NON-PH Openings

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Chickenboy
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Justus2

I wonder how much of the perception of Japan's ability to do wildly ahistorical expansion is also due to the fact that many of the recent Japan AARs use Scen2 or RA/BTS, which provide more forces up front. This lets the Japanese player leverage that foreknowledge to an even greater extent. I haven't played a full Japan campaign yet, but I have read a lot of AARs, and I have to remind myself frequently which mod they are using, compared to a 'stock' Scen1.

Having played both, I can say that I agree. Sc. 2 allows a much faster exploitation of early Allied weaknesses due to the prepositioned fuel and supply. The extra Guards LCUs are helpful too.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by wdolson »

The Ironman scenarios were never intended for a human player to play Japan. They give the Japanese extras to keep the AI going longer. Unless there is a drastic mismatch of player skill (with a much weaker Japanese player), it's gamey from the start to play PBEM with one of these scenarios.

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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Amoral »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: walkerd

Have to say I am becoming more interested in the non historical starts. Not one of my PBEM games have I ever, as Japan, done anything close to historical damage. In my last game I sank 0 BB's at PH (with 2 days of air attacks), and it took until mid 42 before I captured Singapore. Something I see more and more of, unless you do something non historical.

You see just as many Japan goes crazy games as you do Allies use the same perfect knowledge to slap the Japanese down games. I think what makes it look bad is that so many games do not go full term so you do not get to see what a "non historical" Allies player can do late war.

There is, at least to me, a difference between a non historical start and an abuse of the game engine (subjective term). I could never envisage playing a game where as Japan I would go after Saratoga, it feels so wrong on so many levels.

Agree, walkerd. I think most reasonable folks would concur.

I think reasonable folks would let someone play a computer game however they like without throwing shade.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

This is an intriguing idea but I have a hard time believing the Soviets would even think of fighting Japan (unless they were directly attacked) until 1944 at least. Probably 1945. They were fully occupied against the Germans, certainly throughout 1943.

But I like the idea of thinking "out of the box" for some kind of balancing factor.

Completely agree that historically this would be very unlikely. But no more so than some of the "normal" actions that Japanese players currently take based on 100% pre-knowledge of Allied capabilities both at game start and 100% knowledge of Allied force ramp-ups over the full period of the war (both arrival dates/places and unit strengths).

It's worth noting that while most people talk about the "Europe-first" doctrine as if it were some monolithic, unchanging rule, that was not the case. The initial Japanese successes were so astounding that Admiral King pushed for (and got) a modification to the plan in order to ensure that additional forces were diverted to the Pacific to defend the life-line to Australia. That included units originally intended for Europe.

The problem is the game engine does not allow changes like this to happen on the Allied side, so I'm simply suggesting that we look at an actual game mechanism that *could* be used to temper Japanese actions. Or at least to introduce an element of risk that is otherwise utterly lacking.

There's even a way to have the probabilities calculated using a built-in game mechanism - the Weather Map. Let's say that the Japanese player takes ahistorical action "X". Every week thereafter, the Weather Map would be checked and if all nine zones have an agreed in advance mix of weather conditions (i.e all nine "come up cherries" to use a slot machine analogy), then the Soviets Activate (this is easy to do - the Japanese player would be mandated to send a unit across the border or bomb something or whatever). If the Japanese player then performs additional action "Y", the number of zones reduces to 8 (thus increasing the probability), and so it would continue if and when additional ahistorical actions take place.

The interesting thing about this is it would not only add some currently missing risk, but in the event of an early war activation, it would make for a very interesting game since the Soviets are absent from the vast majority of PBEM games.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: walkerd

Have to say I am becoming more interested in the non historical starts. Not one of my PBEM games have I ever, as Japan, done anything close to historical damage. In my last game I sank 0 BB's at PH (with 2 days of air attacks), and it took until mid 42 before I captured Singapore. Something I see more and more of, unless you do something non historical.

You see just as many Japan goes crazy games as you do Allies use the same perfect knowledge to slap the Japanese down games. I think what makes it look bad is that so many games do not go full term so you do not get to see what a "non historical" Allies player can do late war.

There is, at least to me, a difference between a non historical start and an abuse of the game engine (subjective term). I could never envisage playing a game where as Japan I would go after Saratoga, it feels so wrong on so many levels.

