The Italian Job 2- Gen.Hoepner(J)-vs.-Mc3744

[Gen.Hoepner]

( As always, this thread will be off limit for Mc3744[:'(])


Hi all,

as promised , here's the rematch of my personal struggle against Mc3744. As most of you already know, my first attempt of defeating the allied western powers ended up in a crushing defeat for the imperial Armies of Mikado, due to my lack of aknowledge (sp?) of the rules connected to allied 4E bombers and consequently a completely wrong strategy.
This match will start as soon as v.1,5 comes out, but in the meanwhile i'd like to study and analyze the strategies for the upcomming deathmatch.
The tactics i used in the first attempt won't be usefull anymore, cause i cannot hope to catch offguard him again on the same points( I.e. : fast KB raids in the southern pacific against his cargos, big german-like encirclement battles in china, fast conquest of Singapore etc etc). Exactly like me he learnt a lot in our previous battles!
That's why i have to discover and try something completely new.

First of all the exploitation of surprise.

In tha last match my raid against PH was all but effective. Could not sink any BB, even if a lot of them were badly damaged and so out of order for few months. As we all know, the repair rate of allied dockyards is probably too strong, so i have some concerns about the real goodness of the PH adventure. An average of 25/30 crack pilots usually die in PH due to the strong Flak and op. losses and i've tried on my own skin how important are those 90 exp pilots.
So, i'm thinking of something different. And the only alternative choice would be Manila with its 66 ships( most of them subs).
I've made some wargames at Manila on dec 7th and in all of these attempts i could not sink more than 22/25 ships for a score of 150 VPs.....not a treasure! But the loss of pilots is low...very low: 5 pilots in the worst result!
But under a strategical point of view the "Manila switch" would have more important consequences. The presence of the KB in the seas of DEI will mean its absence in the eastern Pacific...where his 3 CVs would be free to raid my TFs heading for Wake,Tarawa or Rabaul..... but having the KB supporting the operations in the PI will surely help to conquer Luzon and Mindanao very fast, avoiding allied ships to get out and escape........ PH or not PH, that is the question!
For what concerns Singapore and Malaya, i'm quite sure he'll evacuate Z force towards India. He won't do the same mistake of trying to get his men out of Malaya by railway.....so a long siege of Singa is on the horizont. Given these facts as fixed, i'm thinking of diverting some forces from Malaya and push fast towards Rangoon, in order to get to Burma asap(2 divs+ 1 mixed bde).
The idea is to take Rangoon asap, then concentrate on Rangoon and then try an effort towards India. Not something big like operation Hangover (PzB), but something limited to the triangle Diamond Harbour,Chandupur and Calcutta, in order to provide, for the future, a deep defence of Burma and Indochina....something to be finished by the end of May....

Well, still a lot to say......i'll provide more infos as soon as my simulations(H2H) will advance.

[kaiser73]

well, i usually sink 2-5 BB on PH (but i stay there 2 turns).

I always wondered if PH is really worth the effort. However, at the end i always came to the conclusion that letting all the BB untouched can be costly. 6 BB ready to operate from day 1, expecially given the bombardment effeiciency in WiTP, means you problably will lose more in the first 6 months.

India, well, the best defence is either go to conquer all India or stick with Burma. Bombay Calcutta...he can move troops fast through rail while you will have to move by sea. so how can you defend there better than just staying on Burma?

[pauk]

greetings...

i would second kaiser thoughts about PH, i always go for it. Probably you already know it, but... set all kates to port attack (vals goes to the airfield attack)... also, some players set kates lower then 3.000 ft and it seems that they got better resultes (never tried this before, but it seems reasonable because allied flak is reduced at turn 1). I'm gonna certantly try this method (experiment, and if it work i will try in future games. I'm also well known[:'(] as player who carefuly deals with my elite pilots, but since ground attack works well as fast training mission (and you also have several high experienced groups back in japan) i could sacrify 10 or little more pilots for sinking some BB's at PH.

Need to be mentioned, my little discovery about transfering pilots from "reserve" (high exp) groups to CV groups will be also useful in 1.5. Why? We know that we can transfer pilots from pool to ac group which we want in 1.5, but this pilots can have less exp than existing ac at the group.

So, lets say you want to fill up your CV to the maximum strentgh to 115 % (114) to keep she fully operational.

