Some discussion of 1.0.5

[gargoil]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

4. there should NOT be any penalties to mutli-racial empires and no benefits to being racially pure. I play this game to rule over the galaxy, not simulate the nazi party. I don't care if you think its realistic or not, I want and like and enjoy multi-racial empires and I think they should provide bonuses compared to single race empires.

I am not talking about the Nazi party and I resent that immature comment [X(]



I am talking about the problem of having different ethnicities, cultures & religions not about a single master race.

I am not advocating that any race is superior by default or should be so.



Again; Diversity has its strenghts as well as weaknesses.

Again; Balance is the issue of Diversity of inhabitants vs single race imperium

The same is true for homogenous empires. They miss out on diverse racial bonusses and abilities.



I am not advocating anything extreme here; get over your god complex [:'(]

1) He did not say you called him a Nazi - calm down folks! He just said the gameplay would feel like that.
2) I do see a problem that to stay racial pure = genocide of all other races. It automatically follows.
3) Colony spamming with multi racial - this is due to cheap colony ships and "Free" 10m+ colonists.

[Bartje]

I dispute that staying racially single (pure is the wrong word I see the Nazi connection here [:'(]) means automatically the genocide of other races.

It means genocide if you go on a conquering spree and decide you don't want their population.

If so you can decide to subjugate them in stead.

Gift away their colonies

Abandon those planets

Many strategies to deal with it. Far from gaming genocide in my opinion.


Victory is also not necissarily achived through military means in the game so that cannot be the reason either.


I am also not saying that being racially single should always be the best option. It depends on whether or not you want your racial bonus to be as high as possible or if you want the bonus of another race to be higher by increasing their population in your empire.

[taltamir]

I am open to your ideas butI disagree that a multi-racial empire would be weaker if you scale racial bonuses based on population.

Then you fail at math.
Currently you get X bonus for your starting race, and Y*(2*%pop) bonus for every other race (where 2*%pop caps out at 100%).
Your suggestion is to have X*%pop for the bonus of your starting race, and either no change to other races or simply Y*%pop (I am not clear on how you want that to change)...

lets say for now its the no change and its Y*2*%pop.
in an empire with multiple races, X > X*%pop AND Y*2*%pop > Y*%pop
Therefore X + Y*2*%pop > X*%pop + Y*%pop

If you say that it is Y*%pop then:
in an empire with multiple races, X>X*%pop
Therefore X + Y*2*%pop > X*%pop + Y*%pop

%pop is obviously less than or equal to 100% (aka, less than or equal to 1).

Basic math shows that your suggestion would make them weaker compared to how they are right now. Your suggestion is a NERF, to claim otherwise is insanity... math is very clear here, currently you have a certain power level, you suggest to REDUCE said power level.
And btw, they are already too weak compared to how they were in v1.00 of the game

[Bartje]

Did you take into account the colony bonusses and development bonusses those multi racial empires should have if colonization is altered / tweaked?

My feeling was that in that situation they would have a strategic advantage because the races native to certain environments would allow their colonies to develop at a lower cost.

This would make the private sector and state richer compared to a racially single empire which would need to invest more in said planets.

On the other hand: The bonus of the racially single would be stronger while the diverse would have weaker but also more bonusses.

Does it still compute then?

(I haven't done the math)

[:)]


(My idea regarding bonus is to scale the bonus itself in relation to the amount of population of related race within the empire which includes the original empire race

so 1 M humans give bonus 100% being 100% of empire population
if 1M Human and 1 M Kiadan then both races give 50% of the full bonus)

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

ORIGINAL: Bartje

4. there should NOT be any penalties to mutli-racial empires and no benefits to being racially pure. I play this game to rule over the galaxy, not simulate the nazi party. I don't care if you think its realistic or not, I want and like and enjoy multi-racial empires and I think they should provide bonuses compared to single race empires.

I am not talking about the Nazi party and I resent that immature comment [X(]



I am talking about the problem of having different ethnicities, cultures & religions not about a single master race.

I am not advocating that any race is superior by default or should be so.



Again; Diversity has its strenghts as well as weaknesses.

Again; Balance is the issue of Diversity of inhabitants vs single race imperium

The same is true for homogenous empires. They miss out on diverse racial bonusses and abilities.



I am not advocating anything extreme here; get over your god complex [:'(]

1) He did not say you called him a Nazi - calm down folks! He just said the gameplay would feel like that.
2) I do see a problem that to stay racial pure = genocide of all other races. It automatically follows.
3) Colony spamming with multi racial - this is due to cheap colony ships and "Free" 10m+ colonists.