Agree, walkerd. I think most reasonable folks would concur.

I think reasonable folks would let someone play a computer game however they like without throwing shade.

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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Lecivius »

ORIGINAL: Kull

It's worth noting that while most people talk about the "Europe-first" doctrine as if it were some monolithic, unchanging rule, that was not the case. The initial Japanese successes were so astounding that Admiral King pushed for (and got) a modification to the plan in order to ensure that additional forces were diverted to the Pacific to defend the life-line to Australia. That included units originally intended for Europe.

This is my thoughts as well. Nothing major, just something to ponder upon. I really do think the development team did a 4A job in putting this game together. I have a blast with it just the way it is. But, as with any such grand strategy game, people figure things out to the nth degree to get every erg outta the machine [;)]
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Amoral »

ORIGINAL: Kull
It's worth noting that while most people talk about the "Europe-first" doctrine as if it were some monolithic, unchanging rule, that was not the case. The initial Japanese successes were so astounding that Admiral King pushed for (and got) a modification to the plan in order to ensure that additional forces were diverted to the Pacific to defend the life-line to Australia. That included units originally intended for Europe.

The problem is the game engine does not allow changes like this to happen on the Allied side...

The Allied player gets massive reinforcement convoys (presumably diverted from Europe) if the Japanese player threatens to capture India, Australia, New Zealand, or tries a landing on CONUS.

Again the problem is foreknowledge. The Japanese player knows he can conquer all of India south of Delhi, and all of Australia North of Brisbane, with no risk of releasing the allied reinforcements.


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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Amoral »

What I would like to see is have the daily PP award be tied to the VP ratio. If the score is tied, then both sides get their allotment of 50 points (or whatever the scenario dictates). But as the ratio changes, one player gets fewer PP and the other gets more. So If Japan is up 2:1, instead of 50 each, the US would get 66 and Japan would get 33.

If you combined that with a Mod like Juan's that adds restricted units you can buy out and disband to fill up device pools you could have an escalating response to an Escalating Japanese threat.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Encircled »

I don't think its on for the Japanese to attack San Diego on Turn 0.

Everything else is probably on, though carrier hunting on Turn 0 is a definite no-no

Maybe Scenario 1 is now the fair way to play with PDU-off?
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Kull

It's worth noting that while most people talk about the "Europe-first" doctrine as if it were some monolithic, unchanging rule, that was not the case. The initial Japanese successes were so astounding that Admiral King pushed for (and got) a modification to the plan in order to ensure that additional forces were diverted to the Pacific to defend the life-line to Australia. That included units originally intended for Europe.

Aye. So the status quo for the Americans should reflect an astounded CinC and a heavily modified (read: increased) commitment for Pacific deployment of forces. MUCH greater than the pre-war / early war default "Europe First" approach was.

I think it should be possible for the arrival times for American LCU, ships, etc. to extend if the Japanese do not capture as much of the American lines of communication / threaten the shipping lines to Australia, etc. What if the Japanese threat to the American homeland was not so acute? Would King have gotten his fast-tracked Pacific reinforcements?

Suppose the Japanese focused on the British Empire, the DEI and China, leaving the PI, SoPac and Hawaiian islands alone? I could see an argument for the Europe First crowd holding sway and a less than historical commitment to the Pacific until the Third Reich was put paid to.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by mind_messing »

The solution is simple: tie extra reinforcements with the VP ratio rather than an arbitrary line on the map.

If the Japanese are massively outplaying the Allies in terms of VP's, then replacement rates of specific Allied devices and airframes increases by a percentage. These devices/airframes would be those being sent to Europe (IOW: overwhelmingly American squads/devices/airframes)

Make the relationship between VP's and extra reinforcement % exponential, so that massive Japanese success over and above what is historical leads to massive Allied reinforcement, but mildly better Japanese performance makes little impact.

This has interesting ramifications for Japanese strategy. Big VP gains (f.e taking China ) that currently throw Japan buckets of VP's cheaply would have a strategic ramifications - the Allies would get more material to regain the lost VP's.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by paradigmblue »

The only games I've played into 43 have been vs AI, so I'm not the best qualified to comment, but I'm not sure if I understand the complaints about allowing the non-historical first turn.