You have full daitais on the CV, so you want to add 3 additional ac and pilots to the group (ac will go to reserve, pilots will rotate on their mission so less fatigue will be accumulated). Move high exp. chutai to the empty base (without base force) and wait till only 3 ac left ready. then, move them to the CV ac group and disband them in this group. You will now have wanted strentgh of group. woila:).

(then move base force to damaged fragment, "heal them" and you can disband them in daitai on the front which already suffer some casaulties)

of course, this method allows you much more posibilities which you can discover by yourself in H2H experiment (while you waiting for 1.5 patch) [;)]

sorry if you already know this and using this method. [;)]

[AmiralLaurent]

One way I have found to not empty my IJN pilot pool too fast is to not use pilots to fly reserve planes. In bases where several units are, I keep one and will disband all fragments in this unit. Then if it is possible I upgrade this reserve unit and it will receive only the right number of planes so won't need more pilots. I use it for all Nells units.

Another trick is to send the Southern Area Claude understrenght unit to Japan and to disband one of the Home Defence units in it.

The usual result of a PH attack is a BB sunk but more interesting are the 150-200 points scored by destroying planes. Also all the BB damaged will be out of war for several months and won't bombard you in this critical phase. On the other hand, sinking 20 subs in Manila on day one is totally unrealistic. PI forces were on alert and few subs were really docked.

My main idea as Japan is how to use the four divisions starting in Japan. I use them together with BB and CV support and they are my main weapon.

As for China, since v1.4 Japanese success are not so easy IMOO. I consider it as a secondary theater. My goal here is to stop the Chinese supply. So I sent troops to besiege Yenen, but not really to take it (I succeeded in one PBEM anyway as my opponent retired). And I build forts on all the frontline. Once forts are level 9 somewhere I move troops and will then build a mobile army to launch attacks. The goal of these attacks is to kill Chinese troops, not to conquer China.

[Tom Hunter]

I seem to be the poster boy for a strong China at least on the AARs right now. I have treid to go after Japanese fortress cities in the past and gotten nowhere.

Recently I have been lucky, Blackwatch sent a large army into the interior of the country where it met my own large army. Now he is trying to get it back home alive. But once we are back on the rail line we will be fighting on his terms and I doubt I will be able to accomplish much, though I am going to try.

I think its possible for either side to successfully play China to a stalemate and I suspect that is what will happen in my game with Blackwatch and perhaps in your next one Gen. H. I don't think China will ever get quiet, but it will all be sound and fury signifying nothing. Somewhere Stillwell is laughing at this post.

[tsimmonds]

If you do stick around to hit PH a second day, try using some of the vals to attack the repair yards. If damaged they will slow down his repairs of his damaged ships, they are themselves expensive to repair, and you get strategic VPs for hits on them.

[Gen.Hoepner]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate this school-like discussion[:)]

A soon as i get home from office i'll comment each of your posts.
Just one quick word on Chinese strategy...
With 1.4 we all know that it's a tough job for the japs to conquer China. I'll try to do something different from our last game, where i engaged a sequence of encirlement battles around Changsha. This time i'll try to send a decoy force to Changsha, with the only pourpouse to force him to mass his forces in the south . The same attempt will be done at Yenen, where another decoy Army will fake-siege the city. At the same time all my remanant forces will be deployed in the middle of China, ready for a deep push forward Ichang and then Chungking ( using Andrew Map Mode i hope). If i manage to get this deep penetration in the heart of the Chinese Empire , his forces will be cut in 2 ( north and south) and this should unbalance his whole defence.

BTW...just free thoughts[:'(]


See you later with more detailed posts

[String]

Trying to put your own head into the noose eh? What would prevent him from routing your forces at Changsha and Yenen and then proceeding to encircle your "deep penetration"

[Fornadan]

Even if you are not cut off, attacking Chunking will likely bind up a huge amount of troops for a long time.

If you want to do something diffrent, it might be better to concentrate on conquering northern China first.

[PzB74]

Good luck Hoepner! Should be a good one, but I expect that you fight to the end this time - I've read quite a few 12/41-8/42 AAR's by now [;)]

I would always hit PH - it disrupts the Americans and takes out many important ships. The 'Mini KB' can handle things in the DEI and Phillippines themselves.
Why don't you invade India this time [:'(] Then we'll see how easy it is when your opponent is aware of the danger <G>

[Gen.Hoepner]

Ok, back from office i'll try to answer and make some more considerations.


