The Italian Job 2- Gen.Hoepner(J)-vs.-Mc3744

[String]

Hm, don't turn down aircraft production. It doesn't take a lot of HI. a 2 engined plane takes 2.4 HI to produce, while a singleengined one takes 1.2 HI to produce, and that is together with the engines. As you can see it isn't much, and probably amounts to less than 3k HI per month. Considering the utter importance of aircraft production I'd suggest shutting down other less important industries. Ofcourse the soon-to-be-upgraded aircraft types which have large amounts in pool would be wise to shut down. But others, keep on producing, you never know when an additional 500 frames in the pool can come in handy.

[Andy Mac]

I just cannot believe its that bad in December 42 that you need to totally shut down.

KB is intact isnt it ? the Allies dont have Corsairs or P40N's or even P47's yet.

I just dont see rearward defence being that good an idea

By all means evac Australia and reinforce centpac but to totally evac Java and Sumatra and not even fight for Burma just seems premature.

Despite how it must appear he is very low on good fighters and ok he has a few heavies but not that many replacements I think you just need to take your knocks and put lots of fighters into the air against him.

They get 40 ish P38's a month and 40 P40's on CHS.

Andy

[hawker]

How you stand with points?

[Andy Mac]

Ah unless this is a game on the earlier version before the Allied Fighter replacements got emasculated !!!

In which case he may have a few more P38's

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/06/42



Hi String, for the moment i just turned off the Merchant Yards and some of the biggest Naval ones ( Musashi already come ). For what concerns planes i've stop repairing every -rd plane except for the Jack. Everything elseis turned on...for the moment.

Andy...look at the picture i post now. 18 units coming down from Imphal and today my units facing this bastards in Burma got slaughtered again by, nothing less than ...how many? 500 planes?...take a look at these reports please

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/06/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Magwe , at 31,29


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 22
PBY Catalina x 3
Hurricane II x 7
Spitfire Vb x 14
Kittyhawk I x 16
LB-30 Liberator x 46
I-16c x 71


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Magwe , at 31,29


Allied aircraft
Catalina I x 3
P-40E Warhawk x 24


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,29


Allied aircraft
PBY Catalina x 3
B-24D Liberator x 15


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Myitkyina , at 36,28


Allied aircraft
Wirraway x 27
B-17E Fortress x 46
I-153c x 48


No Allied losses

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 121

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Day Air attack on 65th Brigade, at 36,28


Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 57
B-17E Fortress x 48
SB-2c x 28


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 56th Division, at 35,90


Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 1
B-17E Fortress x 26
LB-30 Liberator x 8
B-24D Liberator x 56




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 33rd/A Division, at 31,29


Allied aircraft
PBY Catalina x 2
Wellington III x 22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 33rd/C Division, at 33,29


Allied aircraft
Catalina I x 2
Wellington III x 20
B-24D Liberator x 94


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Day Air attack on 131st IJNAF Base Force, at 83,116


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
SBD Dauntless x 4
Swordfish x 3
TBF Avenger x 4
Kittyhawk I x 16
Vengeance I x 4
T.IVa x 14
P-38G Lightning x 11


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Magwe , at 31,29


Allied aircraft
Beaufort I x 35
Beaufort V-IX x 14




How do you think i can defend my Burma perimeter? With what? Tonies? They'll be slaughtered...and his pools are more than full! He just told he has almost 500 P-40s...hundreds of 4Es...not to talk about b-25s and b-26....


Hawker...oints? 30,000 vs 9800....barely 3-1 thanks to chungking




However guys, KMS operation is underway. 18 units are coming down from Burma and i spotted ships sailing south from Diamond...so probably Port Blair will attacked very soon...gotta run!!!! I'll probably be forced to move my tonies from China to defend Singapore harbour untill my last units will be loaded. Anyhow i plan to defend for some days...probably 3 weeks Rangoon with the 25th Army, giving so the time to the rest of the Southern Army to evacuate towards Luzon.

In SOPAC and CENTPAC he's becoming confident. Now he's sending unescorted ships in the range of my Nells...today we sunk 2 APs that were loading a Seabeas group some 3 hexes south of Nanoumea atoll....
Munda is evacuating...but i'll play some decoy movements not to being spotted too early.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Nukufetau at 85,107

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
AP Ormiston, Torpedo hits 6, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*
AP Van Rees, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*


Allied ground losses:
76 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 4

[Gen.Hoepner]

.....

