Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

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bristolduke
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by bristolduke »

Q-ball may be correct in that any approach at PI would have brought the Americans into the war.

Let me go back and re-iterate. There is no doubt Japan was going to declare war on the US. Roosevelt was not going to get an option. He wanted to be involved in Europe but had very liitle public support. Had Hitler not been stupid enough to declare war on the US, Rossevelt would have had a public focused upon defeating Japan and an even stronger resistance to Europe (why get in a war in Europe when you are already attacked in the Pacific).

In looking at political solutions in the Pacific,

1) Rule out the suprise attack factor, as it was not the Japanese plan, if was an accident (fatal at that and one could argue that the attack plan timeline was too precise for the state of communications of the era). But now you don't have the "revenge" motivator (which BTW still prevades a lot of Americans today).
2) Hitler doesn't declare war so the US is fighting only in the Pacific (in it's unprepared state).


Are there scenarios where the Japanese can win a political victory thru war? Would the US public feel passionate enough about the Phillipines to tolerate 2yrs of war, with no real success (or can the US get success in 2 years?) Would any European country have demanded a continued war in by the end of 1942 or would they have at least entertained a peace. The Japanese were not in India and given the trouble England had controlling India would probably have welcomed some assurances (believable or not) that Japan would leave India in their hands. Churchill was very pro keeping India as a colony.

Would the US have actually followed War Plan Orange? Which may have been fatal.

I believe these are plausible scenarios (and others), given the political environment of the time.
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Grit
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Grit »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: xj900uk
Agreed. Morale amongst even the toughest Marine units, and also on Naval ships faced with yet another Kamikaze attack in '45, was definitely starting to crack. Some men broke down in uncontrollable weeping, others just threw themselves overboard - they had reached the end of their line. Ugaki who commanded the Kamikaze units in '45 hoped this might well happen, but the US military rather wisely covered this up at the time and prevented information that morale was getting close to the cracking point from ever getting out, even to the US press.
Must be nice making pronunciamento from a soft, comfy, easy-chair. You have obviously never talked to a Marine.

When troops are interviewed, they tend to tell the truth; and for combat veterans, truth is they feel fear, rage, fear, frustration, and fear. Likely Sargon's troops felt the same way. But to conclude that this implies the Marine's morale was cracking indicates that you should perhaps learn a bit more about combat/conflict dynamics. Being afraid is good, in certain circumstances.

In any nominal combat unit, there are 3 classes of individuals:

5% are hysterical ostriches - they jump overboard, hide, run about shouting - basically interfering with useful activity, frightening and irritating everybody else, and generally making a nuisance of themselves.

5% are hard, cold, and wicked - they have sublimated their fear and turned the emotional energy into focus and purpose.

90% are trained, know what to do, and do ok, but need a kick in the pants to do better (need to be led and directed). Normally, it's the Hard 5% that are the leaders (officially and unofficially), so the 90% will do what is necessary, and what they were trained to do under that prompting. It's a psychological trust thing.

Sometimes, you may get a ship/unit where the Hysterics outnumber the Hard, and swamp the leadership principal. A real witch for the poor 90% pukes; but because it was unusual, it got reported; NOT because it was normal. For Marines, I would guess 2% Hysterics and 8% Hard.

So please don't do contemporary psychobabble when speaking about morale in the mid 1940s. It is both much simpler and more complex than you can imagine.

Well said.

I thought about responding but I said no, it's not worth it on this forum.

I'm sure the Japanese soldiers would have suffered incredible psychological effects from the war but sadly the cracked up weeping Marines and Sailors killed most of them.
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by xj900uk »

Must be nice making pronunciamento from a soft, comfy, easy-chair. You have obviously never talked to a Marine

I'm actually ex-services (RAF). And my father was a Marine Feb '41 to Jan '44 and then a Royal Marine Commando Jan '44 to March '46 ('X' Troop 4th Commando Brigade) specialising in SBS raids (dropped off by a sub then paddle ashore in a 2-man canoe) on enemy occupied territory along the French, Belgian and Dutch coasts, he saw service mainly in the Med, N Africa, Italy and northern Europe. He was on one of the D-Day beaches the night before th einvasion helping to map out where all the booby traps and u/w obstacles were. If he was captured by the Germans engaged in this activity following Hitlers directive he would have bene treated as a sabateur and terrorist and shot out of hand.
He was wounded twice in WWII, both time by 'Friendly Fire' from American forces. The 2nd time he was seriously burned (Sept '44) and taken off front-line operations for the rest of the conflict.
My father was a Marine, and he was the best. So yeah, I would like to think I have talked to and known one.
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Alfred »

I keep seeing people discussing this issue as if it ultimately was within Roosevelt's unfettered power to declare war.

