A suggestion to Matrix

[Anendrue]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I care about what ADG think, and I can't imagine that they are enthusiastic about what has transpired. Is this what Harry signed on for in February of 2004? Does the release of an MWiF with no AI and limited to the same four scenarios - little more than a gussied-up CWiF - conform to his vision? I think not.

Warspite1

So why do they not do anything about it? You've had an e-mail exchange with Harry Rowland apparently, so what's the story?

Well I have had an email exchange with Harry over some items for the web site. He seemed pretty upbeat about everything.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Phelan

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It already knocks the socks off Vassal without an AI. I have not seen the version of Vassal with an AI.

Patience is aptly named, but his analysis does not take into acount the cost of money. At average inflation rates the time between now and a "kick-butt AI" will model the 1914 Mark versus the 1924 Mark.

In what sense does MWIF sans AI beat Vassal? People here are discussing prices like 60 dollars for a version with no AI and then 40 more for the AI... That´s a lot more than I´d be willing to pay, let me tell you.

In fact, since WiF Vassal is working just fine I´m not really sure I would find a MWIF sans AI interesting at all. Sure, it can handle supply and stuff like that so you don´t miss things. On the other hand, you will get constricted by RAW, minor rule changes compared to WIF to handle the computerized form will require re-thinking some stuff, will it handle new optionals or rule changes introduced after it´s release? And there will be no room for houserules.

For a long time I would have been happy for a MWIF/CWIF sans AI, but after that came Vassal and frankly now I don´t really see the need for a MWIF unless it comes with an AI.

Well, I for one do NOT use Vassel, have no intentions of using Vassel so to me MWiF is definately something I would want to purchase without (or maybe with) an AI. Just because a lot of people here do things a certain way that is fun and works for them, does not mean everyone feels the same way or wants the same things as those people do.

While I would like a MWiF initially released without an AI, I certainly do not expect the people here (nor Matrix or Shannon) to suddenly say "Wow! What a great idea. Everyone should want this.", lol.

I respect the opposing views and discussion and just wanted to let you know, while I am glad you like Vassel and enjoy it, there are those that don't even use it [:)].

[composer99]

CrusssDaddy @ 56 == spiteful trolling. [>:]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: abj9562

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I care about what ADG think, and I can't imagine that they are enthusiastic about what has transpired. Is this what Harry signed on for in February of 2004? Does the release of an MWiF with no AI and limited to the same four scenarios - little more than a gussied-up CWiF - conform to his vision? I think not.

Warspite1

So why do they not do anything about it? You've had an e-mail exchange with Harry Rowland apparently, so what's the story?

Well I have had an email exchange with Harry over some items for the web site. He seemed pretty upbeat about everything.

Warspite1

What? are you suggesting Crusssdaddy is talking rubbish?.....as usual [8|]

[brian brian]

A suggestion to Matrix .... just please let me give you some money somehow. Kthx bye.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

A suggestion to Matrix .... just please let me give you some money somehow. Kthx bye.

I think they cannot afford having bad reviews if releasing an early/unfinished product. That would hurt them in the long run. I am not suggesting that you would do a bad review yourself tought. I think of the larger gamer's community.

There are others Matrix products right now to spend money.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Phelan

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It already knocks the socks off Vassal without an AI. I have not seen the version of Vassal with an AI.

Patience is aptly named, but his analysis does not take into acount the cost of money. At average inflation rates the time between now and a "kick-butt AI" will model the 1914 Mark versus the 1924 Mark.

In what sense does MWIF sans AI beat Vassal? People here are discussing prices like 60 dollars for a version with no AI and then 40 more for the AI... That´s a lot more than I´d be willing to pay, let me tell you.

Of course. You paid what for Vassal plus an excellent WiF module for it? ... oh yeah, nothing.

In fact, since WiF Vassal is working just fine I´m not really sure I would find a MWIF sans AI interesting at all. Sure, it can handle supply and stuff like that so you don´t miss things. On the other hand, you will get constricted by RAW, minor rule changes compared to WIF to handle the computerized form will require re-thinking some stuff, will it handle new optionals or rule changes introduced after it´s release? And there will be no room for houserules.

For a long time I would have been happy for a MWIF/CWIF sans AI, but after that came Vassal and frankly now I don´t really see the need for a MWIF unless it comes with an AI.

Composer said it best and I quote:

As far as I know, there are five things distinguishing MWiF from the free PBEM World in Flames utilities available.
(1) To legally play these, one is supposed to own a copy of World in Flames (that does not, I have no doubt, stop people from installing and using the PBEM utilities) - buying MWiF is sufficient into itself
(2) The PBEM utilities do not enforce the rules for you, you still have to remember or read them - MWiF does
(3) The PBEM utilities do not sort out counters, supply, production, etc. for you - MWiF does
(4) MWiF has prettier graphics and a user interface that is both better-looking and better-functioning
(5) MWiF has an AI

Assuming (1) is no serious obstacle, the question to be asked, if you want the game sans AI, is whether differences (2), (3) and (4) are sufficient draws to pay money for MWiF versus downloading a PBEM utility such as Cyberboard or Vassal, or even shelling out for the buggy, rudimentary CWiF available on ADG's website.