KAISER wrote

well, i usually sink 2-5 BB on PH (but i stay there 2 turns).

I always wondered if PH is really worth the effort. However, at the end i always came to the conclusion that letting all the BB untouched can be costly. 6 BB ready to operate from day 1, expecially given the bombardment effeiciency in WiTP, means you problably will lose more in the first 6 months.

India, well, the best defence is either go to conquer all India or stick with Burma. Bombay Calcutta...he can move troops fast through rail while you will have to move by sea. so how can you defend there better than just staying on Burma?

While the PH affair is still under heavy testing, i can say something for India-Burma:
In our last match mc3744 managed to hold Akyab( while the rest of Burma was mine till Mitykina), and from there he started to pound my bases and troops in Indochina, destroying HIs, Oil plants and a LOT of planes on the railways( especially at night).
His liberators used to take off from Dacca or Chandupur. I discovered on my own skin that you cannot hope to advance beyond Mytikyna if the allies hold the skies and are well fortified behind the hills. My idea is to land somewhere on the eastern coast of India and close a big pocket around the troops holding Burma. If Chandupur-Calcutta-Diamond can be secured, these bases will provide an forward defensive perimeter for Rangoon-Bankok-Hanoi industrial triangle. Another aspect is that holding the line from port Blair to Diamond Harbour means that the Bay of Bengals is closed for the RN.
The real point in this matter will be the timing. I need to get on singapore quite fast in order to be able to land 5 divisions in India...probably the last good date would be April. Later i'd need much more units and i do not want to concentrate too much in India.

Now time to speak about China.

The decoy sieges i've in mind should be strong enough to prevent the chinese any advance. I'd say 90,000 men for Changsha and robably 100,000 for Yenen.
Probably the best would be to advance towards changsha first, leaving the North quite. Show him that i want to take Changsha-Wuchow line and force him to mass his armies here in the south. If this bait works i should have at least 3,000 assault point free to take ichang ( which has a weak starting defence and poor supplies ) and then penetrate towards Chungking. At this moment, the threat over his main city should be enough to force him to move back his garrisons in the south, giving free hands to my guys to take those important industrial cities without suffering any big losses ( or industrial destruction). I want to avoid any real attrition battle in China!

Now for PH....

Tonight i'll make some more tests ( after Juventus- liverpool [:D]), but the results of my last 5 simulations were all close. In 5 attempts i sunk 1 BB at maximum, badly damaged 3 and lightly touched 2. In 3/4 months these monsters will be operative again.
The average loss of pilots is between 20 and 30.
But the real key i think is the strategical one. Taking PH on the first turn means that the KB will operate in the southern pacific for at least 2 weeks. The chances of getting the 2 allied CVs in the area are very weak, at least if he doesn't make any big mistake. In my last match, after a vain search for those 2 CVs , my KB had nothing to do there.

If i went for Manila, he will be free to raid over my invasion TFs at Wake and Tarawa.....scrumbling my eggs. the Mini KB would not be enough to face 2 allied CVs down there... In the other hand, the KB in the PI means that he cannot evacuate anything from there and even force Z will be forced to move back fast towars India and not daring to menace my landings in Malaya...

I'm considering another solution: split the main KB and let 3 CVs go for Manila, along with 2 CVEs comming from Japan, while the other 2 CV will cover the landings at Wake and will stay in the eastern pacific to operate as a "fleet in being", forcing the allies not to come out from PH.... Gotta play some more tests for this[:D]

One last thing before i go.
The landings for the first week should be:
-Wake
-Guam
-Tarawa and Makin

-San Marcelino
-Vigan
-Aparri

-Jolo

-Mindanao

-Borneo ( still to decide which bases )

-Songhia
-Khota Baru


Rabaul and the solomons will be invaded as soon as some close air support will be available.


Tonight more thoughts....

Thank you all for joining this discussion[:)]

[AmiralLaurent]

Splitting KB is always a bad idea. If you want to give more punch to mini-KB, send the slow Kaga with it. This brings mini-KB to around 200 CV airfract. Add CS for search duty and merchant ship sinking and you have a 250-plane TF that is able to resist the Allied LBA, while you have still 300-planes with your KB able to win any CV battle in the first months.