I hope you all do realise firstly the constitutional role of Congress and secondly the Gulf of Tonkin resolution occurred well over twenty years later. Don't you think there might have been grounds to explain why economic measures, rather than military, were employed by the USA in the four and a half years prior to Pearl Harbor. It's not as if no Lusitania or Zimmerman telegram equivalents existed prior to Pearl Harbor had there been a widespread political will to act similar to that which had existed in 1915-17.

Also, isn't it about time that people stopped parroting the simple and unsophisticaed line that Hitler was stupid in declaring war on the USA. There were valid grounds, in both international law and in response to third party pressure, for him to do so. Whether it was wise or a serious misassessment of the known conditions is a different matter and one which is generally dismissed on superficial analysis, but the illogical action of a man incarcerated in Bedlam (which the Hitler of post July 1944 might perhaps be characterised), it was not.

Superior industrial capacity alone does not guarantee victory in war. Vietnam (both the first and second wars against the French and Americans respectively), Afghanistan (against the Soviets '79-'89), Algeria (against the French in the 1950s and 1960s), Israel (1948) are just some of the twentieth century conflicts where the loser had a far greater GDP than the victor.

So a bit more concrete analysis is in order. In May 1941 (lert alone the position achieved 6 months later after conquering most of European Russia), the raw aggregate GDP available to Germany (let alone the combined European and Asiatic Axis GDP) dwarfed that of Britain or the Soviets. I don't often see posts which explain why the latent industrial capacity was not maximised...and no, the explanation does not lie in the simplistic proposition that Germany did not adopt a Total War position until Speer was appointed as he both instituted/retained many inefficient measures and just like his predecesors was hamstrung by inherited structural economic factors.

Alfred
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Nikademus
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Nikademus »

IIRC, Hitler was badly served by his intel which told him the US was about to declare war on him, so the as mentioned typical "Hitler is just dumb" line doesn't really apply.

PS. It does make for an interesting what if on the whole war declaration thing. Japan's attack made a war dec on Japan pie. (one disenting vote). Getting Congress to ok a dec on Germany would have been trickier.

The way things fall in place sometimes makes you wonder about fate.
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Grit
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Grit »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There were valid grounds, in both international law and in response to third party pressure, for him to do so.

Alfred

I agree with much or your statement. But I just had to laugh a little at this. Hitler was well known for following International Law and bowing down to Third Party Pressure.
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Grit

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There were valid grounds, in both international law and in response to third party pressure, for him to do so.

Alfred

I agree with much or your statement. But I just had to laugh a little at this. Hitler was well known for following International Law and bowing down to Third Party Pressure.

Ah yes...now that you bring this up, I can see how it might be the cause for some mirth.[:)]

Yet notwithstanding the irony of the "bigger picture" or where it was knowingly disregarded, there are many examples of Hitler "abiding" by international law and providing some basis for the policy of appeasement prior to March 1939. At the risk of hijacking this thread I will mention a few.

(a) The 1935 Anglo-German Naval Treaty. Freely negotiated by both countries, and in stark contrast with the approach adopted with regard to the establishment of the Luftwaffe, this treaty was largely complied with.

(b) The Anschluss was orchestrated for it to be presented as a friendly merger, at the request of the Austrians with massive crowd support to welcome the nice Wehrmacht

(c) The use of German military disguised as Polish military to spark an incident and therefore provide a casus bellus for war against Poland, after the Non-Aggression Pact had expired

(d) Adherence to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and as a result (i) allowing the incorporation of Lithuania into the Soviet bloc and (ii) not supporting Rumania against the Soviets in mid 1940

(e) Until November 1942, generally respecting the integrity of Vichy France and in particular its colonial territories

(f) Compliance with the Geneva Conventions with respect to the Western Allies

to name a few. Of course self interest/benefit played a significant role, but then that is the cornerstone of all international law.