[Tom Hunter]

I would think that you have a great margin of ground superiority if you can move the troops in China to India.

Not that this can win you the game, but I have to believe that you can still hit back effectively. After all the Japanese launched an offensive out of Burma in 1944. I understand his 4 engines are dangerous, but they cannot be everywhere. Either he will concentrate them to stop your Burma offensive or send them somewhere else. If he does the former they are not supporting the CenPac advance, if he does the latter your land offensive will enjoy a greated degree of success.

Just my thinking.

[Gen.Hoepner]

No tom, unfortunately not. Some time ago MC asked for an house rule that would avoid any moving from China to Burma without paying pps. So there's no way i can move there my divisions...ah, if it was like that i wasn't retreating!!!

And about the 4Es....guys, probably you're not getting it...he has 500/600 4Es in Burma, 400 at Alice Spring ( OZ) and probably more 400 in CENTPAC...he has already upgraded all the available bombers to those monsters...every single US bomber group...they aren't dangerous...they are lethal!
Consider that a regiment at Mandalay last normally 5/6 days...then it must be rotated 'cause it gets from 100/100 to 40-50/100.....in one week!!!![:@]

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/07/42


The Yanks have put a foot in Burma. The Marine Para bn landed at Mytikina today. They found the base empty but already built up to level 4...i'm retreating everywhere[:D]

The usual iron rain upon my units in Burma...it's really getting a massacre...points for ground losses are going up at an incredible pace. I will probably end the 42 at 2-1[:(]

However KMS goes on as planned. Slowly but scientifically we're moving back our perimeter. The difficult task will be Oz and Burma....where he can easily see my movements



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Myitkyina

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 510 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 6 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied forces CAPTURE Myitkyina base !!!

[Andy Mac]

Gen,

I have never been in a game at this stage under CHS and with PDU so I dont fully appreciate your position.

But if he has 500 P40's in the pool thats crzy thats 12 + months production im lucky to have 20 at this stage how the hell did he stockpile that many so I dont know where he gets those fighters has he been avoiding combat the whole game ?.

As for taking on allied bombers yes he has lots and is using them (I dont know how he has so many but he does have lots) but that kind of effort has to be a maximum push and he must be building fatigue I dont know what state your fighters are in but surely if you maul him a few times he will back off.

A large portion of the bombers were lights and mediums as well as the big heavy raids but even heavies will turn back if faced with enough fighters I think I am beeing stupid and missing something perhaps Tonies and Tojos have been cut down in this mod ? (String massacred a few of my heavy raids using Nicks/Tonies and Tojos in our stock map game I only wore him down when I had 2 P38 Gps on escort)

If you really cannot contest the air against unescorted bomber raids in 42 then something is seriously wrong with the mod (or PDU's !!!).

Andy

[String]

IIRC he just uses andrew brown's map, not the CHS

Regardless, with PDU on you should have what.. 600+, 800+? Tojos, Tonies and Nicks..

Concentrate 5-600 into Burma and you'll put a stop to his air offensive for a while. The key with keeping airfields open is not just having enough fighters, but also having enough engineers to repair the damage done. I kept open Koepang vs Andys heavy air attacks solely thanks to the 6-700 engineers i had there embedded in my LCU's

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
I have never been in a game at this stage under CHS and with PDU so I dont fully appreciate your position.
...
If you really cannot contest the air against unescorted bomber raids in 42 then something is seriously wrong with the mod (or PDU's !!!).

This mod is not CHS. It is a conversion of a stock scenario for my map. The aircraft data is unchanged.

As for PDU, that is a whole new discussion...

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/42

He has now a strong foothold in Burma. I Had to move my fighters to protect Hong Kong and Canton, now reachable from Mytikina for his heaviests.
The KMS operation continue. THE WHOLE japanese transport fleet is moving everywhere. It's probably the biggest rescue operation since the retreat from Kuban![:D] It's enjoyable in a certain way[;)]. Von Meinstein would be pround of me[:)].
the 25th Army will form a new perimeter between Rangoon and Mouleim at first. Then, when the other units will be safe at Singapore, it will march all the way towards Hanoi, where will form, with the 1st Army, the final perimeter.
My plans for DEI and PAC are simple. The navy units will form the advanced line of defence. Tarawa, Kwejalain,Rabaul and Truk for PAC, Brunei, Tarakan, Kendari and Ambonia for DEI-SRA. Only SNLF and naval garrison units. The army will dig in in the back ( Luzon, Mindanao and Mariannas). It will take some time to get back in order...but it's doable.