Yes, there are a lot of non-historical moves that the Japanese player can pull, including bombing the Saratoga at port. Yes, this is a blow to the allied player, but so was the historical Pearl strike. No matter how damaging the first 6 months of the war are - and they can be brutal for the allied player - it doesn't change the fact that by 1944 I'm not sure if it matters. In that year, the allied player receives the equivalent in reinforcements of the entire IJN. It's hard to see any gains that the Japanese player can make in 42 as anything more than relatively minor setbacks in 1944.

I do agree with Bullwinkle, however, that because the allied player has to wait so long to really contest the IJN, it can be demoralizing while the Japanese player runs roughshod over the map, especially because the Japanese player knows that they don't have to be cautious - they know that the allied player will not dare challenge the full KB until mid 43, allowing them to control the center of gravity of the game.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by paradigmblue »

To get back to the the topic at hand - when it comes to non-Pearl openings, how would you rate them? Which ones have we missed?

Manilla - Probably the most popular non-Pearl opening.
*Advantages - Has a good chance of destroying a good part of the USN submarine fleet. Also puts the KB in the middle of the action when it comes to conquering the DEI, allowing it to support the invasions happening across that theater.
*Disadvantages - No capital warships will be destroyed on the first turn, leaving every USN battle-wagon ready for service on Dec. 8th. With Pearl untouched, the allied player won't be trying to refill their Catalina squadrons on day 2. Leaves the Wake invasion relatively unsupported, and I think we've all seen this go badly for the Japanese player. If the allied player flies that Vindicator squadron to Wake on turn one, it can make life pretty unpleasant for the Wake invasion TF.

San Diego - A Gut-Punch to the allied player.
*Advantages - Pretty much guaranteed sinking of the Saratoga. There is no other first turn move that almost assures a carrier sinking, and losing 25% of the US carrier force on day one is crippling to the allied player. Puts the KB in position to do some damage to allied industry.
*Disadvantages - The KB has to make a very, very long trip home, which the allied player could potentially exploit with sub patrols. This also takes some pressure off other theaters, as the allied player knows that it will be an additional week before the KB shows its head. USN keeps all of its battlewagons.

Singapore - The Road Less Traveled
*Advantages - When executed correctly, this opening can destroy Force Z on the first turn. Puts the KB in a perfect position to support a Mersing Gambit or very early Palembang invasion. Also puts the KB in the position to raid Batavia and Soerebaja in the next two turns, making them unusable as bases.
*This first-turn path takes the KB through Dutch submarines, and when gaming this opening, I've found that one of my flat-tops will occasionally take a torpedo on the first turn. Also, I've found this opening to be incredibly unreliable - sometimes I sink Force Z, other times my KB strike hits other, less valuable targets. USN keeps all of its battlewagons.

Other potential openings:
Seattle - potential to sink two BBs, plus heavily damage the industry there.
Sydney - chance to sink a lot of shipping

What other opening moves have you dreamed up? Do you agree with the advantages/disadvantages listed?
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Chickenboy »

paradigmblue,

I see very little difference between hunting the Saratoga unrealistically in San Diego on turn one and hunting the other two Allied CVTFs in their known wherabouts. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Forego the PH and Manila attack, have a 2 CV CVTF split to bomb Saratoga at her moorings and have two more 2x CV CVTFs apiece go after Enterprise and Lexington in their last known location. On turn 1, with the attendant Allied disadvantages on that turn, the Allied CAP would likely be reduced and less effective than it otherwise would be.

I haven't done this-as I consider it gamey in the extreme-but if you're not playing any House Rules of any form and are merely playing the code, then I don't see any reason not to try.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The solution is simple: tie extra reinforcements with the VP ratio rather than an arbitrary line on the map.

If the Japanese are massively outplaying the Allies in terms of VP's, then replacement rates of specific Allied devices and airframes increases by a percentage. These devices/airframes would be those being sent to Europe (IOW: overwhelmingly American squads/devices/airframes)

Make the relationship between VP's and extra reinforcement % exponential, so that massive Japanese success over and above what is historical leads to massive Allied reinforcement, but mildly better Japanese performance makes little impact.