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Grit
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Grit »

"Another intercepted diplomatic message from the Japanese Ambassador in Berlin states (D-657):


"At 1 p.m. today [8 December 1941] I called on Foreign Minister Ribbentrop and told him our wish was to have Germany and Italy issue formal declarations of war on America at once. Ribbentrop replied that Hitler was then in the midst of a conference at general headquarters discussing how the formalities of declaring war could be carried out so as to make a good impression on the German people, and that he would transmit your wish to him at once and do whatever he was able to have it carried out promptly. At that time Ribbentrop told me that on the morning of the 8th Hitler issued orders to the entire German Navy to attack American ships whenever and wherever they might meet them.
"It goes without saying that this is only for your secret information.'' (D-657)

Thus, Hitler ordered attacks on American ships before the German declaration of war.

Then on 11 December 1941 Ribbentrop, in the name of the German Government, announced a state of war between Germany and United States."


I'm not an expert on International Law but wouldn't this be a violation?

I'm sure Hitler followed International Law when it was convenient to do so for his long term goals.

I know it's difficult to make a good arguement for anything Hitler did. But I do applaud your effort.
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Grit

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There were valid grounds, in both international law and in response to third party pressure, for him to do so.

Alfred


(f) Compliance with the Geneva Conventions with respect to the Western Allies
Warspite1

Thats a joke right?
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Alfred
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Grit





(f) Compliance with the Geneva Conventions with respect to the Western Allies
Warspite1

Thats a joke right?

No.

Care to nominate any systematic German contravention of the Geneva Conventions in how they were applied, or not applied as you seem to suggest, to the Western Allies?

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Grit
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Grit »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Alfred


Warspite1

Thats a joke right?

No.

Care to nominate any systematic German contravention of the Geneva Conventions in how they were applied, or not applied as you seem to suggest, to the Western Allies?

Alfred

Here is an example and you can find many more.

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Alfred
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Grit

"Another intercepted diplomatic message from the Japanese Ambassador in Berlin states (D-657):


"At 1 p.m. today [8 December 1941] I called on Foreign Minister Ribbentrop and told him our wish was to have Germany and Italy issue formal declarations of war on America at once. Ribbentrop replied that Hitler was then in the midst of a conference at general headquarters discussing how the formalities of declaring war could be carried out so as to make a good impression on the German people, and that he would transmit your wish to him at once and do whatever he was able to have it carried out promptly. At that time Ribbentrop told me that on the morning of the 8th Hitler issued orders to the entire German Navy to attack American ships whenever and wherever they might meet them.
"It goes without saying that this is only for your secret information.'' (D-657)

Thus, Hitler ordered attacks on American ships before the German declaration of war.

Then on 11 December 1941 Ribbentrop, in the name of the German Government, announced a state of war between Germany and United States."


I'm not an expert on International Law but wouldn't this be a violation?

I'm sure Hitler followed International Law when it was convenient to do so for his long term goals.

I know it's difficult to make a good arguement for anything Hitler did. But I do applaud your effort.

Actually you can go back several months before December 1941 and find there was already an undeclared shooting war between German U-Boats and the American navy (IIRC think of the DD Ruben) and those actions by both the Germans and the Americans generated a casus bellus which activity in turn could be argued was against international law. Hence why in my initial post I made reference to American political will. Raeder and the Kriegsmarine heirarchy had been pressuring Hitler for months to declare war on the USA so when Congress declared war on Japan, Hitler was able to comply with his international obligations (the TriPartite Treaty) to declare war.

International law is essentially made up of two elements: (a) customary law (akin to the common law concept of Anglo-Saxon domestic jurisdictions) which is the praxis of countries, and (b) agreed treaties (akin to statute law in domestic jurisdictions), that is acceptable behaviour between countries which has been agreed by the relevant parties. Post the establishment of the United Nations, it would be difficult for a member country of the UN to argue that any action it undertook which gives a cassus bellus to another is not against international law (for simplicity I am putting aside whether the action was sanctioned by the Security Council or was allowed by the UN Charter etc). But in 1941 things were simpler, notwithstanding the Kellog-Briand Pact.

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Nikademus
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Nikademus »

Subs, the US and "international law" are not a good mix if trying to debate from the high ground. [:D]


Alfred
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Subs, the US and "international law" are not a good mix if trying to debate from the high ground. [:D]



Sometimes I am a bit dense and don't quite understand what is posted by others.

If your last post was meant to suggest that I am adopting the high ground to excuse or justify the German U-Boat actions, then clearly I have not been exact enough in my posts. But if you are suggesting that the US had the high ground, which I don't think you really are, then that would not be correct either.