If you have only 2 or 3 CV in Pacific, they may face 3 US CVs in the end of December 1941. You opponent is probably able to count up to 3 and if he sees fleet CVs off Malaya and other in Pacific may take the risk to attack early in Pacific.

As for Burma, I think that Japan should take Akyab, Mandalay, Lashio and Mitkynia. If you go farther and land in India, then you have to go to the kill and try to take it with all your forces. You will lose a limited campain here and will have to commit too much forces to be able to have another major push elsewhere.
Akyab is for me a target like Port Moresby. A place that may be taken by land but is far more easy to take by sea, except the Allied LBA that is able to defend it. So any sea landing needs major sea, CV and air support. But I think it is worth it (more than PM).
By the way, Burma and Indochina are about 3-4% of the economy of the Empire so they are not worth a major operation to save them IMOO. The DEI are far more important and the threat of Allied operations from Australia to DEI is really important in WITP (more than in RL, due to the easy logistics in Darwin area).

In your China strategy, I don't understand why you send more men to Yenen than to Changsha. 90 000 Japanese in Changsha will be defeated in some weeks by the gathered Chinese from the area (mostly 100% prep for this city). But I agree that Ichang is the weakest spot in the Chinese defence.

[Gen.Hoepner]

Good points Amiral, thank you.

I take what you say about the KB splitting. You're right about the risks in pacific waters.
For what concerns Akyab and India......
In our last match, mc3744 overcommitted his forces in Burma and i really thought about these little hangover operation. But then, due to a mutual agreement i let him retreat from his positions near rangoon, so that, after 2 weeks he had the 18th UK div at Akyab and by the end of March all the bases in the triangle between Chandupur,Dacca and Diamond, full of bombers and fighters....i counted 450 enemy planes up there...probably too much even for my crack KB pilots...so i dropped that operation.
Now it depends on how he's going to play. If he doesn't commit too much in Burma, he'll probably place his 2 first UK divisions in the area around Chandupur, so a landing will be a suicide....but Akyab will be less defended, so probably, if i manage to keep Rangoon AF open, a landing there , under a strong CAP umbrella would be possible.
Otherwise if he goes for Burma, i'll defenetly land up there. Those big AFs in Eastern India were my BIGGEST nightmare during the last match. From there he pounded every single day my troops and bases in northern burma and forced me to abbandon all the AFs at Mandalay, Mytikina, Lashio and so on..... Rangoon was closed by the hordes of Night bombers taking of from India....was almost impossible to fight in those conditions.... I MUST find a solution for that situation!

About China...i probably expressed badly my thoughts. I meant that Changsha and Yenen were alternatives. I need a decoy army to send as a bait. North or South doesn't really matter. Probably another chance would be to get Yenen first, then move my south divisions towards Changsha and at the same time give him the impression that i want Sian...so he will deploy his armies in these two areas ( Sian and Changsha area ), so that i should be ready to push towards Ichang

[PzB74]

The main reason for my invasion of India was the idea of being bombed to dust in from Burma and India.
Push the front to Chandpur, and you'll still be bombed from Asansol and other bases 'further up' - so I knew I had to go all the way.
Perhaps there is an alternative, but that's up to you. Fighting a war on several fronts make the job of Jap supreme commander
more perilous for each month that passes.

Personally I must admit that it feels SO good to be rid of those annoying tommies on the flank [;)]
I'm not very happy about conducting large land bases operations in WitP - but sometimes it can't be avoided from my point of view.

A reinforced Mini KB around the Phillippines is probably a good idea - from my point of view it's important to hit Pearl and close the
sealanes from the US for a while. Even 4 cv's in this area will do the job. Detach the Soryu's for the Mini KB?

[Alikchi2]

If I was you - and I'm not an experienced Jap player, but just a thought - I'd use 4 CVs for commerce raiding in SOPAC/CENTPAC area (the US-Australian convoy line) and the other 2 to support operations around the PI at the outset. That way you won't get overwhelmed by US carrier power.

I like advancing further into India, but I think it would better be accomplished by simply sending more forces into Burma and advancing by land than by a risky amphibious invasion. You could probably pull a couple of divisions out of China and accomplish this quickly, if you're fast enough.