In the mean while the iron rain keep on falling upon the retreating units in Burma, while my fighters training program is giving good results.

He's sub mining the solomons...lost a ML today[:(]...however when he'll decide to land here he'll find nothing but THOUSANDS of mines everywhere.[:D]

Tomorrow will start the difficult operations for the evacuation of some important units at PM. Will move back a CD unit, 1 AA rgt and one Air HQ.


Do not know what to do in China...Probably i'll go only for Ichang...let's see. However it's not a proprity anymore.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 257 encounters mine field at Tulagi (67,100)

Japanese Ships
ML Ma 2, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

[Gen.Hoepner]

Guys...Yes i have Tonies and Tojos. But in how many places can i put 800 of them? Just one, obviously. And the rest? If i defend Bankok, he'll bomb Hanoi or my bases in China where hundreds of Bombers are parked...and who will defend PM,Daily Waters and the Solomons? He has avoid any air attrition till now, just to have these incredible pools and be ready to smash me everywhere. We've already seen what he can do. 400 Liberators, higly skilled, cannot be stopped by just 100 Tonies...you need at least 300...and if he has in reserve more 200 4Es for the next day you're gonna see your base closed and your air groups slaughtered on the ground....exactly like at Daily Waters last week. No thanks.
I want to force him to risk something. And i want to gain time for space in order to estabilish a FORTRESS.
My perimeter is too big to be defended at the moment. I simply do not have the means to face him in 3 different points of my perimeter. I have to make it smaller and so it will be more easy to mass my forces and counterattack.

[String]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Guys...Yes i have Tonies and Tojos. But in how many places can i put 800 of them? Just one, obviously. And the rest? If i defend Bankok, he'll bomb Hanoi or my bases in China where hundreds of Bombers are parked...and who will defend PM,Daily Waters and the Solomons? He has avoid any air attrition till now, just to have these incredible pools and be ready to smash me everywhere. We've already seen what he can do. 400 Liberators, higly skilled, cannot be stopped by just 100 Tonies...you need at least 300...and if he has in reserve more 200 4Es for the next day you're gonna see your base closed and your air groups slaughtered on the ground....exactly like at Daily Waters last week. No thanks.
I want to force him to risk something. And i want to gain time for space in order to estabilish a FORTRESS.
My perimeter is too big to be defended at the moment. I simply do not have the means to face him in 3 different points of my perimeter. I have to make it smaller and so it will be more easy to mass my forces and counterattack.

Well, look at this this way, right now you aren't putting them anywhere either and you are giving up territory you cannot afford to give up. Burma serves one purpose and one purpose alone tbh. Okay two, one is to be a bufferzone vs allied heavies so they don't level indochina and malaya, and the second is to cut the burma road.

Retreat in the pacific all you want, but SRA should be holy until 44. But then again thats my opinion.

When you put 300 tonies on cap (this would require 400+ present in a base) AND a lot of engineers on the ground then the allies will have a tough time shutting your base down provided it's out of escort range.

edit: Anyway, you've let him into Burma now, so getting him out is out of the question now I guess.

[Tom Hunter]

I would also be looking for a chance to hit the heavies with shore bombardment in an island base. This would be tricky but possible.

On a different note it seems that PDU is really bad. Games with no Allied twin engine bombers are a farce, but then again so is tripling historical production of Zeros.

I just saw artwork for a P-80; being added to fight the Shinden, no doubt. Why not at F-15s too? Or let the Americans and Japanese build Me262s after all they both could have, at least theoretically. And where is the artwork for Superman and Captain America? I want them on my side too...[8|]

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: String

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Guys...Yes i have Tonies and Tojos. But in how many places can i put 800 of them? Just one, obviously. And the rest? If i defend Bankok, he'll bomb Hanoi or my bases in China where hundreds of Bombers are parked...and who will defend PM,Daily Waters and the Solomons? He has avoid any air attrition till now, just to have these incredible pools and be ready to smash me everywhere. We've already seen what he can do. 400 Liberators, higly skilled, cannot be stopped by just 100 Tonies...you need at least 300...and if he has in reserve more 200 4Es for the next day you're gonna see your base closed and your air groups slaughtered on the ground....exactly like at Daily Waters last week. No thanks.
I want to force him to risk something. And i want to gain time for space in order to estabilish a FORTRESS.
My perimeter is too big to be defended at the moment. I simply do not have the means to face him in 3 different points of my perimeter. I have to make it smaller and so it will be more easy to mass my forces and counterattack.