This has interesting ramifications for Japanese strategy. Big VP gains (f.e taking China ) that currently throw Japan buckets of VP's cheaply would have a strategic ramifications - the Allies would get more material to regain the lost VP's.

Sounds reasonable.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by kfmiller41 »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The solution is simple: tie extra reinforcements with the VP ratio rather than an arbitrary line on the map.

If the Japanese are massively outplaying the Allies in terms of VP's, then replacement rates of specific Allied devices and airframes increases by a percentage. These devices/airframes would be those being sent to Europe (IOW: overwhelmingly American squads/devices/airframes)

Make the relationship between VP's and extra reinforcement % exponential, so that massive Japanese success over and above what is historical leads to massive Allied reinforcement, but mildly better Japanese performance makes little impact.

This has interesting ramifications for Japanese strategy. Big VP gains (f.e taking China ) that currently throw Japan buckets of VP's cheaply would have a strategic ramifications - the Allies would get more material to regain the lost VP's.

Sounds reasonable.

Yes I agree, the only thing I would say is that if the Allies did add reinforcements earlier due to bad defeats (which I believe they would do if they had too) then later reinforcements would be less as after the emergency the Europe first plan would go back in effect.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

What other opening moves have you dreamed up?

A non-Oahu Hawaiian invasion would be interesting. No idea if it's possible, but having KB stick around and sweep the Allied fighters into submission while troop convoys capture several of the Hawaiian islands and build up the airfields. Fly in bombers and then bomb Pearl into oblivion and keep it that way.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by paradigmblue »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

paradigmblue,

I see very little difference between hunting the Saratoga unrealistically in San Diego on turn one and hunting the other two Allied CVTFs in their known wherabouts. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Oh, I agree. While I'm more in the Bullwinkle camp when it comes to House Rules, I do agree that first turn carrier hunting is something I think is distasteful - and I would include the San Diego strike as first turn carrier hunting.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Aye. So the status quo for the Americans should reflect an astounded CinC and a heavily modified (read: increased) commitment for Pacific deployment of forces. MUCH greater than the pre-war / early war default "Europe First" approach was.

Not "should".....it does. The forces in game - and their early war arrival - reflect the results of the "King shift".
I think it should be possible for the arrival times for American LCU, ships, etc. to extend if the Japanese do not capture as much of the American lines of communication / threaten the shipping lines to Australia, etc. What if the Japanese threat to the American homeland was not so acute? Would King have gotten his fast-tracked Pacific reinforcements?

Suppose the Japanese focused on the British Empire, the DEI and China, leaving the PI, SoPac and Hawaiian islands alone? I could see an argument for the Europe First crowd holding sway and a less than historical commitment to the Pacific until the Third Reich was put paid to.

There are a million alternatives, but there's only one WitP-AE. And it does not have a non-US entry option, nor modified reinforcement options, nor conditional VPs or any of the many otherwise good ideas presented in this thread. I brought up the Soviet Activation option not because it's a realistic idea, or even a particularly good one, but because it's part of the existing game structure, and thus a feature that could be utilized to address the very real issue Bullwinkle has identified.
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RE: NON-PH Openings

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

The only games I've played into 43 have been vs AI, so I'm not the best qualified to comment, but I'm not sure if I understand the complaints about allowing the non-historical first turn.

Yes, there are a lot of non-historical moves that the Japanese player can pull, including bombing the Saratoga at port. Yes, this is a blow to the allied player, but so was the historical Pearl strike. No matter how damaging the first 6 months of the war are - and they can be brutal for the allied player - it doesn't change the fact that by 1944 I'm not sure if it matters. In that year, the allied player receives the equivalent in reinforcements of the entire IJN. It's hard to see any gains that the Japanese player can make in 42 as anything more than relatively minor setbacks in 1944.

I do agree with Bullwinkle, however, that because the allied player has to wait so long to really contest the IJN, it can be demoralizing while the Japanese player runs roughshod over the map, especially because the Japanese player knows that they don't have to be cautious - they know that the allied player will not dare challenge the full KB until mid 43, allowing them to control the center of gravity of the game.

I've played two AI campaigns to 1945-46, but PBEM only to October 1943. I've played Japan against the AI for six months, long enough to see what the game looks like from that side in the expansion and economy set-up phase.