The other big operation I would try - I've been wanting to do this for a while - is to advance more quickly in the Tarawa - Baker - Canton area. If you take enough bases, you can have a few that are out of effective B-17 range and still astride convoy routes. (I'd pick Canton, it's sufficiently isolated - but you'll need to take bases around it that can be built up to heavy bomber level, too.) If you can accomplish this quickly, before the route is secured, you can really slow down the Allied player's overall pace, and maybe force an early head-on collision with the USN - possibly in your favor.

Just a thought. [:)]

[PzB74]

The 4 cv's in the Central Pacific is a good idea, but they may suffer losses if the Allied player wants to risk his 2-3 US carriers.
In my Allied WitP game I exchange Devastator torpedo bombers for extra dive bombers and fighters to make them more potent in early 42.

Moving into Baker, Canton and other islands is a valid tactic, but the problem is that you extend your supply lines and as soon as the
balance starts to shift in late 42, it will become very difficult to defend them all. If you place your good garrison troops into forward bases,
they will most likely be lost and make your more central bases in the Gilberts, Marshalls and Solomons more vulnerable.

What I think is important, and what I manged in UV to a certain extent, is to pick at the Allied fleets with superior force as long as possible.
This will delay the inevitable day that the US fleet will achieve complete supremacy of the seas. Probably sometimes between mid 43 and 44.

My strategy in India enabled me to take out the RN and the enemy counterstrike against Java cost them a lot of valuable ships.
This has left me with a naval superiority that cannot be broken until mid 43 at the earliest. Just wait and see how the Allies will be forced to operate
were the Combined Fleet is not... [;)] And that's the key!

[Gen.Hoepner]

Welcome here Alikchi![:)]

A long "All India- Campaign" is out of question. He knows what you PzB have done to Wolbby....and surprise was everything for Hangover, right?
In my thoughts, the vertical line that starts from Diamond Harbour can give the jap the chance of develop the rear Burma bases enough to be able to defend from the massive bombing campaign RAF is planning for late 42-43. Normally, when Japan takes Mandalay the british have already well fortified at Imphal and on the other bases on the mountains, from where they can launch night and daylight constant bombings....from which there is no defence in the long run.
But again...it all depends on how much he will commit to Burma in the first 2 months....

For CENTPAC...Canton Island is the Big Key for this sector....i know. In our last match he started to regain some bases , using Canton as the major offensive base. The point is that it's going to be tough to keep it supplied and to build it at a decent level. More....you need to have your CVs constatly parolling that area of the ocean in order to keep the american invasion away, but as soon as the KB will be called away in some other areas ( for the conquest of PM for example...) , i'm quite sure the allies are going to land here...and you cannot hold that forward base!

I think Japan has to chose where he wants to concentrate its forces. It's a waste of resources to open too many fronts that you cannot hope to defend.... Again i do not know where to go exactly[&:] Tonight came to my mind the idea of taking Darwin as soon as the little Hangover will be ok.....a deep defensive perimeter around DEI, from Diamond Harbour to Darwin.....and in CENTPAC not going much further than Tarawa in the Mashalls , Lunga in the Solomons and Lae in NG..... Just another idea

My overall plan is still a "work in progress", so excuse me and forget if i say stupid things[:D]

Thanks again[&o]

[AmiralLaurent]

Using KB for commerce raiding is a waste of time IMOO. You really need your CVs to backup you main operations. WIth KB around, the Allied surface ships won't come to play and so your surface TF can blast Allied airfields at will. Also the Allied LBA is far less dangerous (and took much more loss).

In Pacific, I don't try to hold islands but rather to advance in force from time to time, capture Allied troops and delay the building of airfield. Each day you own a Pacific island is a day during wich Allied engineers are not working there.

The idea being to defend islands with only a NLF/SNLF, so a raid will not take them but Allied have to come with some force. And to have 2-3 Div, ships and planes at a base nearby, outside B-17 range and counter-land to crush Allied attacks if possible. So you can delay Allied advance in Pacific until the arrival of the Essex or the defeat of KB, whatever cames first.