Well, look at this this way, right now you aren't putting them anywhere either and you are giving up territory you cannot afford to give up. Burma serves one purpose and one purpose alone tbh. Okay two, one is to be a bufferzone vs allied heavies so they don't level indochina and malaya, and the second is to cut the burma road.

Retreat in the pacific all you want, but SRA should be holy until 44. But then again thats my opinion.

When you put 300 tonies on cap (this would require 400+ present in a base) AND a lot of engineers on the ground then the allies will have a tough time shutting your base down provided it's out of escort range.

edit: Anyway, you've let him into Burma now, so getting him out is out of the question now I guess.

I understand your point String and i completely agree with you on the Burma's role ( keep open the gate for SRA), but they would have entered in Burma anyway. My units are at their 50-60% strenght aftern months of daily bombings by hundreds of allied monsters and how could i stop 18+ units coming down from Imphal below this umbrella? Burma was lost when i abbandoned the plan for a mini-hangover in April. If i could march my chinese divisions to Burma that would be another story...also here i do not understand why i cannot do that while he can let his destroyed chinese units spring up again at Karachi and come back to Burma...[&:]

As i see it now the it's like we were in late 44 and not late 42. The situation is very similar in Burma. Japan sent to the meatgrinder every ship-plane-man it could effort, while i care for my assets, so i'll try to play an elastic defence ( remember what Hoepner told to Hitler when he has been removed?[:D])

Another year...that's what i ask.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I would also be looking for a chance to hit the heavies with shore bombardment in an island base. This would be tricky but possible.

On a different note it seems that PDU is really bad. Games with no Allied twin engine bombers are a farce, but then again so is tripling historical production of Zeros.

I just saw artwork for a P-80; being added to fight the Shinden, no doubt. Why not at F-15s too? Or let the Americans and Japanese build Me262s after all they both could have, at least theoretically. And where is the artwork for Superman and Captain America? I want them on my side too...[8|]

Hi Tom,

shore bombarments? i would need some recon and he's keeping his 4Es at at least 10 hexes of distances to any of my forward bases...i'll be spotted and torn in pieces by his CVs and by his land based bombers.
I do not have a problem if you force me to have only 100 zeros per month. Japan's problem isn't the pool! Is pilots number! While for the allies is the opposite.

However here' s the map of operation KMS

[Andy Mac]

OK this is a game under the pre allied Heavy Bomber nerf so its unsurprising you are seeing hordes of heavies B17's got heavily reduced as did LB 24's (and only one gp get them I think even under PDU)

So it doesnt help you much GH but in stock scenario games in future the allies will need to use 2 engined's again (I suspect PDU's with ahistorical fort and LB24 production is hurting you in this game.) from memory they reduced B17 production by 2/3's to about 16 a month.

I would also talk to MC about Chinese Units if his entire China army has just reespawned in Karachi without his having to pay PP points for it I would suggest that those units still atttached to China Command should either

1. Stay in Karachi until PP points are paid to transfer them to SEAC.

or

2. only be allowed to move to a specifried air transit base for transfer to China.

If he disagrees I would suggest some of the restrictions on Japanese Army in China need to be relaxed.

Andy

[Gen.Hoepner]

Sorry Andy..i cannto reply to you right now...later...

Just to give this news: a quite big transport TF is approaching Nukufetau ( see map ). I'll try the gamble. All my CVs will move at fast speed from Tarawa to intercept it. No DD as escorts as they are low with fuel. Very risky 'cause i'll be in the range of his heaviests from Fiji...but at this stage i take the gamble. 4 CVTFs, leaded by Abe,Yamaguchi, Nagumo and ...do not remember:-). Max speed. Nells at Tarawa ready to strike. Bombardment TF leaded by Takeda refueled today and will start to move tomorrow from Tarawa. Let's see if i can sink some APs full of troops[:D]...no sign of enemy carriers.

Who knows...maybe i get lucky once in a while[:o]

gotta go now.

Stay tuned