Neither the Germans nor the Americans held the high ground during the undeclared shooting war before Pearl Harbor. My point was that it was precisely because they were not operating from the high ground that the Kriegsmarine was so keen to get Hitler to declare war, and why when presented with the opportunity to comply with his treaty obligations, Hitler saw an opportunity to climb out of the murky depths (yes pun intended).

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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Subs, the US and "international law" are not a good mix if trying to debate from the high ground. [:D]
You should never use words of more than three sylables, or mention topics that require a certain degree of intellect for understanding, when engaging wargamers.
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Subs, the US and "international law" are not a good mix if trying to debate from the high ground. [:D]
You should never use words of more than three sylables, or mention topics that require a certain degree of intellect for understanding, when engaging wargamers.

He's doomed by his name: Nik-a-de-mus

4 Syllables! [:D]
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

you sound like SLA Marshall. [;)]

I studied this professionally during 1975-1989 and wrote a PhD research proposal to carry it further. It's a lot more complicated than JWE indicates, but he provides a good summary. People vary a lot in their tolerance for risk. First, some people are just innately more or less tolerant of risk--partly based on intelligence, partly on personality, and partly on cortisol level. Second, people's roles and jobs mandate different levels of risk-tolerance--in WWII, platoon leaders took quite a bit more risk than sergeants and company commanders. Finally, risk tolerance is normatively controlled, and people are strongly influenced by group norms. Mix it all together, and you get a pattern much like JWE (and Marshall) describes, although with a lot of variation between units.
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by bigred »

You should never use words of more than three sylables, or mention topics that require a certain degree of intellect for understanding, when engaging wargamers.


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Nikademus
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: Alfred


Sometimes I am a bit dense and don't quite understand what is posted by others.

If your last post was meant to suggest that I am adopting the high ground to excuse or justify the German U-Boat actions, then clearly I have not been exact enough in my posts. But if you are suggesting that the US had the high ground, which I don't think you really are, then that would not be correct either.

Neither the Germans nor the Americans held the high ground during the undeclared shooting war before Pearl Harbor. My point was that it was precisely because they were not operating from the high ground that the Kriegsmarine was so keen to get Hitler to declare war, and why when presented with the opportunity to comply with his treaty obligations, Hitler saw an opportunity to climb out of the murky depths (yes pun intended).

Alfred


ORIGINAL: JWE

You should never use words of more than three sylables, or mention topics that require a certain degree of intellect for understanding, when engaging wargamers.

ORIGINAL: witpqs


He's doomed by his name: Nik-a-de-mus

4 Syllables! [:D]


Yikes. I guess so [:D]


Thats what i get for sticking my tongue in my cheek and resisting the call of the BLAH BLAH. [:'(] Alfred's instincts were correct. The US never held the high ground when it came to the Ocean hence my cheeky reference. I'll add the high ground was absent in that area during WWI too. Thus i'd recommend a more suitable platform for harping on Hitler's transgressions against "International Law." [:D]

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Rankorian
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RE: Grognards. PH. Midway. Phillipines

Post by Rankorian »

1.  I respect the opinions here, but am a tad concerned that the US and even Roosevelt of 1941 is being viewed too much through post D-Day eyes.  Political winds can change quickly, and still suspect (perhaps erroneously) that there could have been some sequence of events in 1941-42, even accidents (US carrier explodes while under construction, where it is clearly the fault of some private company, with much loss of life, and a congressional investigation into corrupt business practices which distracts the Congress and the country), that could have lead to something less than full US war mobilization, despite Japan gaining access to DEI oil.  Again, this would presume someones very shrewd in the Japanese high command.
 
2. Changing the victory conditions so that the Allies lose if they take a certain absolute amount of troop/plane/ship point losses seems both historical to me, and would make the game more interesting in late years.  I am not sure relative losses affected American thinking.  The "we lost x soldiers this week, but the other side lost 5x, so we are winning" did not work well in Vietnam, and I doubt most Americans cared if the US owned Guam. 
 
3. Consider Japan waiting until it is right up against the resource wall before attacking--say, November 1942.  What result in Europe and the Pacific?   Russia gets all of Germany, because D-day is delayed?  Would the US/British/Dutch been unbeatable a year later, or further weakened--drawn towards Europe?
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