OT: Red Tails

[decaro]

Apparently this thread -- or something like it -- got back to the directors and a new Red Tails TV ad has been released.

[BrucePowers]

It was a better trailer. i am going to go see the movie when it comes out. I will try to write an objective review afterwards. I majored in physics, I know some of the flight scenes are aerodynamically impossible. I will give you guys a review of the story.

[mdiehl]

mdiehl is estimating an airplanes performance based on its service record in a completely adverse
enviroment (late war German airspace) without using this enviroment as reference. A classic mistake
which will always lead to incorrect results. Not for the first time I might add...

It is often the case that people areincapable of grasping the point. You, in particular, seem incapable of grasping the importance of logistics in strategic planning. Not for the first time, I might add.

Fielding an aircraft that you cannot logistically support is foolish if you have other designs that are easier to support and that otherwise work pretty well. Under the circumstances, producing the ME-262 was a substantial strategic error for two reasons. (1) It was not so much better than the other interceptors that it was worth the added cost, even assuming proper logistical support, and (2) it was markedly inferior as an interceptor to the late variants of the FW 190 and the TA 152 *because* it could not be properly supported.

Even when it was well-supported, it had a lousy flight profile with respect to the amount of time it could remain in the air and operate at high speeds. And at lower speeds, it was very very vulnerable. It was a great X-Craft. It was not a competitive interceptor design, even when compared to piston-engined a.c. that were available at the time.

The first REAL jet interceptors were the MiG-15 and the F-86. The jets that came before that were not that much better than the high end late WW2 piston engined interceptors that a combatant should count on them unless the combatant could provide the superior logistics required to support them.

[LoBaron]

Agree, the new trailer looks a bit better. You can see a lot of P-51Bs, so at least
they don´t seem to fly around with bubble canopies in ´43...

As for exploding trains or Mustangs turning on a coin, I will try to ignore and enjoy the rest.

[Smeulders]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

The only 10 min I remember being in the cinema watching a war movie when people actually got really silent were the first 10 min of Saving Privat Ryan. The rest of the film was as much Oktoberfest as in every other movie.

Actually there are a few, they are just seldom typical Hollywood stuff.
German movies like "Stalingrad", or "Der Untergang" come to mind. I was stunned for some time
after leaving the cinema.

Der Untergang is a punch in the gut and one of the greatest movies I've ever seen. There are scenes in there that'll haunt you for some time after you watch it.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

The only 10 min I remember being in the cinema watching a war movie when people actually got really silent were the first 10 min of Saving Privat Ryan. The rest of the film was as much Oktoberfest as in every other movie.

Actually there are a few, they are just seldom typical Hollywood stuff.
German movies like "Stalingrad", or "Der Untergang" come to mind. I was stunned for some time
after leaving the cinema.

Der Untergang is a punch in the gut and one of the greatest movies I've ever seen. There are scenes in there that'll haunt you for some time after you watch it.

Absolutely. Some scenes are so surreal and real at the same time that you could almost believe you know
how this must have felt.

I always regarded Bruno Ganz as a sensational actor, after Der Untergang I became just slightly afraid of him.

[Treetop64]

He is sensational. Ganz was amazing in Downfall, as was all of the cast. My GF was like, "Is that really Hitler?".

Several of the actors required a bit of "coercing" to play the roles of some of Nazi officials, particularly that of Hitler and Goebbels. Understandable, though some might argue that they wanted to be seen as simply not wanting to appear too anxious to play those roles. I disagree. I believe they genuinely had apprehensions about playing the roles.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Goebbels was absulutely fantastic (actor quality) in this movie. He looked, talked and behaved like coming out of a time machine *shudders*

[LoBaron]

Ulrich Matthes looks like death himself. Perfect for the role. Exactly the same empty stare as Goebbels.
The cast was definitely close to perfection.

