PS
Flights are defined

Zeroes detect enemy P-40E flight

...Attacking Zero Pilot with skill (76) attempts to engage opposing P-40E

....P-40E with skill (63) tries to evade combat

......planes engage in combat

P-40E fails to avoid this fight

Energy state Check

A6M2-21 Zero Alt:10000 speed:242 mvr:29 exp:75 (attacker)
P-40E Warhawk Alt:13000 speed:293 mvr:16 exp:63 (defender)

P-40 has a higher Airspeed and is in the hole on EXP vs. this opponent.

A6M2-21 Zero after speed check mvr:19
P-40E Warhawk after speed check mvr:16

A6M2-21 Zero after number in flight (4) check - mvr:29
P-40E Warhawk after number in flight (1) check - mvr:16

A6M2-21 Zero final mvr:29 exp:114
P-40E Warhawk final mvr:16 exp:63

Several checks are performed. MVR is modified by speed, in this case the attacking Zeke is attacking up hill with 3 of his mates, and is at a 50 mph energy disadvantage. However he has numerical superiority and is in his Zeke’s Most beneficial Altitude Band. There is a bonus for numerical superiority at play here. Could be the P-40E is concentrating on dash 2 or 3 and doesn’t see this guy…


Open fire…

A6M2-21 Zero firing 2 x 7.7mm Type 89 MG at plane P-40E Warhawk, range 3
>Damage 5 added to plane 7608

Plane 390 A6M2-21 Zero firing 2 x 20mm Type 99 Cannon at plane 7608 P-40E Warhawk, range 3
>Damage 35 added to plane 7608

P-40E of defending flight has been killed

It’s over quickly…looks like this guy never saw it coming. He was engaged and new he was fighting for his life but lost SA...

End plane-plane round

Many thanks!!! [:)][&o][&o][&o]


Leo "Apollo11"

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Are the combat or operations reports all going to be as detailed as that?[X(]

They are now for debugging, but before release, that will be turned off for fog of war purposes.

Bill

[1275psi]

Man - the detail here is enourmous -this is going to be so good


Hey japan - I think your question is definately answered in the positive...............



Im ever so pleased that pilot experience actually counts -who else here is already thinking of forming "crack squadrons/ sentais ? (will that be possible?) of 90 plus pilots?

(or of saving them in rear areas until the Franks come along?

[1275psi]

All this testing....have you guys tried a huge CV strike meets a huge CAP? -ie about 6 or 8 Cvs worth on each side -something that could happen easily in mid 43 -and what sort of results are you getting?

I am so curious!!!!