1. exactly
2. exactly.
3. I did suggest that colony ships would not magically create colonists...
colony ships should produce with 0 population in them and require passenger storage. They would then load up citizens (automatically) into their passenger storage before going to colonize a planet.

[Bartje]

2. again, I disagree for these reasons:

I dispute that staying racially single (pure is the wrong word I see the Nazi connection here [:'(]) means automatically the genocide of other races.

It means genocide if you go on a conquering spree and decide you don't want their population.

If so you can decide to subjugate them in stead.

Gift away their colonies

Abandon those planets

Many strategies to deal with it. Far from gaming genocide in my opinion.


Victory is also not necissarily achived through military means in the game so that cannot be the reason either.


I am also not saying that being racially single should always be the best option. It depends on whether or not you want your racial bonus to be as high as possible or if you want the bonus of another race to be higher by increasing their population in your empire.

1. I am happy you didn't then [:)] Sorry for the implication.


3. I agree that creating colonists is somewhat fishy (I miss fishman!)

Perhaps this could be explained as cloning or something? Should be made plausible or removed I think.

[Kruos]

Some great ideas here!

- I love the concept of continental/marshy/desert planet colonizable by everyone, with a cap depending of your races and your colonization tech. I think it is a very good idea to developp.

- I also love the concept of "war weariness increase" for multi racial empire at war with one of their own races. However, to avoid issues from mutli-racial empire at war with multi-racial empire, I suggest to limit this to native race only (war weariness increase if the native race of the empire you are at war with is one of your own races).

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Kruos

Some great ideas here!

- I also love the concept of "war weariness increase" for multi racial empire at war with one of their own races. However, to avoid issues from mutli-racial empire at war with multi-racial empire, I suggest to limit this to native race only (war weariness increase if the native race of the empire you are at war with is one of your own races).

this already occurs exactly as you suggested.

Gift away their colonies

Abandon those planets

Many strategies to deal with it. Far from gaming genocide in my opinion.

Your claim of "many ways" doesn't hold water... so far you have suggested the following alternatives to genocide:
1. Gift it away (aka, don't conquer anything)... This is a 4x game, conquering is the whole point, the last thing I want to do is gift away all my colonies.
2. "Abandon" the colonies... there are two ways to do that:
a. all colonists are deleted and you can then colonize it... this is genocide hidden under a gamist solution.
b. abandon them to become "independent race"... this goes right back to "cannot conquer planets". The planet in question become a no-mans land that you cannot conquer... of course, the AI Would happily conquer them...

in reality there are only two possible results:
1. genocide - this sucks!
2. live with the penalties, which are inevitable... the game simply punishes you for every planet you conquer. - this sucks!

[Joram]

Seriously guys, let it drop, your arguing is going to drown out everyone's suggestions.  Just agree to disagree. 

[Kruos]

this already occurs exactly as you suggested.

Are you sure??? Sorry but I did not notice that...

If it already occurs like that it is great, but frankly I think it should be more highlighted in game, because after many wars in my games it was not at all obvious that it worked like that.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Joram

Seriously guys, let it drop, your arguing is going to drown out everyone's suggestions.  Just agree to disagree. 

Yes, my original point is long lost: that the current system cheapens the colonization tech, floods the early game with colony ship spam, and makes finding these other races far too overpowering.

[gargoil]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: Joram

Seriously guys, let it drop, your arguing is going to drown out everyone's suggestions.  Just agree to disagree. 

Yes, my original point is long lost: that the current system cheapens the colonization tech, floods the early game with colony ship spam, and makes finding these other races far too overpowering.

Your post is not lost - as far as I can tell, the back and forth going on is specific to remedies suggested and evaluated in response to those very issues.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Kruos

this already occurs exactly as you suggested.

Are you sure??? Sorry but I did not notice that...

If it already occurs like that it is great, but frankly I think it should be more highlighted in game, because after many wars in my games it was not at all obvious that it worked like that.

Well, its not technically part of war weariness.
double click the name of a planet, it has a breakdown of morale bonuses and penalties in that planet.
If you are at war with an empire of a certain race, then all planets which have that race take a hit to morale. The only effect of war weariness is that it decreases morale... so the two work in conjunction. If you are at war with the sucurean empire, then every planet without secureans will have, say, -20 morale due to war weariness. a planet with secureans will have -20 due to war weariness AND an additional -30 from "secureans being unhappy that we are at war with their race".