As for #5, the discussion is about when, not if, and whether there is an advantage in releasing the game that meets conditions 1 through 4 in the near future and then the version with the AI later on.

I'd also add that MWIF beats Vassal for graphics and player interface. Heck, Cyberboard beats Vassal for graphics - but not for player interface. And MWIF's graphics are superior to Cyberboard.

It is true that future rules changes and new optionals may not be added to MWIF and certainly won't become instantly available. But they could be added perhaps. It's difficult to say because it involves the scope of the agreement between ADG and Matrix. But your observation in this regard is based on playing WiF with the aid of a computer. That's not what MWIF is. It is a complete computer game that is based on WiF but has some differences, notably a full (European) scale world map. It also has an extensive sub-set of the WiF optional rules which can be individually selected.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: bo
... maybe just maybe there is nothing like playing a human through PBEM, I did so only once that was for two weeks and did not like the waiting for a reply, I am not knocking it and maybe will enjoy playing one or two of you board gamers in the future, but personally I like playing a game when I want to and not when someone is available to fit it into their schedule. I will by the game without an AI but reluctantly.

Bo

Consider the advantages of playing an AI-less MWIF solitaire;
- a far better version than CWIF
- an AI only as good as you are that you can beat or tie every game (also lose to or tie every game [:@])
- a version that will allow you to play online or by email when you do decide you'd like to try that again - and this version will handle a vast amoount of the overhead and administrivia that you have to juggle when playing using FREX Vassal... production calculation and tracking, remembering all the rules, etc.

[michaelbaldur]

for my point of view:

releasing Mwif without AI ...

is only a option if it takes a long time to finish the AI after the game is bug free ...

and I don´t think that anybody knows how long that takes

[CrusssDaddy]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

for my point of view:

releasing Mwif without AI ...

is only a option if it takes a long time to finish the AI after the game is bug free ...

and I don´t think that anybody knows how long that takes

I'm confused... you said "the AI is almost finished" and "the game is perfect"?!??! Now the game is still bugged and nobody knows when the AI will be done? And I'm the one that's been talking rubbish?

Try to stay on track, ladies. This isn't about me - it's about this game. Matrix's efforts are indefensible, don't try to confuse the issue by switching the focus of the discussion.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: bo
... maybe just maybe there is nothing like playing a human through PBEM, I did so only once that was for two weeks and did not like the waiting for a reply, I am not knocking it and maybe will enjoy playing one or two of you board gamers in the future, but personally I like playing a game when I want to and not when someone is available to fit it into their schedule. I will by the game without an AI but reluctantly.

Bo

Consider the advantages of playing an AI-less MWIF solitaire;
- a far better version than CWIF
- an AI only as good as you are that you can beat or tie every game (also lose to or tie every game [:@])
- a version that will allow you to play online or by email when you do decide you'd like to try that again - and this version will handle a vast amoount of the overhead and administrivia that you have to juggle when playing using FREX Vassal... production calculation and tracking, remembering all the rules, etc.

Sorry not quite sure what you mean, I know this I am playing cwif, and of course only in a solitare version and even though the computer does not allow mistakes, the solitare system is extremely boring even though the die dictates all outcomes and not you other than the odds you can create with multiple attackers, in MHO if you sat at home with the board game and played solitare you would go bananas pretty soon [just assuming that] I would think that the real fun of WIF board game was the chit chat, a little beer[maybe a lot] and just plain socializing with your friends other than that if all your friends moved away got married or just lost interest in the game your WIF board is loaded with dust.[;)]
sorry if you think I am being argumentive, I am not, the only change lately that I have made is reached deep into my soul for patience.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

for my point of view:

releasing Mwif without AI ...

is only a option if it takes a long time to finish the AI after the game is bug free ...

and I don´t think that anybody knows how long that takes

I'm confused... you said "the AI is almost finished" and "the game is perfect"?!??! Now the game is still bugged and nobody knows when the AI will be done? And I'm the one that's been talking rubbish?

Try to stay on track, ladies. This isn't about me - it's about this game. Matrix's efforts are indefensible, don't try to confuse the issue by switching the focus of the discussion.

Wow and I thought you had left[>:] I would like to ask you how you really feel but I dont want to go down that road again[:D]

Bo

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

for my point of view:

releasing Mwif without AI ...

is only a option if it takes a long time to finish the AI after the game is bug free ...

and I don´t think that anybody knows how long that takes

I'm confused... you said "the AI is almost finished" and "the game is perfect"?!??! Now the game is still bugged and nobody knows when the AI will be done? And I'm the one that's been talking rubbish?