The problem under the design with your contention above is that, no matter how big the Allied reinforcements in 1944-45, to win the Allied player has to get an auto-vic. It's built in that way. To get an auto-vic in 1945 takes a 2:1 VP ratio.

The sources of VPs are destroyed planes, sunk ships, destroyed devices, held bases (in supply for added benefit), and strat VPs. Strat VPs can only be gained by the Allied player for destroyed industry in the HI. Of these wells of VPs, planes, ships, devices, and strat are "permanent" VPs that the other side can not regain once earned. Territory, however, can be flipped. And fully-developed territory in many cases with large, strategic targets such as Chungking, are worth massive numbers of VPs.

So what's the problem? It is true that 1944-45 Allied LCUs, especially armor, are fearsome and far exceed Japan's in quality. Note, however, that the loss ratio for gaining VPs is not 1:1 from the first move. Allied devices, less PI and Chinese types, are worth twice Japan's. And since the Allies must attack and attack and attack to win their losses tend to be pretty high when going against fully dug-in defenders. Allied replacement pools are fixed and cannot be gamed as Japan can with points.

Ships? Allied models in the late game are great. Better in every way than Japan's. But the sub war is not modeled well IMO; only a fraction of historic results are ever achieved by an Allied player. Japan players even turn off a great number of merchants early, never to be built, because the merchant marine is essentially safe from submarine devastation. Japan will lose much of its combatant core in 1944-45 in the normal course of a game, but many AARs show the KB still scurrying around deep in the rear in 1945, fully outfitted with 3rd gen air wings, and able to fly full sortie counts due to the game's non-modeling of av gas.

Planes? Japan can produce hordes. Yes, in somewhat historical numbers, but six years into the game's life the model mix and R&D tactics have been nailed down to a high degree of perfection. Every model in the game is there because Japan--in some cases stupidly--built it. In the game no JFB builds but a fraction of the array, thus saving massive amounts of resources and streamlining the late-war air force. Pilot quality, again due to training being funded by supply and not petroleum, stays at high, competitive levels, very unlike the real war's record of boys taking flight with only a few hours of flight school. The Allies, with fixed pools, must ration air power until very late else nothing be left for the strategic phase.

So that leaves land. Bases for VPs and bases for strategic bombing. A huge piece of an auto-vic VP total. And here is where the current level of 1942 mania comes home to roost. Because the further Japan can push the Allies back in the first year the longer it takes the Allies to just get back to battery, to get ready to wage the historic war. And the game's design in its prep point system presumes the Allies are NOT starting back from east of Midway in 1943, or from Juneau, or from Delhi, or from Perth. Prepping for a landing takes the best part of three months. On island battles with auto-shock attacks failing to have 100% prep, or at least something in the 70s, will cripple an ID for months even if the Allies win. And there aren't enough IDs until very late to run multiple axes across CentPac or up from the south. In reality did it take three months to plan a landing? No. Look at the record from Kwajalein to the Marianas. Six months. A vast expanse of ocean and many landings. It's do-able in the game if the Allies start from semi-historic lines. It's about impossible if 1943 is spent, once amphib ships are gained, just getting back Canton, and Baker, and fighting a huge Japan air presence in the Suva/Noumea theater. And with the over-powered Netty torpedo models in the game, without amphibs you're meat. X-anything ships unload far too slowly to get the job done.

Unless bases in range, either on the Pacific side or the China side, are taken, built, and supplied the strat war portion never happens. That is the true goldmine of VPs, and Japan has to prevent it at all costs if they plan to ride out the calendar and hold the Allies away from an auto-vic. And yeah, it's a lot easier to hold the Allies off if they have to spend 1942-43 pushing Japan out of India, or Oz, or Hawaii. The early game drives the late game. Over six years JFBs have learned to take the perimeter to fantasy places because even if they lose those land forces they still win the time game. For the AFB time is the relentless task-master. Every day he has to try to claw a little bit west, closer to where the 4Es can finish the job. That's historical. But the game's design in many aspects did not assume he'd start 1943 from where even very good players find themselves. The design is 7-8 years old now. But the player community has six years of experience. In short, 1942 really, really, REALLY matters.
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