I think I remember an interview with Ganz where he described extreme difficulties to return to his usual self as he
was so immersed in copying Hitler´s body language, speech and erratic unpredictable behaviour.
The only similar statement I remember from a movie was from Dustin Hoffman when he played the autistic in Rain Man.

[geofflambert]

You wouldn't be talking about the one where the IJN plane tries to drop a bomb on a car? The one where boys are playing baseball at dawn on a Sunday?

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: koniu

I hope it will not be another move that name shall not be spoken[:D]

[Halsey]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You wouldn't be talking about the one where the IJN plane tries to drop a bomb on a car? The one where boys are playing baseball at dawn on a Sunday?

[:D][:D][:D]

[spence]

You wouldn't be talking about the one where the IJN plane tries to drop a bomb on a car? The one where boys are playing baseball at dawn on a Sunday?

That's two different movies I think...didn't memorize every scene in the recent movie that shouldn't be spoken of but the first comes from that one and the second comes from some movie about half a century prior IIRC.

BTW I will watch the movie for momentary enjoyment; not with any hope that it will in every way accurately portray the historical record. The Tuskegee Airmen faced a segregated and racist United States for sure...I imagine they got that part pretty much right. But I have no faith whatever that the Hollywood moguls got all that much about the fight against the Germans right.

In my understanding, the Red Tails were assigned as bomber escorts. That meant they had to protect the bombers. If they shot the German fighters down or lured them away with sausage and grits would make no difference in the accomplishment of THAT MISSION. Any evaluation of how well they accomplished THAT MISSION would state that they accomplished it very, very well. But Hollywood is unlikely to act as if that accomplishment is sufficiently dramatic so I kinda think that they will add a little something dreamed up by some studio hack who once played "army" with the kids in the neighborhood.

[Halsey]

I think you're right,it's Tora Tora Tora .

The kids had been out drinking all night.[:D]

[BrucePowers]

Ok. Just back from seeing Red Tails. First impression, the CGI battle scenes were over the top, not as bad as in a couple of other movies I've seen but that is my opinion. The story line was ok, not great but ok. One of my biggest complaints, not every airplane that goes down explodes in a big fireball before going down. This was a war film not a love story. There was one but it was not over done. I paid matinee price for the film and thought I got my money's worth.

[LoBaron]

Thanks for the summary! I guess it turns out just as expected, not top league but
good entertainment.

[mdiehl]

One of my biggest complaints, not every airplane that goes down explodes in a big fireball before going down.

I had the same reaction. But on consideration, decided that if they had taken the time to show just how difficult it was to shoot down a single engine -- much less a B-17 -- the movie would have to be an hour longer just to make room for extended action sequences as each 109s firing pass takes a few more aluminum shingles off the group leader's Fortress.

I did enjoy the action sequence where the Red Tails shot up the airfield. I don't know how a P-40 gets the upper deck of a control tower to explode like that using only .50cal, but it would not surprise me if the Krauts were storing avgas in there, the clever bastages. As though they said "Hey, just in case some American P-40s decide to shoot up the airfield let's keep a couple of spare drums of hi-octane up here in the control tower."

But it's all good. Any time you get to see even fictional nazis burn it's a good movie.

[crsutton]

Courtland Milloys editorial on the movie in today's Washington Post. Pretty much says it all from my perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/red ... ml?hpid=z9

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Courtland Milloys editorial on the movie in today's Washington Post. Pretty much says it all from my perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/red ... ml?hpid=z9

That was exactly the impression I got from all the trailers up to the premiere... [:(]

Although Bruce above write that it was worth matinee price I will skip the cinema and wait fro DVD / BluRay and then watch it at home as rental...


Leo "Apollo11"

[spence]

My wife is pretty much of a liberal Dem (with a big D) and says she wants to watch this one (though she claims most war movies are depressing). Funny thing is that I've heard that war is not a good thing in most cases. [8|]I am fortunate that she also detests movie theaters so I guess I won't see this one til it comes out on DVD. Oh darn[8|]