Another possibility to cut Oz from USA is to attack New Caledonia and New Zealand. This is not atoll war, so may be easier to take Allied fortress and it is worth a lot more points. Seizing Noumea means that Allied loses 1200 points... so Japan scores 4800 points towards auto-victory. Then NZ if worth 2000 other points... and most players strip NZ from troops to send them elsewhere (Noumea, Port Moresby, Oz or Pacific Islands).

In my two current PBEM games as Japan, I quickly seized Timor and All NE Australian bases. The idea is to take these areas before they are reinforced and to surround Java so Allied air units should leave the area or be unable to evacuate. In the same time I took every small AF around. I use the whole 16th Army (2, 4, 16 Div) and in one of the PBEM also the 56th Div for this operation.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent


Using KB for commerce raiding is a waste of time IMOO. You really need your CVs to backup you main operations. WIth KB around, the Allied surface ships won't come to play and so your surface TF can blast Allied airfields at will. Also the Allied LBA is far less dangerous (and took much more loss).

In Pacific, I don't try to hold islands but rather to advance in force from time to time, capture Allied troops and delay the building of airfield. Each day you own a Pacific island is a day during wich Allied engineers are not working there.

The idea being to defend islands with only a NLF/SNLF, so a raid will not take them but Allied have to come with some force. And to have 2-3 Div, ships and planes at a base nearby, outside B-17 range and counter-land to crush Allied attacks if possible. So you can delay Allied advance in Pacific until the arrival of the Essex or the defeat of KB, whatever cames first.

Another possibility to cut Oz from USA is to attack New Caledonia and New Zealand. This is not atoll war, so may be easier to take Allied fortress and it is worth a lot more points. Seizing Noumea means that Allied loses 1200 points... so Japan scores 4800 points towards auto-victory. Then NZ if worth 2000 other points... and most players strip NZ from troops to send them elsewhere (Noumea, Port Moresby, Oz or Pacific Islands).

In my two current PBEM games as Japan, I quickly seized Timor and All NE Australian bases. The idea is to take these areas before they are reinforced and to surround Java so Allied air units should leave the area or be unable to evacuate. In the same time I took every small AF around. I use the whole 16th Army (2, 4, 16 Div) and in one of the PBEM also the 56th Div for this operation.

I agree with you in most of your analyzis, but i can say that KB raids against BIG allied convoys can be a real pain for the americans. In the last pbem match in 3 different raids i managed to sink 300 allied cargho ships, 2 CVs, 10 CAs/CLs and 20 DDs....including 3 bombers squadrons and some troops..... but now he knows this tactic, so i won't use it anymore.
If i will take Canton Island in the first weeks of operations, i plan to leave there a small base force, 2 naval guard units and a CD unit. Nothing more. The point is that to defend Canton you need to build up Tarawa and fulfill it with troops, as you said. At the same time if you place 2 or 3 divisions in this area, the solomons will be uncovered....so i think it's a matter of choices.
I prefer to let New Caledonia alone. Those loooooooooooong supply lines really scares me!

The more i think about an early conquest of Northern Oz, the more i like the idea.....
But it's impossible to do everything at the same time.
For the second phase ( after the fall of Singapore and Manila and the conquest of Borneo and of Macassar Straight) i will have to decide where to go.....
the possibilities are :
- Mini Hangover ( Eastern India ), and so go for Java and Sumatra in a second time
- Timor and Northern Oz ( Darwin ), and so going for DEI in a second time
- Port Moresby,( this probably can be done simultaneously with the conquest of Java)
- Java and Sumatra first, then think about the other possibilities...


And what about the Aleutinas? Is it worth to get there soon? In our last match he built up Siska quite soon and started to threaten my positions on Paramushiro Jima...

[kaiser73]

Burma has few resources and few oil. You will spend more (in units/supplies/fuel/ship losses) to take Diamond and Chandpur and to defend them than what you lose in Burma.

Just ignore Burma is my advice. Conquer it and then let the allies bomb the resources if they wish to. after all, Burma is important only to cut China from supplies.
Committing 4 divisions to conquer Diamond and Chandpur and then have them there for the rest of war to defend from UK...it seems to me a lot for the goal.

For the KB, it depends what you plan to do in Pacific. i always thought KB should be used to support operations rather than go looking for Allies CV. But why you think you need the entire KB for Philippines? you have plenty of AIrcrafts and Baby KB.