Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Adanac's Strategic level World War I grand campaign game designed by Frank Hunter

Moderator: SeanD

SMK-at-work
Posts: 3396
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 8:00 am
Location: New Zealand

RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Post by SMK-at-work »

I think counter-battery is wrong - IMO arty should not be able to kill enemy artillery - that should be accomplised by over-run.
 
counter battery work was complicated, and actually was the aim of almsot the entire air war over the front (I did a paper on it at Uni a long time ago...fascinating stuff but alas I dont' have it any more :()
 
Certainly in real life counter-battery was important..more so from about 1916 onwards when aircraft recce really started to be useful (mainly due to aerial photography)....but it was something that usually only accompanied an attack.   Attackers would make a big effort to identify enemy batteries and KO them - but the counterbattery work would be in the few days before an attack only - not on-going.
 
this was only partially effective earlier on.....firing indirect required r"registration" which required a few shots to be fired to spot their fall...but the target might hten recognise their danger and move.  By 1917 the allies had developed "silent registration"....accurate maps and aerial photography meant they could lay their guns reasonably accurately without firing a shot so teh target would get no warning before H-hour.  It wasn't as accurate as properly registered fire, but this could be partially offset by firing more guns than you would normally - thus increasing the beaten zone and the chances of getting a few hits.
 
The reason for counter-battery was so that defending guns would not get their defensive fires.....ie pre-programmed fires on likely routes for attacking infantry in response to flares from front line positions.  The defender would try to keep his batteries "masked" ie cammo'ed and not firing so they didn't get recognised, and so could fire when the infantry came over.  Artillery barrages on attacking infantry were utterly devastating.
 
By 1918 the Germans were mixing their counterbattery ammo as 20% HE, and 80% gas......KO'ing guns with HE was simply inefficient and ineffective.  Gasing the general area at least forced gunners to wear gas masks, greatly reducing their efficiency and often killing their animal draught.
 
It was capturing ground that killed artillery...eg the allies lost 1300 guns against St Michael in 1918.
 
So For GOA I'd like to see artillery having NO effect on enemy artillery at all as the simplest solution.  Combined with artillery being lost if over-run IMO this would produce the correct effect.
 
A more accurate model would be defending artillery firing at attacking infantry before combat with the defending infantry, and attacking artillery "neutralising" some of this defensive fire.  but I suspect that would be a bit too complicated to code just now!!
 
So I propose several changes that I think could be accomplished within the current structure.  the idea of these is to make artillery useful without having the ability to completely destroy all enemy forces in a hex as it has now.
 
1/ No counter-battery fire - artillery is destroyed solely by being over-run
2/ Increase the stacking points of arty units to 2
3/ Decrease the strength points of artillery so they are the same strength as their tech level (so initial arty would be strength 1).  Those nations with 2 pt arty currently would get a modifier to their arty fire making it less effective at any given tech level.
4/ Decrease the cost of arty points (since they're going to be less effective) so maybe 5 or even 6 per production point.  by the time people research up to 3 and 4 pt artillery they'll be facing 3 and 4 point trenches IMO, so the cheaper shooting will be at least partially neutralised by more extensive protection.
5/ I'm inclined to think that Siege arty should have no effect except on fortifications - only small numbers of the very heavy siege guns were made eg only 4 of the 420mm Big Bertha's, but even 1 or 2 such guns could destroy a fort eg see http://tinyurl.com/2rgxmr for how 1 300mm howitzer destroyed an Italian fort with 3 shots...including 2 ranging ones!! )  Certainly they could be and were used against normal entrenchments, but in that context their effect was probably lost among the 10's of thousands of rounds fired from smaller guns.....ie each round was jsut as devastating, but wasn't really adding much to the barrage due to the sheer volume of smaller fire - Big Bertha fired a max of 8 rounds per hour, the Austrian 300mm howitzers could fire about 20.
 
