Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice

[SteveD64]

So my wily opponent has created a gigantic artillery stack that is vaporizing my infantry (it's only 1914 so trenches aren't in full bloom). I lost 49 strength points in one attack so in revenge I scraped together a couple corps and assaulted his hex. I won obviously but because you can't actually kill artillery units I'm now adjacent to his killer stack. I decided to retreat back to my original position.

Artillery alone in a hex has basically unlimited stacking and cannot be killed, which is bizarre.

Any counter measures?

[FrankHunter]

Trenches are the best counter-measure.  But as you say, its 1914.  They are limited by stacking to a degree but the big issue in 1914 would be available reloads. 

The new 1.2 returns the rule allowing artillery to be overrun instead of retreating.

[SteveD64]

I like the sound of this new patch!  
 
I guess in the meantime I create my own invulnerable super stack. 

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

Trenches are the best counter-measure.  But as you say, its 1914.  They are limited by stacking to a degree but the big issue in 1914 would be available reloads. 

The new 1.2 returns the rule allowing artillery to be overrun instead of retreating.

That makes more sense to me. Artillery alone in a hex should be easy pickings for a ground assault.

[SteveD64]

No kidding!  I could've bagged like 5 artillery units.  [:@]

[pat.casey]

Even so, it does seem like the single most efficient way to use your industry is on artillery and reloads.

1 Industry is 5 infantry
1 Industry is 3 barrage point

1 Barrage will kill, on average, a lot more than 5/3 of an infantryman.

[SteveD64]

Yeah, in an AAR I'm reading it seems the Entente player has stopped refitting infantry and is only building artillery and air units.  Seems like a good (if ahistorical) plan.  Artillery seems a bit, um, over-powered.

[EUBanana]

I think artillery should be good and devastating, but it should be a complementary thing.  Historically artillery superiority was kindof a must if they were going to get anywhere.  Combined arms and all that.

The idea of stacking hexes with just artillery and then devastating the enemy is surely wrong.  I think artillery should definitely be vulnerable to being overrun.  Perhaps some formula to determine it based on how soundly the attacker wins in the hex, then if someone is really having a laugh with zero infantry there, when the attacker comes in and massively outnumbers the defence as a result the artillery can suffer big time, whereas if there was at least some defenders there maybe the artillery can get away with it.

I do think that the way arty works at the moment is generally good though, you certainly get the idea of bleeding in vast amounts just to hold ground, which IMO is the way it should be.

[FrankHunter]

I probably tended to use more trenches in my testing than some of you. 

Just to explain my thinking on the subject, it was apparent that trenches were constructed deeper and deeper into the ground to avoid the effects of modern artillery.  In 1914, before the trenches really got going, artillery was extremely effective.  Even in the Franco-Prussian War it was German artillery that won those battles in spite of the advantage the French had with the chassepots.  Be making artillety powerful, I found it provided the reason to build trenches and that that reasoning was historical.

The game is obviously being played far more now than we were able to in testing so all of your feedback on whether artillery is too powerful is more than welcome. 

Perhaps trenches aren't effective enough against artillery?

[SteveD64]

Just to throw out some ideas-  possibly increase the stacking value for artillery?  Create a "law of diminishing returns" for artillery?  Increase the purchase costs for barrages? 

Anyway, the overrun rule should really help.  The artillery rules probably won't need tweaking after that.

EDIT: Frank, about trenches, yes that is one possiblity and I think the most elegant solution.

[Rob Brennan UK]

I like the idea of diminishing returns for what its worth. Stops the uber-stack of killer artillery and with the new over runs (1.2) should prevent player abuse (which is what it is imo).

Maybe an idea of stacking with max 1 arty per hex ? (no diminishing returns) so hexes in a bulge will be very vulnerable but fronts a lot less so.


just my 2p

[hjaco]

The only tweaking i think necessary is to increase the benefit of trenches towards artillery a bit. Another way to go around this is to allow for entrenching more than one level per turn - it's just way to difficult to get and maintain high levels of entrenchment as it is now.

That will also create incentive to research higher artillery tech which is not really needed as it is now.

[hjaco]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

The idea of stacking hexes with just artillery and then devastating the enemy is surely wrong.

Ahh well that strategy of Ulver is going to be proved working first [;)]

If i were his enemy i would stage an all out campaign against France no matter what the cost else where.

But thats just me of course [:D]

[Sardonic]

I DONT think arty is too powerfull. In fact in certain instances, I think it is too weak.

The examples where arty REALLY kicked ass, is where a barrage caught an assault formation, forming up.

In both WW1 and WW2, the infantry were simply slaughtered.

Nor do I think that Barrage is too expensive. I think it may need to be MORE expensive.

Now Arty landing on a dispersed formation, in trenchs, minimal impact.
A 12 day barrage, landing on dispersed infantry, a profound psych effect, if minimal tactical.

Also, in a war where Arty is pulled by tractor, and infantry advances on foot....
A battery would easily get away.

[freeboy]

I tend to agree with my friend above, Artillery seems to be about right, trenches seem to reduce the attacks to njormative.. although I am not sure, does art attacks cause losses to readiness? seems that is where we may direct our focus, no?
 
regarding artillery being over run, surely cavalry and tanks would get them, what about historicalresults in the 1916- 1919 period? I admit I am at a loss on that one.. anyone better informed than myself?

[hjaco]

By the way Frank - why isn't there a limited number of available artillery units to create for each country ? With a limitation on number of corps there should be a restraint on artillery as well ?

[hjaco]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I tend to agree with my friend above, Artillery seems to be about right, trenches seem to reduce the attacks to njormative.. although I am not sure, does art attacks cause losses to readiness? seems that is where we may direct our focus, no?

Yes units loose readiness. The worse the quality the more they loose. That's just fine as it is now.

As mentioned i think to best solution is to increase the pace you can create trenches in.

[*Lava*]

This is a difficult subject...

But if artillery weren't a big killer...

...it wouldn't be WWI.

As for overrun... dunno. When you consider the battlefield, filled with shell holes and trenches, seems like it is highly improbable that you are going to overrun artillery.

I believe a more historic way to go is increasing the effectiveness of counter battery especially against a dense target. Thus, if a dude wants to stack all his artillery on one hex, he would be far more vulnerable from enemy artillery that is better dispersed.

Ray (alias Lava)

[SteveD64]

Holding a hex with nothing but artillery units is pretty far out of line with history.  As it stands now there is no incentive to stack infantry units with artillery because artillery simply cannot be killed by enemy infantry.  There has to be a reason to use combined arms and the overrun rule sounds like a solution to me.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I tend to agree with my friend above, Artillery seems to be about right, trenches seem to reduce the attacks to njormative..

Have you played the War Without End scenario?
Even level 3 and 4 trenches don't keep artillery from doing 10-12 sp per impulse, about 30 sp per turn. At 2,000 men per sp that seems like a lot for even high level trenches. And the other drawback is that you can destroy 1 level of trench per ipulse but can only build 1 level per strategi phase. So while you may have level 4 trench researched you can easily be prevented from ever getting to that level.