Try to stay on track, ladies. This isn't about me - it's about this game. Matrix's efforts are indefensible, don't try to confuse the issue by switching the focus of the discussion.

Warspite1

Post 3 was plain wrong - I do not know why that was posted [&:] - and was mis-leading.

But please read the subsequent posts (which you seem to have "forgotten" in order to make your incredibly witty "try to stay on track ladies" line):

Steve confirmed the position in post 12 and I re-iterated the position to Skanvak in post 24.

To be crystal clear - a) The AI is not nearly done, and b) the game still has bugs that are in need of attention - as advised in Steve's monthly update - and that are being worked through by the beta testers.

That's where we are - no need to be confused.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
That's where we are - no need to be confused.

The only people that are confused either have not read this thread from the beginning or want to appear that way, in time they will catch up if they want to.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: bo
... maybe just maybe there is nothing like playing a human through PBEM, I did so only once that was for two weeks and did not like the waiting for a reply, I am not knocking it and maybe will enjoy playing one or two of you board gamers in the future, but personally I like playing a game when I want to and not when someone is available to fit it into their schedule. I will by the game without an AI but reluctantly.

Bo

Consider the advantages of playing an AI-less MWIF solitaire;
- a far better version than CWIF
- an AI only as good as you are that you can beat or tie every game (also lose to or tie every game [:@])
- a version that will allow you to play online or by email when you do decide you'd like to try that again - and this version will handle a vast amoount of the overhead and administrivia that you have to juggle when playing using FREX Vassal... production calculation and tracking, remembering all the rules, etc.

Sorry not quite sure what you mean, I know this I am playing cwif, and of course only in a solitare version and even though the computer does not allow mistakes, the solitare system is extremely boring even though the die dictates all outcomes and not you other than the odds you can create with multiple attackers, in MHO if you sat at home with the board game and played solitare you would go bananas pretty soon [just assuming that] I would think that the real fun of WIF board game was the chit chat, a little beer[maybe a lot] and just plain socializing with your friends other than that if all your friends moved away got married or just lost interest in the game your WIF board is loaded with dust.[;)]
sorry if you think I am being argumentive, I am not, the only change lately that I have made is reached deep into my soul for patience.

Bo

So now the AI needs to chit chat and buy you beer and socialize. I'm sure that will speed its arrival.

Take that away and you really don't have much difference between AI and solitaire, so just what is the reason you need the game released tomorrow with an AI?

[Phelan]

Paul, relax. I was offering my point of view, which I believe I have as much a right to as anyone, no need for the aggressive tone.

Not that I see that it matters to you, but since I resent the implication I can point out that I do own the board game with all the extra kits, when I use Vassal it is following the limits set by ADG, and the WiF module has permission from ADG.

My background is that I play, and started playing, the boardgame. From that background, I have a playing style where I might like to finish things not necessarily in sequence but rather by map. That is a lot easier on just a computerized board with markers than on MWIF which will have the rules and sequence of play encoded. On the other hand, as I said, one gets a lot of stuff handled automatically with MWIF, so it is a matter of taste and preference. On my part, I know the rules well enough and handle the adminstration rather quickly, so it´s not that big a hassle to do that manually. For someone not used to playing boardgame WiF, the administrative stuff will be a bigger hurdle and for them MWIF will surely be easier.

I haven´t looked at Cyberboard WiF in a while, but Vassal uses scanned original maps and counters, don´t remember that being the case for Cyberboard, will take a new look at it.

Cheers / Phelan

[bo]

Yeah Paul your starting to sound like I used to be, calm down, I was sorta asking a question about comradship in playing games as compared to solitare thats all, why you brought up beer and pretzels in the frame you used it in is beyond me, I also said I will buy it without an AI, gee I know you missed that one, twice now you posted on me and I have no idea what your talking about[&:]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: warspite1
That's where we are - no need to be confused.

The only people that are confused either have not read this thread from the beginning or want to appear that way, in time they will catch up if they want to.

Uh oh, oh boy Flipperwasirish your in trouble telling people they may be confused[&:] you better change your name to Flipperwaswolverine [referring to Michigan football team] but then again I am not sure your a Notre Dame fan[&o]

Bo

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: bo
Uh oh, oh boy Flipperwasirish your in trouble telling people they may be confused[&:] you better change your name to Flipperwaswolverine [referring to Michigan football team] but then again I am not sure your a Notre Dame fan[&o]
Bo

Bo,

Nice try, but wrong. It is a well known fact, that since the beginning of time, that every dolphin on this planet has been and will always be a huge supporter of the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Witht the latest changest to college sports...the Cornhuskers will make Irish stew out of the Big 10 (or 11 or 12)...[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Terminus]

It's slightly amusing that some people seem to think that the "AI" is something that's somehow apart from the rest of the game, and that the two aren't intimately intertwined...[8|]