 
 
 
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
Joel Rauber
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Brookings, SD, USA

RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Post by Joel Rauber »

I say that we see what the minor changes Frank mentioned in another thread do. And after playing V1.2 a while, then we bombard him with ideas.

(Assuming our artillery still works in that version.[:D] )
Any relationship between what I say and reality is purely coincidental.

Joel Rauber
SMK-at-work
Posts: 3396
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 8:00 am
Location: New Zealand

RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Post by SMK-at-work »

He hasn't mentioned all the changes he's testing!! :)
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
Joel Rauber
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Brookings, SD, USA

RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Post by Joel Rauber »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

He hasn't mentioned all the changes he's testing!! :)

Touche,[:)]

Not being a official tester, I am naturally not privy to all that is being done. I suppose I may be eating my words. At any rate, I'm enjoying this game a lot. Its probably the most interesting WWI simulation I've ever played, which goes back to when AH first published 1914 (a mighty pretty map that one had); assuming we don't count miniatures.

I'm looking forward to enjoying the new changes and seeing how they work.
Any relationship between what I say and reality is purely coincidental.

Joel Rauber
User avatar
kcole4080
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:14 pm

RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Post by kcole4080 »

Counter battery work had become the partly job of the air arm by 1917.
This from Arthur Gould Lee's 'No Parachute', where his 46 Squadron, newly equipped with Camels, were taskd with counter battery work during the opening stages of the battle of Cambrai.

Even in poor flying conditions, they proved quite effective: very low clouds (at 50 to 100 feet), not to mention smoke from the battle made conventional spotting impossible, but tactical bombing knocked out the majority of the guns in their sector: 5.9 guns in Lateau Wood on the first day, on the right flank of the tank attack, then proceeding to soften up opportunity targets.

I think limiting the number of arty units per hex, and the increase in trench building capability may solve the problem.
User avatar
kcole4080
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:14 pm

RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Post by kcole4080 »

Another point: the AI does not use killer arty stacks to my knowledge, nor do I, since it's not a realistic tactic.

NOT slamming anyone, but many game fixes are to prevent players doing wildly ahistorical things in the course of a game. Sure, it's imaginitive, but it feels like cheating the rules to me. I enjoy trying to find historically realistic ways to get around the challenges posed in games.
After all, it's what draws us to the game in the first place, the interest in the historical puzzle, so why circumvent that in a way that destroys the 'feel' of the game? It seems counter productive: trying to enjoy a historical simulation, but trying to play the game the way it is obviously NOT intended.
Just my 2 cents![:)]
User avatar
esteban
Posts: 618
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:47 am

RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Post by esteban »

I'm still of the opinion that artillery is too strong in this game.  When game-winning moves are revolving around decisions like "I won't rebuild these 5 corps so that I can order another 2 artillery units and buy 12 barrages for them to use"  that's grossly ahistorical. 
 
At the very least, I would suggest that buying barrages not ramp up from 2 barrages per industry point to 3 barrages per point. 
User avatar
kcole4080
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:14 pm

RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

Post by kcole4080 »

Perhaps, but in my games, which I try to play a balanced, long term strategy, I can usually only buy half a dozen barrages per turn. Many corps are hammered to single & low double digit strengths after an assault, so they need to be brought up to some kind of defensible strength. Dip pts need to be bought to forstall Italy's entry.
Those very expensive HQ pts need to be bought, & I've even forsaken the fleet after the first strat. phase to try & bolster the crumbling A-H's against the Russians.

R&D can't be ignored either,and  besides, that's a major part of the fun of the game!

I did buy either 4 or 5 arty units on the first opportunity, since it seemed a good idea before all the casualties piled up, but they're spread out at only two to a hex maximum (not including the siege pieces).

I prefer to have four strong corps if possible in a crucial hex, since the Froggy counter attacks can dislodge you fairly easily if you haven't got any trenches yet.
Post Reply

Return to “Guns of August 1914 - 1918”