[Kruos]

Hmmm... thank for the ui tip taltamir, I will look better at it in my games.

Concerning the issue about colonization tech useless versus racial colonization ability, as said before, I think that the concept of allowing to colonize continental, desert and marshy planet directly from the start, and allowing to rise the population cap by tech or racial affinity is a very good one :

- independant colonies are still very interesting, because they rise your population cap for specific type of planets for which they have affinity
- colonization tech become usefull, and still have an interest even in the end game

The idea of specific colonization yard component, very large and needing a large spaceport, is also very good, and I think compatible with the concept below.

Both could greatly improve the game, in my opinion.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Kruos

Hmmm... thank for the ui tip taltamir, I will look better at it in my games.

Concerning the issue about colonization tech useless versus racial colonization ability, as said before, I think that the concept of allowing to colonize continental, desert and marshy planet directly from the start, and allowing to rise the population cap by tech or racial affinity is a very good one :

- independant colonies are still very interesting, because they rise your population cap for specific type of planets for which they have affinity
- colonization tech become usefull, and still have an interest even in the end game

I like it as well.
Especially if it would be combined with a "cloning ban" so to speak

[Wenla]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I play with alien life set on the lowest standing. It's rare. They are still everywhere. I still have never had to use an advanced colony tech.

They are monsters, you can't rid of them and the devs definition of rare/few doesn't really mesh with my own.

I thought the lowest setting was "off"... there you have it, this is the problem. the lowest setting is "rare" instead of "none"... this needs to change. we need a "none" setting of independents.

The only thing you can actually turn off in this game are pirates. And if you couldn't do that, I wouldn't play it at all.

Everything else is a false choice. I've actually turned monsters on a higher setting than the lowest and noticed only a very marginal difference.

Independent colonies are the same way. The lowest setting isn't very low at all. You still find them early and often enough to disregard all colony tech.

In one of my earlier game there was so big Kaltor nest (and it really was BIG!) that it/those eated my five over 10 ships fleets with ease. I left rest to multiply more...

I had turned pirates off and creatures to minimum.

[Barleyman]

Maybe the colonists should be recruited the same way troops are?

This would really tone down exploiting freshly subjucated species who wouldn't probably be too eager to sign up..

[Bartje]

Kaltors can be mean!

Another option is to keep the tech that creates colonists but to keep it high up on the tech tree.

That way the techs that allow you to colonize certain planet types are available early while the get rich quick option for colonization is left for the later game when there won't be that many unsettled planets anyway.

How about that?

---

@ Taltamir:

I understand that you feel that the gameplay would be a bit genocidal in the conquest department of the game when you start to aim for non-inclusion of other races in your empire.

A solution to this would be the ability to release subjugated tributaries or vassals of said races including their planets. This way they should count towards your victory requirements as well as supplying you with taxes, resources and trade. (perhaps inventions too?)

Would such a solution solve these feelings?


In my opinion this would introduce a great deal of plausibility as well as strategy. (Fun fun fun!!)

Not only would colonization require a strategy there would also be the political option of forcing others to release vassals, the galaxy would consist of "sphere's of influence" as well as the existence of buffer states between major powers.


How would you (all) feel about this idea? It does borrow from history and in it is included in one form or another in the Europa Universalis series as well.

I would like to see some more plausible, complex and fun galactic politics as well as internal [:)]

[Mowen]

About modding for translating the game to another language:

It will be great if we could have the strings of the user interface in a external resource file that is easily editable. For now, we can only translate the tutorials and the diplomacy dialogs (txt files) but there is nothing for the user interface probably because the strings are compiled in the main executable file. I do not know if it is possible to do that at this development stage.

Edit: copied to the wishlist post. This post can be removed.

[cmdrnarrain]

I just don't get all of this talk about extermination vs. not extermination???  Extermination has been part of the 4x from the beginning.  In fact it is one of the 4x's.  Get over it.  Read Emperor Fred, the game is about fun and shanking a few toad men.  Save the PC mumble jumbo for non-war game sites.

 
You do have a good point however,  it would be pretty neat if planets spawned a bunch of colony ships as you nuked it as the population fled.  It could explain why you find all of these abandoned colony ships.   The hero's could save them.  The rest of us would just have another fleet waiting with wrap inhibitors.    [:D]